Provoke is nice to keep the aggros on my softcapped, 75% or more pseudoresist self and off my much squishier robot buddies, who leap to my defense.
If you can hold agro on your MM rather than let the pets take hits, then incoming damage is first mitigated by your defense/resitance and then divided up to 8 ways. The builds that do this will also have very high self protection values-- some combination of defense, resistance, self heals, and regeneration. This means that your pets last longer and ultimately so does the MM; every pet that dies will lower your DPS, for which ultimately -hp (enemy death) is the most potent mitigation on spawns, and you then must invest endurance and valuable animation time in re-summoning mid combat rather than healing, buffing, debuffing, or attacking.
However, Provoke is VERY overrated on these boards because many players don't understand what the taunt effect does. First, Provoke has terrible values and requires a hit check, which means that you must commit to socketing both taut duration and accuracy. Very few builds I've seen actually do this. Second, you must also take attacks to inflict damage to generate threat that is then multiplied by the taunt effect in Provoke. Debuffs, mezzes, and proximity also generate threat. See here for details: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Taunt_(Status_Effect)
I have seen so many players rave about their Tankermind builds, when the truth is that Provoke is doing very little to hold agro after the alpha strike because they also lack attacks and debuffs that generate threat.
So, let's say I have my Bots/Traps. I give him Provoke. I also take all my Rifle powers.
Here's a mob. The alpha strike is taken by Seekers. Traps are laid down. Now I start blasting and taunting.
I am more effective in both survivability and DPS than I would be just twiddling my thumbs and waiting for my Bots to go down.
Did I guess right? Thanks for working with me here.
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Because running after fleeing enemies sucks.
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Originally Posted by Tesla_Rogue
Please forgive my ignorance but I just can't wrap my noodle around this one, despite all the guides advice. To taunt is to gather all aggro on you. That's bad, isn't it? You want the aggro on your expendable minions, right? I do understand the shared/divided HP (hopefully) but still. If I go down, everyone goes down. If a Drone goes down, I just build another one.
Currently, I play a Bots/Traps named Dr. Preposterous and love it. He's 46 and in PvE, I can handle high level mobs. He has no sets just yet, as I'm saving my pennies. I'd love to understand this but... |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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I prefer the debuffs of Web Grenade and Electrifying Fences as a more endurance-effective way of generating additional threat.
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Originally Posted by Tesla_Rogue
So, let's say I have my Bots/Traps. I give him Provoke. I also take all my Rifle powers.
Here's a mob. The alpha strike is taken by Seekers. Traps are laid down. Now I start blasting and taunting. I am more effective in both survivability and DPS than I would be just twiddling my thumbs and waiting for my Bots to go down. Did I guess right? Thanks for working with me here. |
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My exact methods, and they work a treat. I did take an attack though, because with inherent fitness, I could.
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Originally Posted by Katie V
I prefer the debuffs of Web Grenade and Electrifying Fences as a more endurance-effective way of generating additional threat.
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Just to provide a contrary data point...I have it 6-slotted with Perfect Zinger on my Merc/Poison.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
First, Provoke has terrible values and requires a hit check, which means that you must commit to socketing both taut duration and accuracy. Very few builds I've seen actually do this.
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Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
Not ONE person in this thread has mentioned Bodyguard mode, THE reason you take Provoke.
Bodyguard mode splits all incoming damage between you and your pets, the equivalent of having a boatload of damage resistance so long as you have all of your pets out. While you're busy taunting and soaking damage, your pets are busy shooting things to death and soaking damage.
To be in bodyguard mode, your pets must be on Goto/Defensive or Follow/Defensive.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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This.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Not ONE person in this thread has mentioned Bodyguard mode, THE reason you take Provoke.
Bodyguard mode splits all incoming damage between you and your pets, the equivalent of having a boatload of damage resistance so long as you have all of your pets out. While you're busy taunting and soaking damage, your pets are busy shooting things to death and soaking damage. To be in bodyguard mode, your pets must be on Goto/Defensive or Follow/Defensive. |
It is the reason why you would/should take Provoke in the first place. Without BG you will be faceplanting much more.
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Heh, guess I shoulda been more clear when I posted upthread about having 75% or more of pseudoresists. I was referring to BG mode, but wasn't clear at all now that I read it again. Thanks for bringing it out into the open Nalrok!
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Not ONE person in this thread has mentioned Bodyguard mode, THE reason you take Provoke.
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That's pretty much the gist of it.
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Originally Posted by Tesla_Rogue
So, let's say I have my Bots/Traps. I give him Provoke. I also take all my Rifle powers.
Here's a mob. The alpha strike is taken by Seekers. Traps are laid down. Now I start blasting and taunting. I am more effective in both survivability and DPS than I would be just twiddling my thumbs and waiting for my Bots to go down. Did I guess right? Thanks for working with me here. |
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You might not understand the scale of the divided damage, though. The others have explained it, but let me throw some numbers on you.|
Originally Posted by Tesla_Rogue
I do understand the shared/divided HP (hopefully) but still.
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Base MM HP at level 50 is 803. I'm at work, so I don't have the exact HP numbers for pets, but Minion HP at 50 is 430, so let's go with that just for an example. So your setup looks like this:
You: 803
Battle Drone: 430
Battle Drone: 430
Battle Drone: 430
Protector Bot: 430
Protector Bot: 430
Assault Bot: 430
Total HP Pool: 3383
That's a lot of HP to play with. Let's say you're up against an EB or AV with a big attack, like Total Focus, that does a whopping 1200 damage. If it hits you and you don't have BG mode on, you're dead. If it hits a bot, only the bot's dead, but you have to spend some time resummoning and possibly upgrading, and in the meantime you have less firepower or support, depending on who died.
But if you have BG mode on and you taunt the AV so it hits you with Total Focus? Well, with BG mode, you take 2 shares of damage and your bots take 1 share each, so that's 8 shares total. 1200 damage/8 shares = 150 damage per share. You take 300 damage and your bots take 150 damage each. Everyone survives.
By spreading out the damage, you vastly reduce the effectiveness of the attack. And because you're an MM, you probably have buffs or heals to repair that damage, or even mitigate it in the first place. That's the power of proper tankerminds.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Also, if you have a resist shield, that applies to the damage first and the remainder is shared amongst you and your pals. You can achieve silly levels of survivability sometimes.
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Of course, the obvious downside is that AoEs that normally just go "plink" on something with high HP can do up to 7x normal damage to you by hitting all of your HP sources at once.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
That's a lot of HP to play with.
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Also:
Minions: 575
Lieutenants: 770
Boss: 965
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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True. At that point I guess you just have to hope your mitigation holds out.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Of course, the obvious downside is that AoEs that normally just go "plink" on something with high HP can do up to 7x normal damage to you by hitting all of your HP sources at once.
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Also: Minions: 575 Lieutenants: 770 Boss: 965 |
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Because most pets are so fragile that you want the heavy aggro on you. You are Robot so you also get some defense from Protector. |
Originally Posted by Tesla_Rogue
Please forgive my ignorance but I just can't wrap my noodle around this one, despite all the guides advice. To taunt is to gather all aggro on you. That's bad, isn't it? You want the aggro on your expendable minions, right? I do understand the shared/divided HP (hopefully) but still. If I go down, everyone goes down. If a Drone goes down, I just build another one.
Currently, I play a Bots/Traps named Dr. Preposterous and love it. He's 46 and in PvE, I can handle high level mobs. He has no sets just yet, as I'm saving my pennies. I'd love to understand this but... |
I don't like taunting as MM. I hate letting my pets run wild and I don't like taking hits when my pets are supposed to take hits for me. However, my favorite set like Necro and Ninja are so freaking fragile that they can't withstand one hit from higher level mobs. I find resummoning and upgrading equally as annoying.
Bodyguard is supposed to "guard" you while you are under some unfortunate attacks but with pets dying from AoE attacks left and right, you either taunt aggro to yourself or rely on your teammates to take aggro.
I know Provoke works well on Tanker-mind MM but that's not how I envision my Mastermind. My pets are my weapons and shields and they do a pretty bad job on it at lvl 50 and at higher level setting. I only play Necro and Merc btw.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Outstanding! |
Originally Posted by Bosstone
You might not understand the scale of the divided damage, though. The others have explained it, but let me throw some numbers on you.
Base MM HP at level 50 is 803. I'm at work, so I don't have the exact HP numbers for pets, but Minion HP at 50 is 430, so let's go with that just for an example. So your setup looks like this: You: 803 Battle Drone: 430 Battle Drone: 430 Battle Drone: 430 Protector Bot: 430 Protector Bot: 430 Assault Bot: 430 Total HP Pool: 3383 That's a lot of HP to play with. Let's say you're up against an EB or AV with a big attack, like Total Focus, that does a whopping 1200 damage. If it hits you and you don't have BG mode on, you're dead. If it hits a bot, only the bot's dead, but you have to spend some time resummoning and possibly upgrading, and in the meantime you have less firepower or support, depending on who died. But if you have BG mode on and you taunt the AV so it hits you with Total Focus? Well, with BG mode, you take 2 shares of damage and your bots take 1 share each, so that's 8 shares total. 1200 damage/8 shares = 150 damage per share. You take 300 damage and your bots take 150 damage each. Everyone survives. By spreading out the damage, you vastly reduce the effectiveness of the attack. And because you're an MM, you probably have buffs or heals to repair that damage, or even mitigate it in the first place. That's the power of proper tankerminds. |
Thanks all very much for the advice and numbers. It's a good thing I'm half way done with the Perfect Zinger set. A respec awaits.
Please forgive my ignorance but I just can't wrap my noodle around this one, despite all the guides advice. To taunt is to gather all aggro on you. That's bad, isn't it? You want the aggro on your expendable minions, right? I do understand the shared/divided HP (hopefully) but still. If I go down, everyone goes down. If a Drone goes down, I just build another one.
Currently, I play a Bots/Traps named Dr. Preposterous and love it. He's 46 and in PvE, I can handle high level mobs. He has no sets just yet, as I'm saving my pennies.
I'd love to understand this but...