epic matters as well - for example, my illusion/kinetics recently took stone mastery, and he will be able to easily cap S/L def with rock armor with the help of a reactive armor set in tough. same for ice mastery with frozen armor.
i'm still trying to figure out what to slot weave and rock armor with though that isn't luck of the gambler.
50: Ill/Kin(A+,R,J)-1047 badges RE/Dark(A) Fire/Elec Warshade BS/Regen Necro/Poison Ice/Fiery(A+) Son/Son Bane(A) FM/DA(A) DM/Nin Grav/Icy
lvling: Inv/EM DM/Sheild Arch/MM Bane NW Elec/Earth Grav/Elec Elec/FA Rad/Ice
Paragon Elite/Rogue Elite Joined Oct 2004
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There are a number of differences of opinion. Personal Defense allows you to survive longer. While a small amount of Defense doesn't do much, if you can build up a lot of defense, it is very effective. For example, farming Fire/Kins often try for the softcap or close to it so that they can plow through foes without worrying about mez powers for self-protection. But to get at or near the soft-cap, you have to really focus on building up sets with lots of Defense. Slotting for high defense means careful planning and that you will need to sacrifice some ability to control and/or some team-friendly powers. |
Originally Posted by AnubisForm
Hi,these are powers that I have never even touched the whole 15 months plus of playing this game.How are they normally slotted on trollers?How much does it make a difference in the squishyness of a troller besides being a mule for -Kb.Yes this is for the dreaded fire/kin but i also want to see if they work in my Earth/Storm and fire/rad as well.Thanks for any input
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Personally, I haven't taken the Fighting Pool on any of my (many) controllers. I prefer my controllers to, well, control. A foe who is mezzed can't attack you . . . and can't attack any of your teammates, either. (Whereas, personal defense protects you and only you.) I would rather faceplant a few times than give up powers that make me a more effective teammate. I would rather have debuffs and buffs than personal defense.
Yes, it is far easier now, with inherent Fitness, to fit in the three powers from the Fighting Pool, but it still means giving up three powers that could be doing something else. Boxing or Kick is a waste of a power pick. Tough and Weave are boring toggles. Yes, I can see where being softcapped is effective and desireable. If you have a controller who only solos, I can see it being a good choice. I can see where the Fighting Pool can make a farming character more effective. I may try it some day. But for now, I only use the Fighting Pool on Scrappers and Tanks. Softcapping a Scrapper or a Tank fits in with that character's role.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
i should have mentioned my illusion/kinetics/stone build with S/L capped is a solo build. its not even soft-capped yet and doing really well. i'll cap S/L and then pile as much ranged def without reducing damage output so i can jump in -> flash -> blind boss -> FS -> Fissure -> seismic smash for awesome damage 
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for a team build there really isn't a reason to get the fighting pool.
50: Ill/Kin(A+,R,J)-1047 badges RE/Dark(A) Fire/Elec Warshade BS/Regen Necro/Poison Ice/Fiery(A+) Son/Son Bane(A) FM/DA(A) DM/Nin Grav/Icy
lvling: Inv/EM DM/Sheild Arch/MM Bane NW Elec/Earth Grav/Elec Elec/FA Rad/Ice
Paragon Elite/Rogue Elite Joined Oct 2004
I have an illusion/FF.
I have low damage potential, but I took, Kick, Air Superiority and Flurry.
Sounds silly maybe but Im at least doing more damage and I love being in melee, and yet...I just dont like the melee toons out there.
But I do love Tough. I wont take weave because of my build, but beating your hands on your chest and yelling, and then beating things senseless in melee after stunning them is super fun!
To agree with Local man, I would not do this with many other trollers, but with Ill/FF I find it great
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For your Fire/Kin, the fighting pool could possibly be squeezed in, but I would think the Fire/Rad and DEFINITELY the Earth/Storm would have even more endurance issues trying to run them.|
Originally Posted by AnubisForm
Hi,these are powers that I have never even touched the whole 15 months plus of playing this game.How are they normally slotted on trollers?How much does it make a difference in the squishyness of a troller besides being a mule for -Kb.Yes this is for the dreaded fire/kin but i also want to see if they work in my Earth/Storm and fire/rad as well.Thanks for any input
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My opinion on the fighting pool is they are powers I really like to add to my characters, but after having tried them on every type of Hero AT and gone without as well, I am dubious about how useful they become.
For instance, on a Controller or Defender you can get over 60% resistance to S/L by combining Tough with an Epic Shield. That is a very noticeable amount of protection. However, this does NOTHING to help you avoid mezz effects, which are the bane of any squishy AT as far as I am concerned. The end result is that an epic resist toggle will do plenty to help "toughen up" your character. You just will not have that resistance when de-leveled below 40.
Then there is Weave. A great way to get some defense, but requires you to take two other "dubious" powers. Granted Tough can be a decent set-mule, the same can not be said about the attack you are forced to take, unless you 4-slot it with Kinetic Combat. Weave will actually help you avoid "mezz" attacks, but for 2 less power picks you can take Maneuvers which does nearly the same amount of defense, but for your nearby teammates as well. Add in Hover and/or combat jumping and you are doing even better on defense, while using less endurance (than combined tough/weave).
My instinct says that you do not really want the extra endurance issues with your mentioned combinations, but without seeing the builds, that's just a guess.
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Adding defense (and potentially soft capping) will immensely add to your toon's survivability. It will allow your toon to take on tougher foes that you normally could not handle. So if you decide to take them slot them like you would on any other AT.|
Originally Posted by AnubisForm
Hi,these are powers that I have never even touched the whole 15 months plus of playing this game.How are they normally slotted on trollers?How much does it make a difference in the squishyness of a troller besides being a mule for -Kb.Yes this is for the dreaded fire/kin but i also want to see if they work in my Earth/Storm and fire/rad as well.Thanks for any input
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With that said I would advise you to consider not taking them if you plan on investing in IOs. None of my controllers that I have soft capped (or close to it) took the Fighting pool at all! Its possible with the right build and IO selection to soft cap without sacrificing your build with poor power selection or poor slotting.
As for the controller combos you mentioned I could see a Fire/Kin and Fire/Rad benefiting from soft capping to S/L, especially to mitigate the alpha when your controls are down. I don't see it benefiting Earth/Storm that much, but that all depends on your play style. Earth/Storm has several powers that can be activated out of Line of Sight (LOS), I just don't see the need on this combo. If I were investing IOs in my Earth/Storm I would looks at building for recharge with a secondary focus on +recovery/+end sets.
Hopefully we have answered your questions. Best of luck with your builds.
Softcapping S+L makes any /kin much more fun in my opinion. It lets you play with your kinetic powers (fulcrum shift) much more aggresively against groups that toss granades, like the Council, or use pbaoe powers like footstomp, a lot. It avoids soooooo many stuns. My fire/kin troller and Corruptor both used fighting pool to do this and never regretted it.
As people think of Controllers as "squishy", it's actually surprising to learn that Tough and Weave actually have pretty good numbers for them. The problem is that it can be difficult to maintain Endurance to keep two toggles up, plus attack if you wish to make use of Boxing (probably not) while also using your normal attacks, holds, and buff/debuff powers. You basically need some good endurance slotting to keep those toggles going.
With Stamina to provide End in the lower levels and having some picks freed up, it might help you in the lower levels, but really, it probably won't. And by the time you can get an Epic shield it will be the better choice.
I usually take manuevers on my controllers so everybody gets some benifits. I have used the fighting pool on one controller and several blasters though. I find it helps if you have the powers slots to spare. When tough and weave are stacked with some other protections you become pretty durable. Weave is all around defense while Tough is only resistance to smash/ lethal.
Boxng is a quick filler attack that does decent damage with some slotting. Good for that finishing hit on held opponents. It benifits from containment.
When I have taken kick I always used it for a kinectic crash mule to get the knockback protection from the four piece bonus. I still use it as an attack on occasion and it is fun when you kick an opponenet across the room
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My Plant/TA scraptroller has capped (75%) S/L resistance with Temp Invulnerability, Tough, the Cardiac incarnate boost and some IO sets. It was my goal for the character. I didn't care about soft-capping defense, I wanted the character concept to be physically tough.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
For instance, on a Controller or Defender you can get over 60% resistance to S/L by combining Tough with an Epic Shield. That is a very noticeable amount of protection. However, this does NOTHING to help you avoid mezz effects, which are the bane of any squishy AT as far as I am concerned.
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And she is -- against anything with slashing or lethal damage. But that damage type becomes rarer at high level. Against any other damage type she's very squishy. Although not as squishy as those controllers with softcapped defense once the new high-level mobs start in with their defense debuffs. Avoiding mezzes is a good benefit of high defense. But then, I think that I might get enough IO sets to softcap my scraptroller's ranged defense anyway.
Defense is the more popular option, and its kryptonite (defense debuffs) is more uncommon than my scraptroller's kryptonite (anything but S/L damage). If you want to go for just defense, listen to Biospark and don't bother with Weave or the fighting pool. But going for layers of both resistance and defense is an option. You'll have to commit more slots to it and buy more IO sets for it, but it is possible.
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Defensive debuffs have to land first, and then some more to cause cascading failure. Unless you're like trying to tank the ITF or something, as long as you don't get hit too much on the return alpha (and you shouldn't), you should be able to lock things down enough to not worry about staying at or near the def cap. It's also really nice not worrying about mobs like Sappers, cuz they're just not hitting you all that much.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Defense is the more popular option, and its kryptonite (defense debuffs) is more uncommon than my scraptroller's kryptonite (anything but S/L damage).
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As a counterexample, my Son/Son defender w/Tough, Weave & TI has S/L resists capped along w/smaller resists across the board, and capped ranged def, but he gets taken down way faster than any of my controllers if he aggros too much, because of fewer control options. I mean solo, I can just sleep everything, but who has problems solo?
To the OP, I toyed w/the Fighting pool for I19 builds, post free Fitness, but decided that the end costs just didn't justify the returns. Tough is not all that useful by itself, and Weave is nice, but hard to justify getting 2 other powers for, not when you can get into the 30s for range def (or S/L depending on epic armor) w/not that much effort, and even softcap w/a bit of sacrificing. Maneuvers is kind of a must for me though.
I will tell you, my Ice/Storm's build w/Man, Tough & Weave and an epic armor was a defensive beast (Steamy Mist has some nice #s), but again, the end cost was unbearable. This was before I got Cardiac on him, so it might work better now, but still, not really necessary. My Son/Son example above also had horrible end issues running all of his toggles prior to the Cardiac boost so I ended up shutting off Tough most of the time anyway.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Hi,these are powers that I have never even touched the whole 15 months plus of playing this game.How are they normally slotted on trollers?How much does it make a difference in the squishyness of a troller besides being a mule for -Kb.Yes this is for the dreaded fire/kin but i also want to see if they work in my Earth/Storm and fire/rad as well.Thanks for any input