Are there Widow builds analogous to the Huntsman?
By
Barbie_Ink,
Posted on: 2011-01-01 18:49 in Soldiers of Arachnos
It's not really possible on a Widow because you would end up having to dip into the specialty powers at some point. However I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to stick with just pre-24 powers.
I thought about making a character strictly to just have her be a Blood Widow since I have a Night Widow and a Fortunata, but it just wasn't a feasible idea since the character never really matures.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
The Night Widow is just a continuation of the base Widow Training powers. It isn't an entirely new AT like Bane and Crab are. I assure you a Night Widow attacks so fast you will do a lot of standing around if you deliberately avoid using Widow Training attacks. The same is true in reverse.
However I will also add that I am currently working on a Blood Widow character that has 54.2% melee and ranged defense and 55% global recharge.
I will more than likely keep her a sa Blood Widow completely, but I will end up choosing the Night Widow Training, but not taking any of the Night Widow attacks. I will take that branch just to get access to the Widow Teamwork powers which makes her even more deadly and still makes her a Blood Widow.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
Quote:
Ah ...now that is analogous to building a Huntsman, where you dip into the Bane Spider Training secondary (for Bane Armor and Surveillance mainly, Cloaking Device optional) and the Bane Spider Soldier primary (only for Build Up). Care to share your build, and insights, with the class? |
Originally Posted by Novella
I will more than likely keep her as a Blood Widow completely, but I will end up choosing the Night Widow Training, but not taking any of the Night Widow attacks. I will take that branch just to get access to the Widow Teamwork powers which makes her even more deadly and still makes her a Blood Widow.
|
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
I've still got a fair few Fort powers for control and/or utility, but in terms of killing stuff, my Fortunata is highly dependent on the BW powers, particularly when it comes to ST damage, where my entire attack chain is made up of them (and, despite doing this for concept reasons, I ended up with a far more powerful character than one that uses the Fort attacks...). As such, I can't see a BW having any real problems, particularly if you squeeze in a few NW secondary powers like Mind Link.
Quote:
The build itself was created so that I could completely my trifecta of having a Night Widow, Fortunata and Blood Widow. The Blood Widow build is very front loaded with attacks until the mid 20s, but you do have some room to sway. All of my Widow characters stay consistent with the NPC versions so they don't have Superspeed, Hover, Fly, etc since the NPC characters don't.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Ah ...now that is analogous to building a Huntsman, where you dip into the Bane Spider Training secondary (for Bane Armor and Surveillance mainly, Cloaking Device optional) and the Bane Spider Soldier primary (only for Build Up). Care to share your build, and insights, with the class?
|
My Blood Widow does have Mask Presence even though an actual Blood Widow doesn't, as well as Mind Link, but those are just two powers that I wanted to carry over because I like them. I may end up dropping them both to stay consistent with the Blood Widow background, but for now I do have them. Aside from those two Spin is the only other power I took that Blood Widow's do not use and I may end up dropping that also.
The draw back is that with market prices being so silly right now my build is probably very costly, however I lucked out and just used sets from another defense based character that I deleted so I didn't have to buy anything. The build is capped to smashing, lethal, fire, energy, melee, ranged, and area of effect defense even with the suppression of Mask Presence. Mind Link is perma if you chose to have it on auto, but you're still capped positionally to melee and range even without Mind Link. Before Mask Presence suppression the melee and ranged defense numbers are 58.1% with area of effect being 39.3%. With Mind Link they go up to 73.6% melee and ranged, and 54.8% for area of effect.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
Quote:
By using the Fort powers for control/utility, does that not make you a Fortunata rather than a Blood Widow even if your melee attacks are from the Blood Widow selection.
|
Originally Posted by PhroX
I've still got a fair few Fort powers for control and/or utility, but in terms of killing stuff, my Fortunata is highly dependent on the BW powers, particularly when it comes to ST damage, where my entire attack chain is made up of them (and, despite doing this for concept reasons, I ended up with a far more powerful character than one that uses the Fort attacks...). As such, I can't see a BW having any real problems, particularly if you squeeze in a few NW secondary powers like Mind Link.
|
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
Quote:
Oh, certainly. I guess I wasn't clear enough - I'm not claiming I'm a BW, I was just saying that, based on my experiences from this build, the BW attacks on their own are perfectly good enough, so I would expect a BW build to work. |
Originally Posted by Novella
By using the Fort powers for control/utility, does that not make you a Fortunata rather than a Blood Widow even if your melee attacks are from the Blood Widow selection.
|
Ah my mistake. I agree, the BW attacks definitely work good enough and most of them are the core of the Night Widow attack chain anyway. I wish I wasn't so anal about sticking to the actual powers of the Blood Widow because I would love to add Smoke Grenade and Evis to my Blood Widow, but a las I can't.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
Actually, the pet Blood Widows have eviscerate and spin, so you could take them and still be considered pure BW. I think what makes a BW is the lack of psychic powers (or very weak psychic powers); instead, they rely completely on physical training and weapons in combat. You would have to skip mind link to be pure BW, though.
Summoned Blood Widow info from City of Data: http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...rs_Blood_Widow
Global - @Seigi no Akuma | Freedom mains:
Galvanized Justice - Electric Melee/Shield Scrapper
Overclocked Justice - Fire Blast/Traps Corrupter
Insanguinato - Fire Blast/Kinetics Corrupter
Insanguinata - Night Widow/Fortunata
Interesting. I've never used the summoned Blood Widow so I had no idea they used more powers than the NPC version. Thank you for making me aware of this because this allows for some very nice changes.
I would agree with you on what separates Blood Widows from Night Widows. Eventually I will be dropping Mental Training and Mind Link because those are both Night Widow things in my opinion. I look at Blood Widows as being completely natural with no super powers, i.e. Mental Blast, Psychic Scream, Mind Link, etc. I wish I could take Mask Presence, but even that is a NW power.
Well I just dropped Mental Training, Mind Link and Mask Presence. I added Spin, Eviscerate, and Smoke Grenade. I ended up dropping from 90% recharge to 61.3% recharge and my defense dropped to 54.2% melee and ranged from 58.1% melee and ranged before hand.
All in all a very solid build still and now completely Blood Widow now that I removed all of the Night Widow powers.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
The Night Widow is prety much the Huntsman Analog.
Its just that Nightwidow is just a continuation of the training.
There is also the melee Fortunata Option, which I guess is close.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Many "Huntsman" builds take either Build Up from Bane branch or Aim from Crab branch (and the shields).
I think the equivalent of "Huntsman" build is "Blood Widow" build which I have tried at lvl 50. Basically, I only take Claw attacks (Eviscerate and Slash) and skip NW's mental attacks (I do have Mind Link) and Smoke Bomb. I don't even use Stealth.
Basically, I run many leadership toggles and just use Follow Up. The two aoe are Eviscerate and Spin. I didn't take Dart Burst because I figure two melee aoe is good enough. Dart Burst is good though and it fits Blood Widow theme perfectly.
Blood Widow does A LOT of damage. It's very comparable to Claw Scrapper.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Huntsman builds do dip into the bane tree a lot more though - while the only thing they tend to take from the attack tree is build up, taking the bane spider armor upgrade, cloaking device and surveillance from the bane spider training tree is fairly common. The real reason there is a 'huntsman' build is because the main arachnos soldier tree is usually ignored in the classic bane/crab builds because it either duplicates powers in those builds or has redraw no one wants. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Many "Huntsman" builds take either Build Up from Bane branch or Aim from Crab branch (and the shields).
I think the equivalent of "Huntsman" build is "Blood Widow" build which I have tried at lvl 50. Basically, I only take Claw attacks (Eviscerate and Slash) and skip NW's mental attacks (I do have Mind Link) and Smoke Bomb. I don't even use Stealth. Basically, I run many leadership toggles and just use Follow Up. The two aoe are Eviscerate and Spin. I didn't take Dart Burst because I figure two melee aoe is good enough. Dart Burst is good though and it fits Blood Widow theme perfectly. Blood Widow does A LOT of damage. It's very comparable to Claw Scrapper. |
A night widow vs blood widow does not have that issue. If folk want to gimp themselves by avoiding mask presence, mental training and mind link from the widow teamwork pool; or slash and eviscerate from the night widow training line and call that a "Blood Widow" thats cool - but it misses the point of the huntsman build, which is to capitalize on fast firing gun attacks in the base soldier tree while still making a highly effective group character by double stacking. The only reason a huntsman skips stuff in the bane tree is to avoid redraw with the mace - my huntsman doesn't even bother with build up since I figure that double stacked assault and fully slotted leadership makes up for it.
I can see the arguement for a totally 'natural' claws widow which would rule out mind link. However, mask presence could just be considered a tech cloaking field, mental training just improved athletic training and the claw attacks in the NW tree are just better versions of the ones in the base widow tree (especially slash). Skipping all of them is only staying in 'concept' if you choose to be narrow about your concept.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Quote:
There is nothing gimp about not taking Mask Presence, Mental Training, or Mind Link. If you are playing based on pure concept like I am Blood Widows do not have those powers period.|
Originally Posted by EricHough
A night widow vs blood widow does not have that issue. If folk want to gimp themselves by avoiding mask presence, mental training and mind link from the widow teamwork pool; or slash and eviscerate from the night widow training line and call that a "Blood Widow" thats cool.
|
If you take MP, ML, or MT then YOU AREN'T a Blood Widow or else there would be a Blood Widow on the game that actually used those three powers. People who chose to take those powers are in fact a Night Widow plain and simple.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
And a Night Widow is simply a Blood Widow with elite training. Kind of like a Huntsman is a Wolf Spider with elite training.
Quote:
You know, I would buy everything in your list as skippable except mental training - 20% global recharge is NOT something that is easily skipped. You may not be gimp without it, but you are going to have to work hard to make up the difference. I also don't buy your explanation for NOT taking it - can you prove that blood widows DON'T have an extra 20% global recharge?|
Originally Posted by Novella
There is nothing gimp about not taking Mask Presence, Mental Training, or Mind Link. If you are playing based on pure concept like I am Blood Widows do not have those powers period.
If you take MP, ML, or MT then YOU AREN'T a Blood Widow or else there would be a Blood Widow on the game that actually used those three powers. People who chose to take those powers are in fact a Night Widow plain and simple. |
All that said, play the character you want to play - as long as you have fun its all good. However, I would never recommend a build like that to anyone else and I certainly would not consider it analagous to the huntsman build - since cloaking device and surveillance (all bane powers) are a big part of the build.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
My semi- Blood Widow does have mental training and mind link. I just don't have Mask stealth and I don't use any psi attacks. Not taking Mask is not gimping at all. Its defense is lower than Bane's Cloaking. I save that spot for either Tough/Weave. :P I don't need stealth because 1. I don't have Build Up (I use follow up) so the burst damage isn't going to be that great from hidden 2. To replace Mask's defense, I take one more maneuver or tough/weave. It's hardly gimping myself. Mind link is too good to pass, that I agree.
Huntsman takes Survelliance and Build Up which are from Bane soldier or Aim + Crab shields.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Actually it is something that is easily skipped. This game was played well before global recharge came around and it is still easy to play without having +20% recharge. The build has 61.25% global recharge which is more than enough recharge for a build that isn't dependent on having super high recharge. The build has a very fluid attack chain without needing that additional +20%. Would I like to have +20% more? Sure, but since I am going complete Blood Widow it is not something I am too concerned about not having.|
Originally Posted by EricHough
You know, I would buy everything in your list as skippable except mental training - 20% global recharge is NOT something that is easily skipped. You may not be gimp without it, but you are going to have to work hard to make up the difference. I also don't buy your explanation for NOT taking it - can you prove that blood widows DON'T have an extra 20% global recharge?
|
I don't see how you can't buy an explanation that is common sense. NPC Blood Widow's do not have mental training, Night Widows do. What is so hard to understand about that? There is nothing to prove because it is quite obvious that they DON'T have it. Do Blood Widows use Mask Presence, Mind Link, Placate, Vengeance, or Elude? The answer is no and since Mental Training is part of the Widow Teamwork block, Blood Widows do not use those powers.
Regardless if you buy it or not, it doesn't matter to me because my build as I mentioned before is pure Blood Widow with no Night Widow influence. If I want to use Night Widow powers I will just log onto my Night Widow.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
I believe the point that's being made is that there's a difference between the 'Huntsman' build people use, and playing a pure-concept Huntsman. People playing Huntsman do indeed take Bane powers that do not overtly mark them as a Bane, such as the armor, and even some that do like Surveillance and Build Up.
When asking if there is a Widow analog to the 'Huntsman' build, the answer is yes and it is the 'Blood Widow' build, which just like the 'Huntsman' build would involve taking a couple of Night Widow powers and just fudging the line some. If you're making a pure-concept Blood Widow, that's fine, but that isn't what most people are talking about when they talk about or post 'Huntsman' builds so you shouldn't expect them to be doing so about the 'Blood Widow' build.
Just like they can overlook their characters not moving their lips when they talk or having a limited range of motion, they can overlook something with no outward effect like 'Mental Training'. Denying it, to most of us, would be like refusing to get set bonuses because NPC Blood Widows don't make use of sets because they can't enhance their powers with IOs. At some point you have to fudge the line between concept/RP, and mechanics. If your line is much further back towards pure-concept than most folks, that's fine, play how you want. But don't be surprised when others express confusion or worse at where you've set it.
Quote:
NPCs of all types have exactly the speed and recharge rates that the developers want them to have. Having an auto-"power" that does nothing but increase these things is pointless as they simple set the values to whatever they want on their spreadsheets. Saying NPCs don't have mental training is about as meaningless as saying they don't slot accuracy enhancements.
|
Originally Posted by Novella
NPC Blood Widow's do not have mental training, Night Widows do. What is so hard to understand about that?
|
Fairly straightforward question ... are there Widow builds analogous to the Huntsman? Having taken a cursory look through the Widow powers, I get the sense that limiting yourself to just the pre-24 attack powers would "cost" too much for either a Night Widow or Fortunata build ... but lacking any experience with building (let alone playing) Widows, I'm not sure about that.
Although the Huntsman build sacrifices (somewhat) to stick with the Arachnos Weapon, as much as possible, and leverages (insanely) high quantities of +Recharge in order to be viable ... I can't tell if a Widow, of any variety, would be able to do the same. Has anyone tried?
I suspect though that there are just too many "good powers" in the post-24 branches for Widows to pass up though, when it comes to making a "successful" build. I also suspect that like the Huntsman, with its biased preference towards using Bane branch powers, that any sort of post-24 Blood Widow build would be biased towards using the Night Widow branch for synergistic reasons.
Anyone with experience in this area?