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How is "You moved 150 yards from your buffer, your defense/resistance/speed/etc has now dropped" better than "You've had the buff applied, take your group and finish off that side of the caves, we'll finish off this side arc of the caves, and the buffer doesn't have to worry about running out of END so they can still fight?" |
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
Someone mentioned that the problem would be they'd go out of range and you'd have to reapply it, but that's still better than what we have now.
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Your definition of "better" is an odd one. Your suggestion has, aside from having to introduce a whole new power mechanic:
- Tied down one team member. Seven toggle buffs to maintain - assuming this isn't like FF or Sonic, where there are two shields PLUS dispersion bubble, for instance, plus possibly Force bubble, PLUS, of course, an entire secondary (or primary in the case of Corruptors/Controllers) to use.
- Gutted that team member's effectiveness - for the reasons above. We won't see "Don't attack, just heal" out of ignorance, we'll see it because the buffer's END wears off and suddenly the entire team is weakened dramatically. You've essentially turned them into half a character
- Leashed the team to one person. THEY can't move more than whatever the range is. If the buffer needs to go AFK, the entire team comes to a halt (unless they decide they don't want/need the buffs.) Alternately, if you make the range TOO great, you might as well leave the buff-bot at the door, since they won't be able to do much else anyway.
Sorry, this is NOT the definition of "better" to me.
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While I am not a fan of the idea since it would change the game balance that has already been carefully worked out by the Dev Team, such a thing could very well be handled like the PBAoE SuperJump, Regeneration / Recovery Auras / Accelerate Metabolism, etc. That is to say, those within the range of the casting player would receive the buff. Then, like Group Fly, it would remain active until (a) the receiving toon(s) moved out of range of the Caster, (b) the Caster turned off the power or (c) the Caster was defeated (or possibly, stunned).|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
We know it's possible with a single target (toggle debuffs of various sorts, plus Disruption Field). The problem is applying the same concept to multiple targets. The game has no system for selecting multiple targets at once, and no system for activating the same toggle power a second time on a different target, without turning it off of the first target.
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-- Vivian
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Or I can post a thread about it to see if other people feel the same. If it turns out in the end that there's not a lot of support, obviously I will have to "suck it up", but really? It seems the only thing you're suggesting is to stop using the suggestion thread.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Well, very few other people seem to have a problem with the mechanics. And a new mechanic would simply throw balance completely out the window.
So, you're just gonna have to like it or lump it, frankly. Because, unlike certain sets that genuinely have problems, none of the buff sets suffer from brokeness that I've noticed atm. |
Did I really do this the wrong way? It seems that it's functioning as intended to me.
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All I meant was that we'd have to apply it less often. The only suggestion I wanted to make (and no, I don't have all the answers) was to try and find a way to reduce the ammount of time people have to spend buffing. Similar to how they changed pet buffs for masterminds to affect all pets on a single cast.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
How is "You moved 150 yards from your buffer, your defense/resistance/speed/etc has now dropped" better than "You've had the buff applied, take your group and finish off that side of the caves, we'll finish off this side arc of the caves, and the buffer doesn't have to worry about running out of END so they can still fight?"
Your definition of "better" is an odd one. Your suggestion has, aside from having to introduce a whole new power mechanic: - Tied down one team member. Seven toggle buffs to maintain - assuming this isn't like FF or Sonic, where there are two shields PLUS dispersion bubble, for instance, plus possibly Force bubble, PLUS, of course, an entire secondary (or primary in the case of Corruptors/Controllers) to use. - Gutted that team member's effectiveness - for the reasons above. We won't see "Don't attack, just heal" out of ignorance, we'll see it because the buffer's END wears off and suddenly the entire team is weakened dramatically. You've essentially turned them into half a character - Leashed the team to one person. THEY can't move more than whatever the range is. If the buffer needs to go AFK, the entire team comes to a halt (unless they decide they don't want/need the buffs.) Alternately, if you make the range TOO great, you might as well leave the buff-bot at the door, since they won't be able to do much else anyway. Sorry, this is NOT the definition of "better" to me. |
I never suggested that ALL buffs operate this way. I was mostly thinking of things like armors and such. With a low enough end pull, it would hardly be a problem. And if the mechanic allowed for apply and forget or apply and hold, then you could just do it the way that suits you.
As for range an easy solution would be to have it no have a range so long as you're in the same mission.
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Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
All I meant was that we'd have to apply it less often. The only suggestion I wanted to make (and no, I don't have all the answers) was to try and find a way to reduce the ammount of time people have to spend buffing. Similar to how they changed pet buffs for masterminds to affect all pets on a single cast.
I never suggested that ALL buffs operate this way. I was mostly thinking of things like armors and such. With a low enough end pull, it would hardly be a problem. And if the mechanic allowed for apply and forget or apply and hold, then you could just do it the way that suits you. As for range an easy solution would be to have it no have a range so long as you're in the same mission. |
Just an FYI, I've seen some pretty vehement objections concerning certain armor buffs just over how they make a players costume look while active. (I don't say anything to those players but I have to admit I'm thinking "Oookaaaay"
whenever it gets mentioned.)
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However, the reason WHY masterminds got that was that they're generally defenseless until they get their pets up and buffed. It was meant to reduce the frustrating setup time at the beginning of a mission (or resummoning) for masterminds. Every other AT could just get in and get going. Masterminds had to summon, then spend a minute buffing *each* pet twice, recover END and then, FINALLY, get going. |
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
All I meant was that we'd have to apply it less often. The only suggestion I wanted to make (and no, I don't have all the answers) was to try and find a way to reduce the ammount of time people have to spend buffing. Similar to how they changed pet buffs for masterminds to affect all pets on a single cast.
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This is *not* true of any other AT. No, not even buffers.
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I never suggested that ALL buffs operate this way. I was mostly thinking of things like armors and such. With a low enough end pull, it would hardly be a problem. And if the mechanic allowed for apply and forget or apply and hold, then you could just do it the way that suits you. As for range an easy solution would be to have it no have a range so long as you're in the same mission. |
Buffer gameplay with this? Buff everyone, stand at the door. (And quite likely be *ordered* to just stay at the door and "safe" while the rest of the team goes on with their new perma-buffs.) No freaking thanks.
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I don't see the relevance personally, but this did make me laugh because I think the same thing! |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Just an FYI, I've seen some pretty vehement objections concerning certain armor buffs just over how they make a players costume look while active. (I don't say anything to those players but I have to admit I'm thinking "Oookaaaay"
whenever it gets mentioned.) |
Captain Uptight: "Don't buff me! I don't look good in ice!"
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I'm not ready to conceed that there's no merit at all to this idea and that there's no way to work out a system that would reduce the re-buffing of teammates. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
do you really, REALLY think the devs would let something like this get away with a "low END pull?" Even more so with "unlimited in-mission range?" You can't be serious.
Buffer gameplay with this? Buff everyone, stand at the door. (And quite likely be *ordered* to just stay at the door and "safe" while the rest of the team goes on with their new perma-buffs.) No freaking thanks. |
I don't believe that the only way it could be done is with the fairly dark picture you've painted. Clearly no one would want to doorsit and no one would want to have their endurance drained to hell. If certain buffs had the effects I mentioned, but not ALL of them, I doubt this would really be an issue.
What if buffers could choose ONE buff to operate under such conditions at a time?
That's just one idea and I'm sure there are others.
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So. You're playing force field. Do you want Deflection or Insulation shield running under those rules? After all, your whole reason for this is that you hate reapplying buffs - so now you have one buff constantly draining END, and another you have to reapply every four minutes. Of course, if you don't slot THOSE for END, you may end up having them drop when you finish. |
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
I'm not ready to conceed that there's no merit at all to this idea and that there's no way to work out a system that would reduce the re-buffing of teammates.
I don't believe that the only way it could be done is with the fairly dark picture you've painted. Clearly no one would want to doorsit and no one would want to have their endurance drained to hell. If certain buffs had the effects I mentioned, but not ALL of them, I doubt this would really be an issue. What if buffers could choose ONE buff to operate under such conditions at a time? That's just one idea and I'm sure there are others. |
And, of course, if you choose to do something like, oh, run another PBAOE buff (or two,) and/or attack - and END drain/Recovery debuffs aren't exactly uncommon, either (clockwork, mu, quite a bit in praetoria, carnies, freakshow) - it's not just bad for you, but for everyone you're the "toggle-buff" source for. (Doubly so if you're also, say, the source for a Dispersion Bubble, in FF's case.)
Prepare to be yelled at by teammates if you *dare* nuke, too.
Sorry, but no, I see absolutely no upside or improvement to this. It just doesn't take that long to rebuff, and those buffs work even if your character dies.
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Basically I mentioned it to show you that there are more than one reason why people object to buffs and that can give some insight as to why they might be opposed to continuous buffs.|
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
I don't see the relevance personally, but this did make me laugh because I think the same thing!
Captain Uptight: "Don't buff me! I don't look good in ice!" |
Personally my objections are from the perspective on how my characters respond inside tight enclosed maps which we frequently have missions on, and how certain buffs make it more difficult and therefore less enjoyable.
Now in addition to game mechanics and cosmetic reasons, we've also had people object for medical reasons. Yes, I said medical reasons. We've actually had the effects of powers changed because the visual effects were making some people phyiscally ill. Migraines and such.
I'll try to keep out of the needlessly harsh back-and-forth and just say this:
I have never been a fan of short-duration buffs that need to be handed out individually. It's not even a question of cost or time, but rather one of effort. It's just busywork, which smacks of balance by annoyance.
I'm not sure what could be done to diminish this effect (though increasing duration probably will), but I know that I simply don't like how that's set up.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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*nod* That was a year and a half fight to get Sonic's graphics changed.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Now in addition to game mechanics and cosmetic reasons, we've also had people object for medical reasons. Yes, I said medical reasons. We've actually had the effects of powers changed because the visual effects were making some people phyiscally ill. Migraines and such.
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I don't see the reason for all the arguing. You either agree or disagree there's an issue to be solved then try and collaborate what could be a solution. No, I don't think a toggle buff would work (however, separating the idea from in-game power mechanics and just imagining toggling up each teammate with Clear Mind...wouldn't be so bad). There just doesn't seem a way with respect to in-game powers. You can either toggle one target or toggle the effect to work around a target but one power produces one toggle...If you can come up with some more ideas to how it'd work, feel free...
But back to the drawing board: What's the issue again? Mechanically, there is no problem as it is quite possible to keep all these buffs up indefinitely. But I could see there being a QoL issue in that, casting the same buffs to maintain their moderate-short durations can be busy work.
So what about maybe something like stacking durations? Would it address any problems if you could say, triple cast Speed Boost on a teammate right at the start and adding the durations of each application (that'd end up lasting 6min instead of 2)? Yes, of course you'd still have a lot of casting of the power, but you can better designate your time if applying a buff added to its duration rather than refreshing its duration, i.e. if you can buff everyone at the start then catch 2 allies between each fight instead of stoping to refresh them all after the 3rd fight...
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I'm not sure that's mechanically possible, but if it were, I'd go for it. Busywork I can handle, as long as it's not all the time, and if I could pile up my busywork in larger, less frequent clumps, I definitely would.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
So what about maybe something like stacking durations? Would it address any problems if you could say, triple cast Speed Boost on a teammate right at the start and adding the durations of each application (that'd end up lasting 6min instead of 2)? Yes, of course you'd still have a lot of casting of the power, but you can better designate your time if applying a buff added to its duration rather than refreshing its duration, i.e. if you can buff everyone at the start then catch 2 allies between each fight instead of stoping to refresh them all after the 3rd fight...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The only way I can see people going for this is if they add in a way for people to remove (or block) a buff. I know I'd quit teams if the kin got carried away with casting SB. I have hard enough times trying to explain to them now that I don't want SB even though it does have some good things in it. I'm just not a fan of bouncing off walls because someone else can't respect my request.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
So what about maybe something like stacking durations? Would it address any problems if you could say, triple cast Speed Boost on a teammate right at the start and adding the durations of each application (that'd end up lasting 6min instead of 2)? Yes, of course you'd still have a lot of casting of the power, but you can better designate your time if applying a buff added to its duration rather than refreshing its duration, i.e. if you can buff everyone at the start then catch 2 allies between each fight instead of stoping to refresh them all after the 3rd fight...
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�Let there be truth, happiness, and waffles�
-Vagabond, Dark Lord & Avatar of Gnarr
The Justiciars
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What you're saying makes sense from the perspective of someone who has already decided how I should play my buffer (I don't mean that meanly btw). It's like you're saying I'm committing some grave sin by not buffing constantly. From the buffer's perspective, I would like the ability to have a buff stick.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So. You're playing force field. Do you want Deflection or Insulation shield running under those rules? After all, your whole reason for this is that you hate reapplying buffs - so now you have one buff constantly draining END, and another you have to reapply every four minutes. Of course, if you don't slot THOSE for END, you may end up having them drop when you finish.
And, of course, if you choose to do something like, oh, run another PBAOE buff (or two,) and/or attack - and END drain/Recovery debuffs aren't exactly uncommon, either (clockwork, mu, quite a bit in praetoria, carnies, freakshow) - it's not just bad for you, but for everyone you're the "toggle-buff" source for. (Doubly so if you're also, say, the source for a Dispersion Bubble, in FF's case.) Prepare to be yelled at by teammates if you *dare* nuke, too. Sorry, but no, I see absolutely no upside or improvement to this. It just doesn't take that long to rebuff, and those buffs work even if your character dies. |
And if I Nova, so be it. I get to play the game too, not just the melee types
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That makes sense. I did already know that people don't like buffs in many cases and I think there are a lot of legitimate reasons (like people who hate the run speed of speed boost for example).
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Basically I mentioned it to show you that there are more than one reason why people object to buffs and that can give some insight as to why they might be opposed to continuous buffs.
Personally my objections are from the perspective on how my characters respond inside tight enclosed maps which we frequently have missions on, and how certain buffs make it more difficult and therefore less enjoyable. Now in addition to game mechanics and cosmetic reasons, we've also had people object for medical reasons. Yes, I said medical reasons. We've actually had the effects of powers changed because the visual effects were making some people phyiscally ill. Migraines and such. |
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Exactly my point. Thank you. Though for the record, I'm not intending to be harsh in the slightest (text isn't very good for conveying intentions).
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'll try to keep out of the needlessly harsh back-and-forth and just say this:
I have never been a fan of short-duration buffs that need to be handed out individually. It's not even a question of cost or time, but rather one of effort. It's just busywork, which smacks of balance by annoyance. I'm not sure what could be done to diminish this effect (though increasing duration probably will), but I know that I simply don't like how that's set up. |
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I've always been amazed how that one buff seems to bring out the Kinetics inner a**hole. I can't count how many of them I've one starred because they think they can force me to play my characters the way they dictate.
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Originally Posted by DocArcus
The only way I can see people going for this is if they add in a way for people to remove (or block) a buff. I know I'd quit teams if the kin got carried away with casting SB. I have hard enough times trying to explain to them now that I don't want SB even though it does have some good things in it. I'm just not a fan of bouncing off walls because someone else can't respect my request.
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Yes! You also understand.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I don't see the reason for all the arguing. You either agree or disagree there's an issue to be solved then try and collaborate what could be a solution.
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| So what about maybe something like stacking durations? Would it address any problems if you could say, triple cast Speed Boost on a teammate right at the start and adding the durations of each application (that'd end up lasting 6min instead of 2)? Yes, of course you'd still have a lot of casting of the power, but you can better designate your time if applying a buff added to its duration rather than refreshing its duration, i.e. if you can buff everyone at the start then catch 2 allies between each fight instead of stoping to refresh them all after the 3rd fight... |
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I've heard this a lot and have experienced the same issues. That's one of the reasons I was very specific about not changing from targetted buffs to AOE (since you can't select the recipients of an AOE buff).|
Originally Posted by DocArcus
The only way I can see people going for this is if they add in a way for people to remove (or block) a buff. I know I'd quit teams if the kin got carried away with casting SB. I have hard enough times trying to explain to them now that I don't want SB even though it does have some good things in it. I'm just not a fan of bouncing off walls because someone else can't respect my request.
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However, the ability to turn off buffs that people have asked about forever is another good suggestion.
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IMO being able to block unwanted buffs would eliminate a lot of the objections to constant buffs. People can just say "Do what you want, I've got mine turned off."
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Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
However, the ability to turn off buffs that people have asked about forever is another good suggestion.
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As a point of fact, allowing people to right-click on a buff and remove it like how we can delete temporary powers has no downside, excluding the development costs. I would very much like to see that. If "crash" debuffs are deemed problematic under this system, then I suggest only being allowed to drop buffs that don't have crashes associated with them, for which buffs can be tagged by hand. There really aren't that many which have crashes outside of resurrects and god mode powers.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
IMO being able to block unwanted buffs would eliminate a lot of the objections to constant buffs. People can just say "Do what you want, I've got mine turned off."
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A more specific system of actually BLOCKING certain buffs might be interesting, but I feel that simply allowing the dropping of a buff to be bindable to a macro or a key would solve the need for a specific predictive interface. Whenever you get hit with a buff you don't want, you just hit your bind and it disappears.
About the only ones I can see as being problematic that way are toggle buffs, but I've yet to see a toggle buff people really wanted to drop, with the possible exception of Group Fly, which nobody takes. And nobody should.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The only reason I would prefer an automatic block to clicking and dropping is because I've both seen and been the recipient of individuals that get a perverse kick out of following people around and spamming buffs.
Now I know we can petition such behaviour, but I find myself asking why leave them with a tool that can be abused? Much like how the red flag blocks people from spamming invites, and the friends list email block prevents RMT spam.
In a perfect world I imagine we'd be able to type /buff and a pop up window similar to /hide would appear and we'd be able to select which buffs we don't want to accept.
I know I'm a hopeless dreamer.
Instead, I would select the people that want it, buff them and it would just be on the rest of the mission (so long as I had energy and they stayed in range).
Someone mentioned that the problem would be they'd go out of range and you'd have to reapply it, but that's still better than what we have now. Either that or this maintained enchantment idea where the link is still active, so when they leave range the power is not effective, but becomes effective again when they come back in range automatically.
If you can come up with a way to do it that will minimize the negatives some of us have brought to your attention then thats great.
The only solution I can think of that would make the opposition happy would be the ability to blobk buffs like we can with Mystic Fortune, but that's a different suggestion.