stone melee is a smashy goodiness...try that 
Frozen Aura got a boost and is now a Footstomp clone, albeit with a smaller radius (10' rather than 15'). Between that and Frost Ice Melee can pump out some decent AoE damage now, though the ST damage remains poor.
Dual Blades, Battle Axe and War Mace aren't too shabby at AoE either if you can handle the cones. Big "if", because outside of spreadsheet theorycraft I don't see cones hitting anywhere near *half* their potential overall in, say, an ITF or something [edit : poorly phrased/overstatement, as reading Telperion's post made me realise. I don't want to imply a cone like CC would hit an average of 2-3 or something, 5-6 avg is closer to what I see.] Of course, I can't rule out the possibility that anybody I've ever played with including myself completely suck at the game and that there's an infinitely small subset of players who know how to use cones, which is why I'm naming these powersets at all.
Stone Melee has got great ST damage and a decent, although slow activating AoE in Tremor ; same radius as Footstomp so very user friendly, and between Shield Charge and an eventual AoE epic it could deal OKish AoE damage. Given what you seem to be looking for I'd say this feels like the best pick out of your possible choices.
Though I feel obligated to add "best pick" might still turn out to be a poor choice in this case, because you seem to have very high expectations for performance. SS and Fire are definitely the top performers in overall damage (ST + AOE), and if you feel the other powersets already look far inferior on paper, you might be disappointed in game.
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Although hitting several foes with War Mace's Shatter takes a little practice, if someone can't hit the 10 foe max using Crowd Control's 180 degree cone, they sure aren't trying very hard.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Dual Blades, Battle Axe and War Mace aren't too shabby at AoE either if you can handle the cones. Big "if", because outside of spreadsheet theorycraft I don't see cones hitting anywhere near *half* their potential overall in, say, an ITF or something. Of course, I can't rule out the possibility that anybody I've ever played with including myself completely suck at the game and that there's an infinitely small subset of players who know how to use cones, which is why I'm naming these powersets at all.
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I've got a 50 and almost-50 Mace tank, and although it's not quite as good at AoE as Fire or SS, it's a very good set, and works great with Shield Defense.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Hitting the target cap once, or even multiple times in a given mission? Sure.
Hitting the target cap 100% of the time by wasting time herding to corners? Sure.
Hitting the target cap 100% of the time, using the power every time it's up as well as other AoEs (that is, no time spent positioning when you could be attacking), in a fast-paced team environment over, say, a thirty minute period on a task like an ITF? Never seen it, highly doubt I'll ever see it, not holding my breath on seeing a player doing it ingame or a video of it being done.
Again, there's always been talk on the boards about how trivial it is to do, but all those pro players are nowhere to be seen in the teams I've been in. There was that one time when people argued "WM > SS", and Smurphy offered to watch and time people, using HeroStats, as they used their WM character, and then run the results against his own SS numbers (or run the same mission under the same conditions himself with other people watching). Somehow nobody ever took him up on that offer, and the WM > SS discussion faded into obscurity shortly thereafter.
Nihilii's post is spot on, except for his War Mace assessment. Though /Stone just has Tremor, Shield/ would fill the AoE gap with Shield Charge, and toss in an Epic AoE and you might be satisfied. A nice thing about pbaoe's like Tremor/Footstomp is that you don't need a target to activate them, unlike cones.
/Mace has awesome consistant AoE, however, and at the level of recharge you are likely to build a Shield/ toon for, you will probably be able to chain Crowd Control/Shatter/Whirling Axe all day, and due to AAO's crazy good taunt, whatever's still alive after Shield Charge will stick to you like glue.
I have a SS/wp brute and WM/wp brute, both at 50, and for me Crowd Control is just as satisfying as Foot Stomp.
I'd say make both Shield/mace and Shield/stone and go with what feels cooler to you. Beware the end costs of both.
50s:
Grimmloch, Tactically Delicious, Ugly Frankie, Operative Tracker, CryoFurnace, Professional Help, Silver Sphinx, Aries Knight, Tachyon Aegis, Jade Sphinx
Currently building:
Any one of half a dozen alts!
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I hope you're not saying that Foot Stomp hits the target max every single time it's used. That's an absurd argument, and is against Mace's cones as well. Sure, Foot Stomp probably hits more targets on average, because it's a true AoE with a big radius. But your argument was that cones are hard to position to hit multiple foes, which in the case of Crowd Control, is ridiculous assertion. If several foes are standing in front of your tank, and you use an attack with a 180 degree cone, how can you NOT hit most of them?|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Hitting the target cap once, or even multiple times in a given mission? Sure.
Hitting the target cap 100% of the time by wasting time herding to corners? Sure. Hitting the target cap 100% of the time, using the power every time it's up as well as other AoEs (that is, no time spent positioning when you could be attacking), in a fast-paced team environment over, say, a thirty minute period on a task like an ITF? Never seen it, highly doubt I'll ever see it, not holding my breath on seeing a player doing it ingame or a video of it being done. |
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| Again, there's always been talk on the boards about how trivial it is to do, but all those pro players are nowhere to be seen in the teams I've been in. There was that one time when people argued "WM > SS", and Smurphy offered to watch and time people, using HeroStats, as they used their WM character, and then run the results against his own SS numbers (or run the same mission under the same conditions himself with other people watching). Somehow nobody ever took him up on that offer, and the WM > SS discussion faded into obscurity shortly thereafter. |
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Nope, I never said that, you're the one who brought up the "anyone who doesn't hit the target cap with CC isn't trying". I'd give Footstomp a 7-8 target average personally, usually (but not always) the full ten when fights start and less than that as stuff start dying.| I hope you're not saying that Foot Stomp hits the target max every single time it's used. That's an absurd argument, and is against Mace's cones as well. |
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| But your argument was that cones are hard to position to hit multiple foes, which in the case of Crowd Control, is ridiculous assertion. |
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| If several foes are standing in front of your tank, and you use an attack with a 180 degree cone, how can you NOT hit most of them? |
Your typical enemy group in x8 is what, 8-10 minions, 3-4 lieuts, 1-2 bosses, all in all about 14-16 mobs usually scattered over a ~20 feet radius, sometimes less or more depending on enemy faction and map. It's extremely rare for me to just jump in and have more than 3-4 targets just in front of me, only after they gather a bit I might have maybe 7-8, keyword being "might" because by that point 2-3 seconds have elapsed and some of the minions are already wiped out either by my AoEs or from someone else's.
Again, video would be convenient, because there's been so many words thrown around and obviously if you're right and I'm wrong then I'm missing something that you can't convey in words or that I'm too dense to understand.
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| Strawman. Never said that War Mace has better AoE than SS, as a matter of fact, I said just the opposite. |
My point was that there's been many words exchanged about War Mace being great and super easy to use but never any tangible proof for us non-believers. How much more hours should we collectively waste arguing back and forth on this where a simple ten minute video of straight footage could not only illustrate the point of pro-WM folks but also show people who can't do it how it's done?
I realise I'm part of the problem by replying at all and will stop after this - and if there's an actual video posted please PM me about it, because if I read the thread further I'll keep falling into answering and derailing the topic.
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I have no idea why you're babbling about a video. The only point I was trying to make, and indeed, made many posts ago, is that Crowd Control is easy to use and requires no practice or expertise to "position". There was no assertion made about the number of targets hit, other than the fact that players can, and sometimes do, hit 10 targets with it. I also have no idea why this is such an issue for you, or why it's so important to refute whatever claim you think was made--though it certainly wasn't made by me.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
My point was that there's been many words exchanged about War Mace being great and super easy to use but never any tangible proof for us non-believers. How much more hours should we collectively waste arguing back and forth on this where a simple ten minute video of straight footage could not only illustrate the point of pro-WM folks but also show people who can't do it how it's done?
I realise I'm part of the problem by replying at all and will stop after this - and if there's an actual video posted please PM me about it, because if I read the thread further I'll keep falling into answering and derailing the topic. |
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Stone is kinda nice. And actually pretty nifty mitigation-wise too. My WP/Stone is just a beast on teams. Pretty funny for a toon called "Offended Young Girl".|
Originally Posted by Supermax
I just recently came back to the game, and based on feedback from the scrapper forums, I made an elec/elec scrapper, which I'm loving. But I'm thinking of making another toon, and a tank is at the top of the list. The problem is that I don't want to play any set I've played before, which roughly halves the possible secondaries.
But an even bigger issue is that I simply don't see any set other than SS (and maybe fire) effective. For example, my /EM tank is an absolute JOKE compared to my /SS. The ST damage is similar, but the AoE is literally non-existent vs. godlike. If I do make a tank, it will be shield. I'm set on that. But I just don't know what to do about the secondary. I don't want to play SS or fire again, but the other sets seem just laughable compared to them. I definitely don't want to kill entire spawns one NPC at a time, like I have to with /EM. Am I missing something? Is some set other than SS or fire really good in reality, even though it looks far inferior on paper? (KM is not an option, since I don't have GR) |
Fire's your Damage, Damage, and OOH! Did I mention DAMAGE? doer. Two PBAoE, a cone attack, and a bunch of nice, hard-hitting ST. Pair with something like Shields for additional damage-boosty goodness.
Dark, by itself, isn't a massive damage set, it's a mitigation-heavy set. More, it's fairly ST-oriented. So if you live or die by AoE, you may want to look at other things.
Ice is decent enough damage, but again, it's more of a mitigation oriented set. Still, Ice patch is both comedy gold AND good mitigation.
DB is fun. But some people feel constrained by the combo system.
Axe and War Mace are basically two sides of the same coin. (Axe: Lethal with KD, Mace: Smashing with KU/KB). Great attacks, some of which are sorta-kinda shared with Stone. But if you're running a primary that lives or dies by how many enemies you can keep packed around you, these two can be...challenging.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Stone Melee offers hard hitting single target attacks with knockdown/knockup and the heavy hitter, Seismic, is a MAG 4 hold. You also have two AOE knockdown attacks, one that deals roughly Stone Fist damage and one that's a MAG 2 stun. It's not a big AOE damage dealer but it has tons of mitigation and it's single target damage is quite respectable. Be prepared to slot for endred though, it's a bit heavy on the blue bar. My Inv/Stone tanker, CMA, is still one of my favorites. Of course he's also my first 50 so that also has something to do with it.
Fire Melee offers a ton of damage, both single target and AOE, and works very well with Shield... I just finished taking a Shield/Fire tanker to 50 and it's nearly as durable as my Inv/Stone tank and does nearly scrapper level damage. It was a good ride most of the way; once you get your defenses in order around the mid-20's it was quite tanky all the way to 50. Fire Melee is also the lightest endurance set I've played and I've taken it to 50 twice, once as Stone/Fire and once as Shield/Fire.
I haven't played Ice melee to any significant level but it's damage is lower than most other sets, although it's tier 9 recently was buffed to Foot stomp levels. It does have a lot of mitigation built in as compensation. Since my highest Ice melee only got to the late teens my knowledge here is mostly theoretical.
Electric Melee has really good AOE but it's single target damage is somewhat lacking... my highest Elec Melee tanker is around level 30 and I've been impressed with the AOE but a bit disappointed in the single target damage. All things considered I think Fire Melee works better; it doesn't have quite as much AOE (although they recharge faster) but it's single target is much better. Still, it isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination and I've been working on two electric melee tanks, one Ice/Elec at 30 and one Dark/Elec at around 25.
That's all the sets I have personal experience with other than /EM... as you well know /EM isn't the set it used to be a few years ago, my Stone/EM has been shelved at 50 ever since shortly after the changes in issue 10? or so. I wouldn't recommend it for any tanker; I can't see that it has any real advantages anymore.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Thanks for all the replies guys. Based on the feedback, I decided that perhaps I'm being too demanding in my criteria. If SS and fire are really that much better than the rest, it's probably best not to purposely gimp myself. So if I do make a tank, I'm leaning towards shield/fire.
Btw, how does shield charge compare to lightning rod, let's say if both are used by tanks? Are they basically the same exact power? Or is one better than the other in some way? I just got LR on my new scrapper last night, so I'm wondering how SC compares.
And last question: Is tanker taunt autohit in PvE or not?
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BORING! |
Originally Posted by Supermax
Thanks for all the replies guys. Based on the feedback, I decided that perhaps I'm being too demanding in my criteria. If SS and fire are really that much better than the rest, it's probably best not to purposely gimp myself. So if I do make a tank, I'm leaning towards shield/fire.
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Seriously, every one of my tanks has a different primary and different secondary from every other. Sadly, my current tank is level 43 and, after that, I've run out of armor sets.
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| And last question: Is tanker taunt autohit in PvE or not? |
Your taunt AURA power may or may not be (they're not all identical). Also, the aura and gauntlet are never auto-hit vs AV's and GM's. But the Taunt power is. Always. (In PvE.)
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The Mentor Project
Excellent, thanks!
Actually, I decided that I do have another question.
This may be not the best place to ask, but hopefully people can reply without bias. Should I even be making a tank in the first place? Between a SD/fire tank and a fire/SD scrapper, which one will be more powerful and useful overall? If the scrapper is unequivocally considered better, perhaps I will just....scrap the idea of the tank. Lol, get it? Scrap?
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Do you want to tank and control aggro for a team? If so then you unquestionably want a tanker... while a shield scrapper can tank if built right it won't be as good as a true tanker.|
Originally Posted by Supermax
Actually, I decided that I do have another question.
This may be not the best place to ask, but hopefully people can reply without bias. Should I even be making a tank in the first place? Between a SD/fire tank and a fire/SD scrapper, which one will be more powerful and useful overall? If the scrapper is unequivocally considered better, perhaps I will just....scrap the idea of the tank. Lol, get it? Scrap? |
If on the other hand you want to solo or mainly deal damage and not worry about controlling aggro then you want the scrapper, it'll do more damage and is tough enough for the purpose.
Basically you need to decide what you want out of the character and the choice will make itself. I have a 48 Fire/Shield scrapper and a 50 Shield/Fire tanker... both are very good characters but they have different purposes. While either can fill in for the other's role somewhat they aren't as good at it.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Ok let me put it this way...if you HAD to delete one of those toons and keep the other, which one would you keep (Fire/Shield scrapper or Shield/Fire tanker)? Basically, which do you consider the most overall good toon? I understand this may differ person to person, but I'm just wondering.
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I'll have to give a "it depends"; the scrapper will kill things much faster than the tanker but even soft capped... and it costs a LOT more to soft cap a scrapper than a tank... he's quite a bit squishier. The SD/Fire tank cost me less than 20 million for his soft cap build (the defense building IOs only, I've considerably more in other non-survivability bonuses) while the scrapper cost over 500 million and isn't done yet.|
Originally Posted by Supermax
Ok let me put it this way...if you HAD to delete one of those toons and keep the other, which one would you keep (Fire/Shield scrapper or Shield/Fire tanker)? Basically, which do you consider the most overall good toon? I understand this may differ person to person, but I'm just wondering.
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Since I'm more of a tanker player than a scrapper player, even though I have 4 of each at level 50, I'd probably pick the tanker. Of course that's ME, you need to decide what's the right choice for YOU. As I mentioned either can pinch hit in the other's specialty, the tank has great damage... for a tank. The scrapper has great durability... for a scrapper.
One thing to consider, the tanker has more AOE than the scrapper since the scrapper version of fire melee trades Combustion for another single target attack.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Aight thanks!
I personally would never delete a Scrapper over a Tanker, or a Tanker over a Scrapper. However, all of my meleers are very different. The only time I have ever doubled up on a particular combo is when I tried out my Inv/SS Tanker as an SS/Inv Brute. Amusingly enough, I find both versions feel different enough that I have kept both. 
However, the description "most powerful" is a loaded one. If you mean in terms of offense, of course the Scrapper will always be greater. But you definitely won't be able to hold aggro for a team like a Tanker. To me, the reasons my Tankers feel powerful is because they can stand there in the middle of ANYTHING and feel like they're not even getting scratched.
I know you seem to have settled on SD/Fire, but allow me to say one more thing for elec melee. My main toon is a lvl 50 elec/shield brute and is the most fun I have ever had in a video game. Elec melee is admittedly weak on single target attacks, but after lightning rod---->shield charge----->thunderstrike there are rarely any single targets left. It is aoealicious (?) One of my SG mates plays a SD/elec tank and loves it to pieces. Ultimately, play what ever you think will be the most fun.
Inv/SS tank- kills
Ice/EM tank- kills
Stone/Mace tank- kills
Inv/EM tank- kills
WP/Axe tank- kills
Fire/Dark tank- kills
Dark/Ice tank- kills
Shield/Stone tank- kills
Elec/Elec tank- kills
You can wreck anything with a well built tank. It just requires a little patience, a little understanding, and getting that they're all going to have a different flavor and feel to them.
�Life's hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.� ― John Wayne
�Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!� - George Carlin
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I actually just made an elec/elec scrapper a week ago when I came back to the game. It's extremely fun and definitely a great set. If I hadn't made the scrapper, there's absolutely no doubt that the new tank I make would be elec melee. But since I already have the new scrapper, I have to do a different attack set to keep it unique.
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Originally Posted by Irish Fury
elec melee.
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I just recently came back to the game, and based on feedback from the scrapper forums, I made an elec/elec scrapper, which I'm loving. But I'm thinking of making another toon, and a tank is at the top of the list. The problem is that I don't want to play any set I've played before, which roughly halves the possible secondaries.
But an even bigger issue is that I simply don't see any set other than SS (and maybe fire) effective. For example, my /EM tank is an absolute JOKE compared to my /SS. The ST damage is similar, but the AoE is literally non-existent vs. godlike.
If I do make a tank, it will be shield. I'm set on that. But I just don't know what to do about the secondary. I don't want to play SS or fire again, but the other sets seem just laughable compared to them. I definitely don't want to kill entire spawns one NPC at a time, like I have to with /EM.
Am I missing something? Is some set other than SS or fire really good in reality, even though it looks far inferior on paper?
(KM is not an option, since I don't have GR)