If you're getting 10-15 shard drops per TF, plus the end component, I am jealous of your luck with the RNG.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
We have access to 1/2 of 1 slot of a currently planned 10 slot system. A progressive system where one could imagine significantly higher costs for the post Alpha boosts. I see no reason for concern.
People who play TFs over and over and over will advance very quickly. I play TFs often and I have three characters with Incarnate boosts. No hundreds of shards here.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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That's part of my concern, though. The newer Boosts will probably get absurd Shard costs to account for the absurd drop rate on TFs.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
We have access to 1/2 of 1 slot of a currently planned 10 slot system. A progressive system where one could imagine significantly higher costs for the post Alpha boosts. I see no reason for concern.
People who play TFs over and over and over will advance very quickly. I play TFs often and I have three characters with Incarnate boosts. No hundreds of shards here. |
The Catch 22 here is that the TF drop rate HAS to be absurd or the solo drop rate would be far too low, but the solo drop rate can never be decent because then the TF drop rate would go through the roof. As the drop rate is balanced right now, I feel BOTH solo and teaming solos.
I guess I could do something middle-of-the-road and run teams of four, but these I'd have to put together myself, whereas 8-man TFs and one-man solo are things that happen on their own. Maybe some day when we get an auto-team option...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Auto team function? o.O|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's part of my concern, though. The newer Boosts will probably get absurd Shard costs to account for the absurd drop rate on TFs.
The Catch 22 here is that the TF drop rate HAS to be absurd or the solo drop rate would be far too low, but the solo drop rate can never be decent because then the TF drop rate would go through the roof. As the drop rate is balanced right now, I feel BOTH solo and teaming solos. I guess I could do something middle-of-the-road and run teams of four, but these I'd have to put together myself, whereas 8-man TFs and one-man solo are things that happen on their own. Maybe some day when we get an auto-team option... |
But people complain about PuG as it is.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I agree the drop rate between teamed-on-TF vs. solo is disproportionate, but I'm not sure what the solution is. Unless there's some sort of internal evaluation going on (i.e. separate drop rates for teamed-on-TF, non-TF team, and solo), upping the solo drop rate would likely result in an increase in the other two as well.
Perhaps separate evaluative drop rates are what's needed to even out the speed at which incarnate shards are awarded. How about, for solo and non-TF teaming, a chance to get a shard as a mission completion bonus? Even if it's only 10%, that's still one-in-ten chance that could be counted on.
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You say team on a TF.|
Originally Posted by Mindscythe
I agree the drop rate between teamed-on-TF vs. solo is disproportionate, but I'm not sure what the solution is. Unless there's some sort of internal evaluation going on (i.e. separate drop rates for teamed-on-TF, non-TF team, and solo), upping the solo drop rate would likely result in an increase in the other two as well.
Perhaps separate evaluative drop rates are what's needed to even out the speed at which incarnate shards are awarded. How about, for solo and non-TF teaming, a chance to get a shard as a mission completion bonus? Even if it's only 10%, that's still one-in-ten chance that could be counted on. |
I have to ask, have you done a team on a regular story arc to compare the shard drop rate?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
The average I've been seeing (and when asked, been told by others) is 6-8 shards on a "kill everything in the way" runs.
Additionally...
Tier 1 Alpha: 12 Shards
Tier 2 Alpha: 20 Shards
Tier 3 Alpha: 28? 32? 40? And that's just for one. Based on the way the lines are drawn, you might need both sides of the tree to unlock the Very Rare boosts.
Final Tier Alpha: 60? 80? 100?
And then if you consider the Judgement (really devs?) slot, we have no knowledge other than what the Alpha's first two tiers cost.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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How about a shard for completing an alignment mission? That would be a guaranteed shard every 2 days. Not sure it makes much sense with the lore, but it would be something.|
Originally Posted by Mindscythe
I agree the drop rate between teamed-on-TF vs. solo is disproportionate, but I'm not sure what the solution is. Unless there's some sort of internal evaluation going on (i.e. separate drop rates for teamed-on-TF, non-TF team, and solo), upping the solo drop rate would likely result in an increase in the other two as well.
Perhaps separate evaluative drop rates are what's needed to even out the speed at which incarnate shards are awarded. How about, for solo and non-TF teaming, a chance to get a shard as a mission completion bonus? Even if it's only 10%, that's still one-in-ten chance that could be counted on. |
Edit - I'm not actually proposing this - I think merits are enough for an alignment mission, but just an idea.
I would prefer some Incarnate story arcs that provide shards, but that would be a lot of work for mission creators.
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I have. Did some 30 contact missions/tip missions set for x6 on a 2-4 man team. It's pretty much the same if you factor in the numbers of enemies killed. It's only slower in time because you kill less/time. My teammates got similar results.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
You say team on a TF.
I have to ask, have you done a team on a regular story arc to compare the shard drop rate? |
Yes, yes it's not very scientific I know, but enough to convince me.
Yesterday I did a LRSF and an ITF back to back (clearing a path, without clearing the map, as I always run TFs) and I got a total of 5 shards.
So it's not always great on TFs either.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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This.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
If you're getting 10-15 shard drops per TF, plus the end component, I am jealous of your luck with the RNG.
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I would like to see team drops equalized, frankly, and non-TF drops tweaked upward. I've been on way too many TFs this week where I walk away with 2-3 shards and several teammates walk away with 10-15. And I haven't gotten a single solo shard drop with 3 incarnates doing their 5 tips every day and one of them doing 2 story arcs. So for me, the drop rate is pretty much exactly where you want it. I'll swap with ya :P
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I would be VERY hesitant to suggest separate, higher drop rates for solo play or small teams, because of one very sinister danger: The feeling that getting on a team is actually penalising your income. Consider Inventions and how they drop (or did at one point). Any time an Invention tags to drop, it drops for only one person on the whole team. That means that even when the RNG gives you a drop, you still only have 1/8 chance to get it on a team of eight, versus a literal guarantee that you will get that when solo.|
Originally Posted by Mindscythe
I agree the drop rate between teamed-on-TF vs. solo is disproportionate, but I'm not sure what the solution is. Unless there's some sort of internal evaluation going on (i.e. separate drop rates for teamed-on-TF, non-TF team, and solo), upping the solo drop rate would likely result in an increase in the other two as well.
Perhaps separate evaluative drop rates are what's needed to even out the speed at which incarnate shards are awarded. How about, for solo and non-TF teaming, a chance to get a shard as a mission completion bonus? Even if it's only 10%, that's still one-in-ten chance that could be counted on. |
Granted, teams do indeed kill more than most people can solo, but I'm not sure how the numbers go, and I highly doubt the increase in drop rates makes up for the decrease in distribution rate. And even if it does, you end up on level ground - alone or teamed, your drops are roughly the same, which flies in the face of the multiplayer aspect. I'm as devout a solo player as you're likely to get, and even I wouldn't want to create situations where people would want to AVOID teams.
In fact, when the Inventions system first came out, these were exactly the complaints we were seeing. "Why would I team when I can grind faster solo and other people just slow me down?" And they had a point. Certain builds could just let rip and kill stuff by the hundreds, whereas if they got on a team, they had to contend with waiting times, organisation, slower companions and so forth.
The obvious "solution" is to go the experience or Inventions drops route of giving a decent solo rate and applying penalties to larger teams so the faster kill rate is counter-balanced. I say "solution" in quotes because it's both far, far, FAR too late to do that and it's not really a good solution, anyway. It creates a system where, when on a team, you have to work harder for the same benefit, and indeed all people have to work harder because if a team-mate slacks off, that's cutting into YOUR profits. One fighter and seven door sitters is a horrible team for the fighter because he's fighting as hard as he ever did, but he's earning far less than if he were soloing a mission set for eight.
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I don't know if an actual, real solution even exists. I keep suggesting solo(able) arcs to try and capitalise on a fairly uncertain factor: A source of shards that's still better than just solo grinding, but which is still far and away inferior to a good 8-man team cleaning house. That way, solo players would be able to have something less demoralising to work with while team players would do what they do anyway, since their solution would still be better.
I kept thinking that certain story arcs should perhaps be allowed to drop at least one shard on completion. Maybe not The Pilgrim's introduction "arc," but at least something long and significant like World Wide Red, A Hero's Epic, To Save a Thousand World, to Save a Soul or so forth. I mean, these things are 20 missions plus.
Another thing that keeps popping up into my head is something along the lines of Crimson's "missions," which always consist of at least three separate instances even when they're not part of an arc. Dispensing these like paper missions, possibly given out by Ramiel himself, with a single shard at the end of, say, a four-instance chain seems somewhat reasonable, though I guess it would depend on how farmable this is.
The key problem with finding a solution, as it were, is to find one that doesn't replace TFs and large teams and does not make people any less interested to use them as the fast-track path to Incarnates. The large-team drop rate is already far higher than I'd personally want to see it, and the LAST thing I want is to provide an even faster alternative.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I actually proposed something similar: Either you could get to pick between an A-merit or a shard at mission completion, or you can just hand in an A-merit for a shard at the merit-vendor.
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Originally Posted by Jetpack
How about a shard for completing an alignment mission? That would be a guaranteed shard every 2 days. Not sure it makes much sense with the lore, but it would be something.
Edit - I'm not actually proposing this - I think merits are enough for an alignment mission, but just an idea. I would prefer some Incarnate story arcs that provide shards, but that would be a lot of work for mission creators. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Well, one per two days in addition to those dropped seems interesting. However, I have sort of a problem with this: It means all people will play will be morality missions if they and they alone offer a better drop rate, and there really are only about 10 of those in the 40-50 range. Even if they're more, they're not that much more. Ideally, I'd like to see something somehow tied either to existing 45-50 story arcs, or otherwise tied to more general missions. Maybe a relatively high chance to drop a shard from mission complete? How about a chance based on kills inside the mission like you get Architect tickets?|
Originally Posted by Arilou
I actually proposed something similar: Either you could get to pick between an A-merit or a shard at mission completion, or you can just hand in an A-merit for a shard at the merit-vendor.
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Again, I don't know.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I suggest to grant a guaranteed shard on the next kill everytime someone manages a thousand kills (or 500 or 2000 or whatever) without a drop.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Well, one per two days in addition to those dropped seems interesting. However, I have sort of a problem with this: It means all people will play will be morality missions if they and they alone offer a better drop rate, and there really are only about 10 of those in the 40-50 range. Even if they're more, they're not that much more. Ideally, I'd like to see something somehow tied either to existing 45-50 story arcs, or otherwise tied to more general missions. Maybe a relatively high chance to drop a shard from mission complete? How about a chance based on kills inside the mission like you get Architect tickets?
Again, I don't know. |
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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I could roll with that. Call it the streakbreaker of the Shard drops system.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
I suggest to grant a guaranteed shard on the next kill everytime someone manages a thousand kills (or 500 or 2000 or whatever) without a drop.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If your first question upon loading this thread is "Why is another thread necessary?" then you already have your answer. Ignore it, skip it and let it sink down into obscurity. That said...
I will shock everybody and say that I actually really like the Incarnate system. Or rather, I like what it represents. This is how I've always envisioned "crafting" as working, in an ideal world - resources, sub-components, components, products, better products and so forth. Get 12 shards, make three components, make a boost. Get 12 more, make a component, then make a better component. Then get eight more, make another two components and out of all of that plus the old boost, make a new one. I love this system as it is designed, and I would like to do more with it.
But I can't, and for one simple reason: Drop rates. Now, before I get accused that I'm making another "Shard drop rates suck! Fixit!" thread, this isn't my intention, nor indeed am I going to while about the discrepancy between solo and team drop rates. Not in a needy way, anyway.
My problem with drop rates is, in fact, two-fold. Yes, the solo drop rate feels too slow, but more than that - and this is my bigger problem - the team drop rate, especially on larger-scale TFs, is just far, far, FAR too fast. Not only does this make it impossible to balance one with the other without making ether too extreme, this also serves to completely trivialise the entire Incarnate system. I remember Launch day, and how people were reporting acquiring an uncommon boost in the time it took me get to the forums and read it. I keep hearing reports of people sitting on hundreds of Shards and components. And, indeed, in a single TF, I'll usually get between 10 and 15 Shards, plus a complonent, which basically means one Common Boost or half an Uncommon one.
The reason I like the Incarnate system as a crafting system is because it feels like tiered progress, a little like how total experience bar is broken down into bars, bubbles, bubs or whatever you want to call them. In much the same way, I enjoy the feeling of progress I get from collecting Shards, making components, making better components and overall just progressing "up the tiers." Yes, it's slow to an extreme (for the time and amount of work it took me to get to 50, all I got was one or two shards), but it's still doable. That's not the issue. The Issue is that that after a TF of any decent length, I end up with basically a kit boost. There's no feeling of progress, no feeling of collection. You just get a large lump sum to insta-buy your Boost.
I don't really think there's any possible solution at this point. I've no idea why the developers let Incarnates roll out with such an absurd drop rate from TFs, but this is singularly impossible to "fix" at this point when people are already used to it. I know I don't want to earn my Shards like this, and the more I realise how fast it is, the more I realise how much I don't want to. But my alternative - doing it solo or on small teams - isn't all that appealing, either, being that it has to be many, many times slower than that of TFs just because of how the system is set up.
I guess Incarnate arcs or some kind of "Super Paper Missions" could probably help with that. Like... "Tielekku has returned and she needs your help to keep Hequat trapped in that dimension of hers. Again." or "The Gorgon Stheno rises again, and someone needs to stop her!" Missions of that sort which, at least narratively, fit the Incarnate bill and can be used as a means to progress as an Incarnate. I admit - beating up on the same old enemies but with more power is fun, but I can see how it wouldn't be the best way to progress as an Incarnate. I just hope we get another way that isn't a +4 capped super TF.