A stone tank will give you the survivability you want:
* You can tank anything currently in the game except Lord Recluse or Hamidon without support on inspirations. Lord Recluse requires about one medium inspriation (purple or green) per minute until the blue tower goes down; I've never tanked Hamidon.
* Single-target damage for a stone tank is low, but since enemies tend to group around you, your AoE damage is good.
* If you IO for recharge and movement speed, there's little downtime during or between fights.
* Psi is only a problem if you let it be a problem. A perma-Granite tank will get shredded by psi-using AVs or bosses, but if you're willing to switch to Rock Armor + Minerals, they can't touch you.
A softcapped Willpower tank can achieve ridiculous levels of survivability as well, and it isn't that hard to do.
While it won't have the same resistances as a Stone tank, it also won't have the glaring Psi hole that a perma-Granite tank will have to deal with. And when something DOES get through, your insane amounts of regen will make it so you will barely notice you've been hit, because you won't see your HP bar go down unless you are actively watching it.
Also, out of the two, Willpower/Electric will do more damage, due to not having the -recharge debuff that Granite gives you.
Downside is Willpower has a weak taunt aura, so you will need to put at least one taunt IO in RttC and actively use Taunt in order to hold agro well.
My vote is Willpower, but there are pluses and minuses to both builds.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
With fairly inexpensive IO sets like Smashing Haymaker, I was able to softcap my Stone/Fire Tank to Smashing/Lethal . . . while in Rock Armor. And without the Fighting Pool. This means that I spend most of my time in Rock Armor and can do quite a bit of damage without the damage and recharge limitations of Granite. |
Originally Posted by slainsteel
I *LOVE* stone's resistances + def, but I am very concerned about psi defense and of course, usual playability (I don't plan on playing it in non-granite form, there is no point).
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And Psi damage isn't much of a problem with Minerals. I have been able to tank the Clockwork King with no problem.
I only use Granite when I run into other types of damage that can't be handled by my Smash/Lethal Defense and Resistance and my Regen and my EE heal. As a result, this tank does enough damage to be able to farm adequately, since Build Up-Fire Sword Circle-Combustion will pretty much wipe out minions -- Mud Pots will take care of any slivers of health left.
It is not difficult to make a Stone Tank who does not rely upon being in Granite most of the time. The only main downside compared to other top tank builds I have is the limited movement from Rooted -- as long as I have a bind to an easy button to flip on Granite when needed as a "panic button" power, much like the tier 9 powers of other tank sets.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
@Katie: Any clue on how a WP does against Recluse?
@ClawsAndEffect: Any suggestions on the WP build? Also, same question, any experiences (yours or others) with going against some super-AV's with a WP versus stone?
@Local_Man: If one won't stay in Granite most of the time, then what would be the point of stone armor? Are there any other benefits non-granite stone offers over WP?
So basically, the major question of the day is, how would this WP build do against Hamidon or Lord Recluse 
If it is worse, but not much worse (as in he'll survive), then WP is a clear winner. If he will do really badly (i.e., die if not popping greens every few seconds), then it comes down to, well, how many seconds
Simple thing is, if I am slotting this guy this aggressively, I'd want to be able to use him on the toughest missions (with good teams giving backup).
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
The big complaint against Stone Armor using Granite most of the time is that while it has the best survivability, it significantly suffers in its ability to do damage and is tedious to play due to the low recharge -- you're an aggro sponge who can't do much else. By building to be able to stay in Rock Armor most of the time, those complaints are minimized. However, I still have, when I need it, the superior survivability of Granite Armor for the toughest encounters.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
@Katie: @Local_Man: If one won't stay in Granite most of the time, then what would be the point of stone armor? Are there any other benefits non-granite stone offers over WP?
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Compared to WP, Stone Armor offers a much better taunt aura and damage in that Aura. To me, this is significant -- I can pull aggro off of a WP tank most of the time. The damage from that Mud Pots Aura really adds up when up against large numbers of foes. The WP tank can Regen off of those foes, but that won't let him kill faster.
Also, WP tanks are more susceptible to hard Alpha Strikes and rely upon Regen rather than a fast-acting heal. Yet, Stone Armor also has great Regen from Rooted. WP is great for long battles, but has a weakness to a heavy hitter with tons of up-front damage. WP has extra Recovery -- I made up for that by taking the Body Mastery APP with the Regen/Recovery power and slotting for some extra Recovery.
One criticism of Stone Armor that is valid is the mobility problem cause by Roots (or slow movement in Granite). Teleport can handle some of those issues. Sometimes I just turn Roots off to run around, but I risk getting mezzed or knocked down. That problem I just kind of live with. It can be somewhat improved by using the Gift of the Ancients set with its Run speed boost.
So, instead of being limited by low damage and poor recharge, I can tank generally as well as other sets for normal content while being the best of the best for the really tough content.
(I kind of like his concept, anyway. He is a Stonemason who was magically merged with the project he was working on . . . a fireplace, giving him Stone Armor and Fire attacks. And his name? Mickey Mantel -- note the spelling on the name.)
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Only problem is, if your build is not specifically tailored for Granite Form, I doubt if you can hit s/l cap without granite, and a full cap with granite? Without a full soft-cap with granite form, granite will be as weak or even weaker than a WP with 700% regen and full def caps.
Could you post your build? (also take a look at mine if you get a chance)
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
Didn't see anyone address this point...I want to make sure you understand that the Glad Armor +Def is going to cost you 2 billion by itself if you're lucky enough to get it on the market. (Last time I looked there were about 100 bidding and none for sale.) Buying it off market is possible, but it will cost you more. |
Originally Posted by slainsteel
A few constraints,
.) I can afford maybe 'one' really expensive set/item (like a glad's armor or one expensive purple set). I can muster up to about 2bil inf that I am ready to blow on this one guy, but not much more; of course, the cheaper the better |
So if your total budget is 2 billion, spending it on a GA is definitely NOT the way to go, and completely unnecessary, besides.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
Check out my replies to this thread, and the builds contained therein. Should answer your questions pretty well:|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
@ClawsAndEffect: Any suggestions on the WP build? Also, same question, any experiences (yours or others) with going against some super-AV's with a WP versus stone?
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=245293
As far as AV survivability? A WP tank built for offense should be able to solo one with the right secondary. You probably won't be doing it with Electric, but Dark Melee and Dual Blades should be able to. (Note: It will NOT be a short fight, a tank can just barely beat an AV's regen by leveraging Bruising, you'll be hitting each other for a while)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
None of those tanks have a travel power? How do they get around?
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
I don't know, the last 3% on 'everything'? When you are so close the cap, that can mean losing on some very valuable powers; I'd say 2bil (which is just about the cost of one of the more expensive purples) would be worth it.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Didn't see anyone address this point...I want to make sure you understand that the Glad Armor +Def is going to cost you 2 billion by itself if you're lucky enough to get it on the market. (Last time I looked there were about 100 bidding and none for sale.) Buying it off market is possible, but it will cost you more.
So if your total budget is 2 billion, spending it on a GA is definitely NOT the way to go, and completely unnecessary, besides. |
Considering that a purple (by itself) mostly just gives you just enough recharge to be noticeable only on hasten - i.e., you'll get it 2 seconds quicker; that too usually at the cost of some defense bonuses.
So, not really getting the GA's not worth it argument here.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
OK, here is my Stone/Fire build, softcapped to Smash/Lethal with no purples, no Fighting Pool. I only need to pop into Granite when things get extra-tough. It still needs a few little things here and there, but Mickey is pretty good with this build. Most of the same slotting should work for Stone/Elec.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.81
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Mickey Mantel: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Rock Armor -- GftotA-Def(A), GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(3), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(3), GftotA-Run+(5)
Level 1: Scorch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), HO:Nucle(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(7), KntkC'bat-Knock%(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(9)
Level 2: Fire Sword -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(11), KntkC'bat-Knock%(13), HO:Nucle(13)
Level 4: Earth's Embrace -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(15), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Dct'dW-Heal(17), Dct'dW-Rchg(17)
Level 6: Combustion -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(19), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(19), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(21), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 8: Rooted -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(9), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(23)
Level 10: Teleport -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 14: Taunt -- Zinger-Taunt(A), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg(25), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(27), Zinger-Acc/Rchg(27), Zinger-Taunt/Rng(29), Zinger-Dam%(29)
Level 16: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(31), Numna-Heal/Rchg(31)
Level 18: Breath of Fire -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(33), Posi-Dmg/Rng(33)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(33), EndMod-I(34)
Level 22: Mud Pots -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(34), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(36), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(36), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36)
Level 24: Stone Skin -- ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(37), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(37)
Level 26: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(37), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(39), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(39), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40)
Level 30: Minerals -- GftotA-Run+(A), GftotA-Def(40)
Level 32: Granite Armor -- GftotA-Def(A), GftotA-Run+(40), DefBuff-I(42), ImpArm-ResDam(42), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(42), ResDam-I(43)
Level 35: Incinerate -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(43), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(43), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(45), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- Heal-I(A), EndMod-I(48), EndMod-I(48)
Level 47: Energy Torrent -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/Rng(50)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 4: Ninja Run
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Eh, but this doesn't soft-cap all even with granite form; how will it deal with Lord Recluse? :-\
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
If soft-capping is your goal, purples aren't going to help you anyway; so using that argument is a red herring, IMO.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
I don't know, the last 3% on 'everything'? When you are so close the cap, that can mean losing on some very valuable powers; I'd say 2bil (which is just about the cost of one of the more expensive purples) would be worth it.
Considering that a purple (by itself) mostly just gives you just enough recharge to be noticeable only on hasten - i.e., you'll get it 2 seconds quicker; that too usually at the cost of some defense bonuses. So, not really getting the GA's not worth it argument here. |
Your original post said (or seemed to) that your entire budget was 2 billion, and by itself, a GA +def is certainly not going to get you to the soft-cap. You may have to spend nearly that much again to soft-cap for all the other IOs needed to get there--the exact cost will vary widely depending on the set and how much additional defense is needed.
I wouldn't say that a GA +def is never worth the money; if you can afford it, it probably is if you're that close to soft-capping and have exhausted most other means of getting additional defense. But I would never recommend it to someone who was close to soft-capping and could get there by using the many less expensive options available.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
I've never played a Willpower tank, and I don't think I've ever been on a STF with one, so this is strictly from a theoretical standpoint:|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
@Katie: Any clue on how a WP does against Recluse?
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I expect an unsupported Willpower tank will have extreme difficulty with Lord Recluse. Willpower gets its survivability from high smashing/lethal resistance, and from recovery buffs from having a large number of enemies around you. Against Lord Recluse, you'll be facing strong energy attacks, and you'll have at best two enemies to regen off of (Recluse and a tower). Additionally, Recluse has an endurance-drain attack: without energy defense and without endurance drain protection, you can get sapped down to nothing in a hurry (I've seen it happen to an Invulnerability tank). Against Recluse, you'll want to have a good team to back you up: either another tank or illusion controller to tag-team with, or enough buffs to keep you alive.
BTW, not to resurrect a dead thread - but I wanted to post my results; I did _both tanks
In the end, I found stone WAY superior to WP for the end game - granite means that I can simply just go afk if I want to in front of +4 av's. Of course, the one downside is that if I don't have a kin along, I simply cannot use that tank. In the last few months, I've found that apparently Kins aren't really that hard to come by This is the final build on my stone tank - and he kicks the crap out of the WP.
I have an SD/Elec also now - and I am at a point that I'll probably just delete my WP tank if I need another alt slot. For my play style and IMHO, the best tank possible is a stoney, and then a SD; again, in MY humble opinion.
Code:
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Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
meh, I have a WP/EM tank with 3300+ hp and I have no probs tanking Recluse. At least for me Granite and Rooted are unbearable. the 1st Brute I ran was a granite Brute and needless to say it has been years since I played him.
A side note, I also don't like playing with Granite tanks, because they always trail me in moving to the next mob. Even with a Kin I'm always waiting on them.
But the funnest (except for when tanking Recluse) Tank I have is a SD/SS!
Not the way we run it - we run 30m stf's, 20m lgtfs, 20m tins, 15m itf's, 20m khans, etc, etc.
The way we run it, a wp tank will not just die, but die often. Stoney's the only way to go - though /elec and /dark do 'okay'
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
A WP in those situations will not die and die often - that's just hyperbole. That kind of talk is why I run WP and Shield to prove that Granite is not required. It also avoids having to building a team around getting a kin, which are always really nice, but only required with Granite.
Yes we all know that Granite is OP but is hardly neccessary
But if you luv it, then go ahead and play it
I've got two solid builds up (WP is expensive, but I am willing to afford that one expensive Gladiator's Armor piece
)
I love both builds, except I am not sure which one I really want to spend my inf on.
The things I really want are, in order of preference,
a.) Survivability - I HATE my tank dying or having to run. I want a tank that can stand in front of most AV's and shrug it off like a ant bite
b.) Speed of fighting - basically I don't really want to have to wait between mobs, like ever :-\
c.) Damage - Even though this isn't "as" important, but it is still important. My concern with my stone tank is that due to his low hasten, his damage output will be low
d.) Help the team - basically, if my tank should help keeping other people alive, as is his job
A few constraints,
.) I can afford maybe 'one' really expensive set/item (like a glad's armor or one expensive purple set). I can muster up to about 2bil inf that I am ready to blow on this one guy, but not much more; of course, the cheaper the better
.) I already have a lot of LOTG's and other unique's stocked up, so those really aren't much of a concern
.) No Hami's; I can never be on a specific time, so no raids for me
.) With stone, I _need tele and speed. The idea is to keep him in Granite form all the time, then tele around and have decent run speed (maybe not sprint, but not walk either)
.) I don't like relying on inspirations or temp powers; I like my character to be good to go at any point
I *LOVE* stone's resistances + def, but I am very concerned about psi defense and of course, usual playability (I don't plan on playing it in non-granite form, there is no point). WP is fantastic all around, but I am not sure how much of the one off damage he'll sustain from powerful AV's will be covered by his regen.
* I went Electric due to it's awesome AoE's; I really mostly use my tank in a team, so though single enemy damage is kinda important, but only kinda.
So, here are the builds - I've had a lot of amazing help from my SG (Go American Legion!), I am looking for more tweaking and/or comments from experienced players to help me make up my mind.
WP/Electric (it is slightly glitched with the stamina thing, ignore that),
Stone/Electric (his hasten is _really low, not quite sure how to get it up without affecting either defense or resistance),
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense