Side note: Herding/non-herding? Help us do SCIENCE!
By
BunnyAnomaly,
Posted on: 2010-11-11 24:13 in Tankers
There are too many variables to consider.
Your team could not have a clue what they are doing. In that case, herding and pulling to prevent aggro from extra spawns would be faster because there would be less dying.
Your team could be super-awesome. If people don't die like squishy blasters, then rushing in and killing things fast with AoE will be much faster than waiting for enemies to herd around a tanker after pulling.
Having a second tanker or someone who can hold aggro on 16 more enemies immediately makes your group better at rushing spawns rather than pulling.
It isn't quite as cut and dry as that person told you. A good tanker should know when to pull and when their team can handle just rushing in. By the way, who told you that herding was always faster?
It's against forum policy to name people, but if you ever play on Virtue, and get a tell "Can I interest you in an SG?" from a hero you don't know, that's probably the guys. They train everyone in their SG to play this way.
My very rough experimental data is that it seems to be a lot slower, but I wanted to do a more controlled experiment. At least one of the runs, the group had two tanks present, a defender, at least one troller, and no one was getting seriously injured unless it was the tank during the initial pull (when the troller and defender weren't nearby to provide, say, manuevers, FFG, heals...).
Tanks can't help but herd. Now someone may have the idea that it is a case of go getting and bringing back but that's not how it is all the time and sure as hell don't have to be like that all the time. I wouldn't consider that efficient in every case.
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I think we're getting into definitions now; in my opinion we have two basic strategies.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Tanks can't help but herd. Now someone may have the idea that it is a case of go getting and bringing back but that's not how it is all the time and sure as hell don't have to be like that all the time. I wouldn't consider that efficient in every case.
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"Gathering" or "Bunching" would be the tanker grabbing a spawn and getting them to gather in close to him, but not bringing them to another location.
"Herding" on the other hand would be the tanker running into a room, snagging the aggro cap and then bringing the mobs out into the hall or to another area for the team to take down.
Both techniques have merit depending on the circumstance but in general "Gathering" is more efficient since it's much faster. I see herding as a safety issue; if a room is too crowded then you'll have more mobs in aggro range than a tanker can control leading to all the extra mobs going after the rest of the team. This is typified by the infamous "Room of Death", the multi level lab room with the platform in the middle surrounded by an elevated catwalk. In this case it's much safer to have the team wait outside in the corridor while the tank grabs aggro and brings them back. One or two cycles of this should thin things out enough to go back to more conventional gathering techniques.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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I know exactly who you are talking about. He has his own way of playing the game and anyone in his SG who disagrees with him gets the boot. I got kicked out for proving that going over the resistance cap by slotting Unstoppable (by ~20%, not some insignificant number) was wasting slots in his builds he was providing to SG members. There is no point in arguing with him or attempting to prove him wrong. He will just ignore your logic and claim his superior experience makes him right. Besides, most of the other SG's know who he is and just avoid him.|
Originally Posted by seebs
It's against forum policy to name people, but if you ever play on Virtue, and get a tell "Can I interest you in an SG?" from a hero you don't know, that's probably the guys. They train everyone in their SG to play this way.
My very rough experimental data is that it seems to be a lot slower, but I wanted to do a more controlled experiment. At least one of the runs, the group had two tanks present, a defender, at least one troller, and no one was getting seriously injured unless it was the tank during the initial pull (when the troller and defender weren't nearby to provide, say, manuevers, FFG, heals...). |
Most experienced players know that herding as you describe it is safer but slower. When groups can handle faster speeds, people start jumping into packs of mobs before the previous one is dead. I'm usually that person jumping into packs on my scrapper.
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Agreed, Awesome. There's not just one right way to play this game. The right approach varies based on many factors: the exact type of tank, the composition of the team, the nature of the opposition, the level of the team, the map involved, etc. For example, if you don't have a tank, you obviously can't have a tank run around and herd. A WP tank often has a hard time against mobs that use ranged Fire or Energy attacks, and Fire or Invulnerability have a hard time against psi. But you can still decimate mobs quickly by adapting your tactics.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Both techniques have merit depending on the circumstance but in general "Gathering" is more efficient since it's much faster. I see herding as a safety issue; if a room is too crowded then you'll have more mobs in aggro range than a tanker can control leading to all the extra mobs going after the rest of the team. This is typified by the infamous "Room of Death", the multi level lab room with the platform in the middle surrounded by an elevated catwalk. In this case it's much safer to have the team wait outside in the corridor while the tank grabs aggro and brings them back. One or two cycles of this should thin things out enough to go back to more conventional gathering techniques.
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In short, flexibility and understanding which tactics are the key to success. Not some rote process of parading mobs around with taunt.
I play lots of different kinds of character, including many kinds of tanks. I personally despise the whole herd a room up and deposit them at the door mentality. It's boring for everyone, including the tank. That pretty much makes it irrelevant as to whether it's actually more efficient or not. It's boring, and the game is not supposed to be boring.
Most of the time the best tactic is to take on one group at a time: tank rushes in first, grabs aggro, gets them to group tighter, then everyone else hits them with debuffs, AoEs, etc. It keeps everyone active all the time. Care needs to be exercised to make sure that there isn't another group nearby that will be attracted by the combat and surprise you, so you may need to pull the group back away from other mobs a short distance. But no long, elaborate herding scheme is required.
Many people think that it's more efficient to gather two or three groups together so you can use AoEs on them. The problem is that AoEs have a maximum number of targets (at most 16), so if you gather more than 16 you're not going to affect them all anyway. Eight-person teams therefore won't gain much efficiency by amassing 30 or 40 mobs in one location for nukes. And the likelihood of squishies getting killed increases drastically because tankers can't keep 30 targets taunted.
The rush-in tactic works pretty much with any team composition, though the point man may differ if you don't have a tank. For example, if you've got a dark or rad defender you might send in the scrappers and the dark/rad simultaneously with the dark/rad applying the acc debuff toggle to blunt the alpha on the scrappers. If you have all blasters, defenders and controllers, it's even easier: everyone just hits the group with everything at once (debuffers leading with their debuffs, of course).
The problem with the tanker herding is that it stunts a player's thought process, making them think nothing is possible without a tanker. It also doesn't work for many tankers in many situations. I'm sure you've all been on a team with a Fire or Invulnerability tanker who's doing his first Carnie mission and just gets killed by psychic damage every time he tries to herd a big room. Then everyone stands around wondering what to do because the tanker's dead in the middle of giant mob and no one has Recall Friend.
The thing that I dislike most about the herding is the sheer preposterousness of it. It makes absolutely no sense for all these guys to chase this tanker around that they can't affect at all. I don't remember any fights in the movies or in comics being like this: you either jump them by surprise or engage them straight up. There are no silly conga lines of taunted mobs running to meet their doom from three blasters hiding around the corner.
Yeah, sometimes we have to stoop to that tactic. But a steady diet of that is just boring.
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Adaptability is the signature of a good player.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
There's not just one right way to play this game. The right approach varies based on many factors...
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On topic:
When I tank, I almost invariably "herd forward," meaning that I grab aggro and drag it forwards to the next group. My teams generally consist of at least three "DKTF regulars" who can handle the size of mobs this generates.
When the team isn't tough enough or the enemy type is a bit too powerful, then I stop herding forward and simply go with "jump in and condense." I run in, attack stuff, taunt fringe stuff and generally let the whole group of enemies pile on me. I don't have trouble holding aggro and don't need to "herd backwards" to keep attention on me. Generally, when the enemy group has dwindled enough, I'll jump ahead to the next group to condense while the team mops up the remainder.
When there are two enemy groups close together and the team cannot handle both at the same time, I jump into one group and [Salt Crystals], then jump back to the other group. It's usually dead before the sleep wears off.
When the room contains waaaaayyyy too many enemies and the team can't handle it all at once (I'm thinking AV room of the first Kahn mission with a team that lacks defenders), I herd backwards. It's generally the best way to keep the team safe and make the fight possible. It is not the faster alternative if the team can handle the room and all its glorious aggro.
When I'm on my warshade, I just do my own thing and meet back at the AV.
Where to now?
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I'm going to add "Cursing," which is a third technique in which the Tanker runs into a spawn, and while he waits a second for it to cluster around him more closely, a Peacebringer blows the spawn to the four winds, widely scattering them across the room.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I think we're getting into definitions now; in my opinion we have two basic strategies.
"Gathering" or "Bunching" would be the tanker grabbing a spawn and getting them to gather in close to him, but not bringing them to another location. "Herding" on the other hand would be the tanker running into a room, snagging the aggro cap and then bringing the mobs out into the hall or to another area for the team to take down. |
Optionally, a Controller now immobilizes them in their new positions.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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LMAO.....I cant tell you how many times that has happened to me when I'm on a PUG with my tank.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
I'm going to add "Cursing," which is a third technique in which the Tanker runs into a spawn, and while he waits a second for it to cluster around him more closely, a Peacebringer blows the spawn to the four winds, widely scattering them across the room.
Optionally, a Controller now immobilizes them in their new positions. |
Herding is best when there's multiple people doing it.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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this..everything/anything else you guys talk about is a waste of time
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
A good tanker should know when to pull and when their team can handle just rushing in.
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So... recruitment by an unknown hero?|
Originally Posted by seebs
It's against forum policy to name people, but if you ever play on Virtue, and get a tell "Can I interest you in an SG?" from a hero you don't know, that's probably the guys. They train everyone in their SG to play this way.
My very rough experimental data is that it seems to be a lot slower, but I wanted to do a more controlled experiment. At least one of the runs, the group had two tanks present, a defender, at least one troller, and no one was getting seriously injured unless it was the tank during the initial pull (when the troller and defender weren't nearby to provide, say, manuevers, FFG, heals...). |
*smirk*
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Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
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So you're guy that throws trops on the tank in the middle of a spawn and now you are worried about the fastest killing method?
It might be just me but it really looks like you are out to make this guild/clan whatever you call them here look bad.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=244099
So since everything this guy does is so bad and you just cant seem to stand him or his clan or the way he plays. why do you keep hunting with him?
So you got in a group with a tank that wanted to herd and ask you not to throw caltrops. I can only assume by the length of your dissertations that you must have hunted with him quite a bit.
Now you never mention any major wipes or not being able to complete missions but you are headstrong in coming to the forums and making him look like a jackass.
Take a look back at all the messed up groups you have been in and ask yourself was it really that bad?
Did everyone know who to follow?
Were controllers caging mobs 20 feet apart?
Did scrappers, brutes and others pull 2 or 3 mobs?
Was the AOE good?
Did you have to chase down mobs?
Did everyone hunt as a group or just run off to do their own thing?
Were buffs easier to keep on the group that was together?
I mean really as much as you have typed and as much effort as you have put into criticizing this guild and tank; was it really that bad?
Maybe I am still to new and still to use to all the jerks in wow but I just don't see where this is a major issue.
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I wouldn't say "worried". Curious.|
Originally Posted by InUse
So you're guy that throws trops on the tank in the middle of a spawn and now you are worried about the fastest killing method?
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Despite your endless efforts to turn this into a personal thing, it really is a matter of wanting to learn more about the game. People (who weren't you, because you were too concerned with whether or not it was personal to answer the question) did point out considerations I hadn't been aware of in my thread about 'trops, and now I know how to use the power better.
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| It might be just me but it really looks like you are out to make this guild/clan whatever you call them here look bad. |
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| So since everything this guy does is so bad and you just cant seem to stand him or his clan or the way he plays. why do you keep hunting with him? |
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| So you got in a group with a tank that wanted to herd and ask you not to throw caltrops. I can only assume by the length of your dissertations that you must have hunted with him quite a bit. |
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| Now you never mention any major wipes or not being able to complete missions but you are headstrong in coming to the forums and making him look like a jackass. |
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| Take a look back at all the messed up groups you have been in and ask yourself was it really that bad? |
There is no such thing as a bad group. Some groups are good. Other groups are funny.
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| I mean really as much as you have typed and as much effort as you have put into criticizing this guild and tank; was it really that bad? |
I should point out, though, this is not a single tank; it's a large number of tanks, all trained by the same guy to use his tactics. (Not the guy I was talking to; he's one of the people who got trained to play this way.) But I figure, if I can get solid evidence either way, I'm definitely going to be able to play better as a result, and I may get to help someone else play better.
The big error in your thinking is that you're viewing this as a significant amount of effort, and assuming that my goal is to criticize. I've already told you it wasn't, and if you'd go look at the trops thread, you'd see that I've become convinced that there were issues I hadn't taken into account and that my strategy was wrong. That was the whole point.
If instead of making up this fantasy motivation of making someone "look bad", you looked at what I say I am trying to do, and whether or not I actually do it, you might have caught on that I'm just doing my usual aspie thing and trying obsessively to master a system because that's what makes systems fun to me.
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| Maybe I am still to new and still to use to all the jerks in wow but I just don't see where this is a major issue. |
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He can't be proven wrong, so there is no point in investigating this further. His "superior experience" at the game makes him infallible. Even if you manage to use logic to "prove" him wrong, he will always be right. I "proved" him wrong several times on his own guild forums and his "superior experience" won every time. He posted the most bizarre and unorthodox (ineffective) builds and commented about builds in ways that made me wonder how he stayed leader of the guild for so long. My best guess is the people were just looking for a place to belong and didn't care who was leading the show.|
Originally Posted by seebs
It would be interesting to me to see how he reacted if he were proven wrong
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This is not the appropriate place to share those posts. PM me and I might be able to share them.
This really won't 'prove' anything. There's way too many factors here that affect speed.
My two cents: Sometimes herding is fast. Really, really fast. Like running an ITF and while you are killing a double spawn of enemies, having an Ice Tank (or two, or equivalent) ninja run/sprint ahead and start a whole room running into your little killing field until you've made a pure mockery of the aggro cap.
Then there's when herding is slow, when you don't move until the last mob is down, and you pull just one at a time while everyone waits.
Which are you trying to test?
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=244253
Basically, I'm looking for a few people to run a specific mission using a couple of different strategies, and report time taken. I got into an argument with someone who insists that "herding" (meaning you tell everyone to stay back, go grab a spawn, bring it back, and then tell them when they can start attacking) is the FASTEST way to run missions.
No amount of argumentation based on anecdotes will convince him, but SCIENCE convinces everybody. (I know this to be true, because I have proved it. WITH SCIENCE!!!)
Someone suggested I wave this notion in front of tanks.
If you want to debate or present anecdotes, I'm fine with that, but please keep the linked thread limited to discussions of the methodology or posting results, I'm trying to keep the SCIENCE!!! pure and unbiased.