Bane Spider or Night Widow

Why do you keep saying this when it isn't true? My bane can kill single targets faster than your NW. In a team where aoe makes more of an impact the team with my bane can kill things faster than the team with your NW.

How is that significantly less damage?

Banes have the highest st damage output and they are the best -res debuffers. There is no perhaps about it.

The actual truth is that NW's are the ones that don't dominate at any single category. Crabs have the highest aoe and are the tankiest. Bane's have the highest st damage and the best -res. Fort's have the highest team mitigation.

NW's are really good at a lot of things, but I'd say Forts win at being the most flexible.

Um, your incorrect, NWs have the highest ST DPS, Banes have the highest burst with stacking -res and stealth strikes.

I'm sorry, not going to go through the math with you. But a NW's damage exceed a Banes by a significant margin. You're free to believe whatever you wish though, but the numbers are there.

What attack chain are you using for the NW and Bane to come to that conclusion? I'm not saying you're wrong. Just curious.

The highest ST damage output is NW. I don't need proof. I have both melee-focused Blood Widow and Bane (Shatter and Shatter Armor). Both are lvl 50 with sets.

NW wins dps by a pretty large margin but Bane makes you feel like you deal more damage because of the sound effect. Shatter is a good attack, don't get me wrong but by the time Bane finishes Shatter, NW already did Lunge + Slash. That's how quick NW's attack chain is.


Which makes me wonder. Did you play NW at all?? Did you level her to high level to compare?

If anything:

NW excels in Melee ST damage by a pretty large margin of the 4 branches

Crab excels in AoE damage and pets

Fort excels in Controls and Range damage

Bane has access to controls, debuffs, buffs, pets, melee and range but excels in NOTHING. (I consider Venom Grenade belongs to the Soldier branch. Venom > Surveillance)


Now, you can argue that Bane doesn't survive that bad because Bane does have a lot of knockdowns which makes him a bit safer sometimes. NW, while having high defense, has no controls at all and only -slow/recharge.

neat. Should I congratulate you for taking a position of ignorance on this matter? 50 of each. The NW is IO'd to the gills, the bane isn't. I haven't turned up his def and his recharge is still just shy of perma pets. The second build on the NW is a heavily IO'd (perma ML) fort, which I personally find a lot more effective than the NW.

However, I can simulate how the Bane build will be once finished with a small def insp and the base salvage recharge buff.

Additionally, I have spoke extensively with Frosticus about his research into Banes, which interestingly enough came after he peaked out the abilities of his own NW at just shy of 250dps in game. While the fact that my bane can do heaps more st damage than my NW is obvious to me I still defer to his knowledge when it comes to making extreme damage toons, which can be confirmed by a quick glance at the rikti pylon thread where his own toons sit at the top with nothing even approaching the mark. If he tells me Bane's have almost inconceivable dps potential compared to what we are used to seeing as "high" damage toons then I believe him. Also I've seen it for myself with my own. It is some what situational, but insane is the only work I found fitting.

The ONLY thing holding a bane back from slaughtering every time posted for rikti pylons (short of Frosticus' ill/cold) is that the aoe spam will wipe the pets because the bane needs to be in melee and so are they.

You don't understand it if this is the position you hold.

Ahh see I'm talking about a bane that uses the damage tools available to them. I'm very glad you agree that a bane that does that is potentially a lot more damaging (st) than a NW. I've haven't contested that a petless bane does less damage than a NW any more than I've contested that a NW without mindlink does less team buffing than a bane...

Banes are not any different than any AT combo in the game. They are a concert of all of their powers. A blaster that skips aim/bu does less damage than one that takes those powers. A MM that skips a tier of pets has less survivability in BG mode and less damage potential. A NW is very easy to make tough and highly damaging. However they are restricted on the top end because all they are is raw damage. The result is that while a bane may appear to be lower damage, when you start layering in the extra sources of damage and the damage boosting abilities the results are among the highest possible in the game.

People can choose to believe that or not. All I know is that I've taken my unfinished bane, shored up the survivability with insp (until the build can be finished) and killed AV's at a rate that would make a NW's head spin. Unfortunately the aoe size of the pylons spam attack is just too large for the build to excel at that specific high hp task.

I do use the pets in fact. Still not seeing this exponential jump where you're going from doing about 20% less DPS to significantly more. But please share a build, because I might be missing something.

I DID NOT KNOW you were adding pet's damage into consideration.... T_T

Using pet has two folds. They either add a lot of damage or don't add a lot if they die/stuck or simply chasing a runner.

I don't like using pylon test as an example that Bane > NW's dps. That pylon situation is too extreme. On the other hand, I was doing tip mission against Longbows at +4 x8. In that situation, the two reinforcement pets will die within 20s for sure and that's with double maneuver on my Bane. Yes, I do like the two spiders and that's why my Bane carries double maneuver but even that, my NW still kills faster but it doesn't mean I don't like my Bane. I just hate Bane's range attacks.

As for Frosticus, is he using follow up or build up in NW build? And maybe NW with patron blood widow pet can add even more dps?

You missed the whole point, still trying to compare a Bane to a Widow. They are just about better at everything?

So Widows can summon more pets? Widows get better resistances? Widows get more HP? Widow can do more -res? The only thing Widows have over Banes are independent Damage and Defense.

I have played them both to a comfortable IOed 50 and I have to say just in a personal opinion that Banes are so much more fun to play with, Widows are boring and they use up a lot of end, even my scrappers don't use as much as my Widow. Yeah, when it comes down to doing something like +4/x8 missions, I would agree a Widow is much better suited for that type of combat than a Bane, but my Bane Solos AVs a lot easier than my Widow does, I mean the Pets add so much damage, definitely after debuffing the AV down to -60% resistance. As for the pets, Mine are pretty sturdy, I put both pet resistance and defense uniques in them and still have them High Acc, High Damage, and Capped recharge, and the pets are just 5 secs shy of being perma.

So I will give Widows better defense, but when it comes down to damage Banes will always have 2 more sources (at minimum) than Widows do, and considering the amount of debuffs they lay down, they make their own damage higher along with the pets making them a more useful tool.

P.S. IOs go both way, Widows need it for perma Mind Link, Banes need it for Pets, while one is easier than the other, if you are going to include it for one you must include for both, without perma Mind Link Widows fall a long way shy of reaching a Banes defense as Banes have higher Defense in TT:M and Higher unsuppressed defense in Cloaking Device.

I believe Cloaking device keeps 3.75% and Mask Presense only keeps 2.5%, So in a Base SO build Banes would have an upper hand in resistances and defenses.

And Jibikao, by saying this...
You have proved how much better a Bane is than a Crab, because as we all know pets are a big part of this AoE damage that they have. (I find it real funny that people are quick to use pets to include in Crabs AoE damage, Yet do not want to use them in a Banes damage output)

Would you happen to have those builds? I'm reworking my NW & Bane for i19 and I'm looking for some ideas.



That's my main problem with pets in general, and using them as a DPS source.

My playstyle is just too fast to allow for pets to add their, largely, uncontrolled and unfocused damage to the final package.

The situations where it does all come together, it is pretty nuts.



Have you thought about bringing a friend along on a support character to try and keep the pets alive?

While it's not exactly a "solo" pylon result, as long as they don't add any buffs or debuffs that will affect the DPS outcome - I really don't see a problem with it to use that as a guage for damage output.

After all, most of the test results in that thread are pretty unrealistic, vacuum situations to begin with - like near perma fully saturated Soul Drain.

This is my problem as well... the randomness of the brainless pets. Unless you take provoke to keep the aggro off of them they happily engage whatever they see and before you know it they're dead... and you spend a great deal of time provoking as they have ADHD and change targets every five seconds. And when you stealth up to a group, they run in like puppies in heat and take a beatdown. You literally have to babysit them to keep them alive, which, IMO, negates a good portion of their purpose (additional damage and control)... esp on a perma-pet build that is suppost to have them up and running most of the time.

Of course, this is on +1/x8 maps, so near-instant pet meltdown is expected.

I guess this is why I find banes lacking. I don't have the patience for the pets, and without them my bane falls behind my widow in both ST and AE damage.

I wish the devs would implement a training dummy, ala RWZ, that was there for the sole purpose of recording dps. It could have adjustable resists to boot to simulate different encounters. Hard evidence gathered from such an event would put to rest a lot of these squabbles. I'm curious what a bane is truly capable of, both with and without its pets.
And what a widow is capable of with shatter armor + BS spider pet.

Really helps if you don't ignore the parts that don't support your point. What I said was:

So no, Widows can't summon more pets, but Crabs can.
Widows don't have better res, but Crabs do.
Banes have more ST -res than even Crabs so you're right there.

And Widows have independent damage, more defense, significant psi resists, -regen, significant -recharge/slow, significantly more mez protection and -to-hit debuffs.

It's times like this where I really wonder if you actually have played a NW at all since you ignore one of the best passives in the game.

Night Widow

CT: D - 7.5% melee
TT:M - 5% to positions
FORESIGHT - 7.5% to positions
Unsuppressed Mask Presence - 2.5%

Totals: 22.5% Melee; 15% ranged, AoE

Bane Spider

CT: D - 7.5% ranged
TT:M - 10% to positions
Unsuppressed Cloak - 3.75%

Totals: 13.75% Melee; 21.25% Ranged, 13.75% AoE

So with SOs, Banes lose in the most important position for their playstyle melee, lose in AoE, and get smoked when Elude is up. Even when Mind Link is up they only retain a tiny advantage in ranged, while getting mauled in melee and AoE.

That is a pointless argument that can be said to make any AT look horrid
Blasters have better ranged damage than Scrappers and Tanks have better resistances than Scrappers does that mean Scrappers suck?

You can't use the strengths of two different ATs and compare it to another, that's why there are different ATs. If you are going to compare Widows and Banes leave it at that, don't bring in a Crab, because yeah a Crab is stronger in certain areas like Pets and resistance, but they have very low melee damage compared to Banes. I wouldn't even say Crabs are stronger in AoE because, if you wanted to you could go Build Up --> Venom Grenade --> Heavy Burst --> Frag Grenade --> Mace Beam Volley --> Mace Beam Blast, Just saying that if someone wanted to they could probably make a pretty nice ranged beast with Wolf and Bane Powers and keep even bosses at bay with access to 2 AoE Immo. With that being said, I don't think Crabs are AoE kings, because as most have mentioned pets are very fragile, and the Bane branch has access to more AoEs.



Banes do more overall damage melee and range, ST and AoE. That's like trying to compare a Defender to a Controller and not include the pets.


I sure did, apologies, it is one of, if not the best passive in the game.

See, what you keep getting hung up on is this idea that I think Banes suck. I don't and have said that they're cool and good at what they do. It's just that among the VEATs I think they're the least among equals. By that I mean that while they're a tank mage like the other three branches, the Banes really have very little specifically to speak for them.

I really don't see how that's controversial. But in any event, I'm not saying Banes suck or that they aren't fun to play. They don't suck and they are fun to play.

Hmm... I thought this was the Soldiers of Arachnos forum. The SoA are one AT. This is like comparing Nin/Regen Stalkers to DM/EA Stalkers. Same AT, different abilities.

Actually Arachnos Widow and Arachnos Soldier are two different ATs, Yeah they are both Epic meaning they both have an extra storyline, but AT wise they are different. So I stand by my earlier statement, its like trying to compare a controller to a defender, or apple to an orange.

Soldiers and Widows are the same ATs like how Warshades and Peacebringers are the same AT.



They aren't.