Banes are more closely related to Stalkers. Their Cloaking Device provides a higher stealth rating than Widow's Mask Presence. You can stand right next to a baddie with it on and won't be detected (Unlike Widows who'll be discovered at close range). They can also perform an Executioner's Strike from Hide. On top of those two things, they're better suited to extreme burst damage as opposed to really high DPS like Widows.
Night Widows are more like Scrappers with stealth as opposed to Stalkers. If you're looking for something similar to the latter you definately want a Bane. Only problem is the Soldier version of Combat Training: Defensive only provides Ranged Defense so your overall Melee Defense pre-IOs will be lower than a Widows. Also, you'll be lacking any means of boosting it in an emergency (i.e. Mind Link and Elude).
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Can they solo EBs and AVs?
Are they expensive to build, I only have 1 bill to spend on a build
Yeah they can solo EBs just fine. AVs require significant IO set investment but that's the case regardless of what AT you play.
As for expensive, not really. One bil is way more than enough to softcap and take care of any other aspects you wanna enhance. Most expensive thing is gonna be Touch of Death pieces. The set provides 3.75% Melee Defense but you need all six pieces. If you decide to use 'em they're gonna cost you. But overall a good build can be done for two hundred mil or less.
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) Having played both at lvl 50, I have to say Bane is more like Stalker with War Mace. NW's dps is better but Bane's mace attacks feel more Stalkerish to me for some reasons. Both are good at dealing damage, although NW survives better without additional set bonuses.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I used to have a claws/SR scrapper, but now that I have an IO'd night widow, I don't think I'll ever play that scrapper again. DPS on widows is really something - I soloed a rikti pylon in around 10 mins. Plus, widows don't require much to softcap; I only need a set of Zephyrs to softcap range+AoE (melee is at 55%), and combat jumping is the only pool power that gives extra defense. I frankenslotted my most-used attacks to maximize endurance reduction, since widow attacks do use a very large amount compared to how quick they are.
I've only played a widow and have only seen banes in action. From my observations, banes are better suited for burst damage, since their attacks are a bit slow. Also, banes have fewer powers that give defense, so more defensive set bonuses are required to softcap.
I forgot to mention that banes can potentially stack up a -80% resistance/-100% toxic resistance on a single target.
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Night Widows have higher DPS and Burst damage than Banes and are generally better than most Stalkers besides. Banes have little advantages over Night Widows and what advantages they do have are easily mitigated by easily obtainable IOs.
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This I agree. I put a few good sets in my Blood Widow and her damage is amazing! But she is not a Stalker because she doesn't use "Hidden". |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Night Widows have higher DPS and Burst damage than Banes and are generally better than most Stalkers besides. Banes have little advantages over Night Widows and what advantages they do have are easily mitigated by easily obtainable IOs.
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I think if the OP wants a Stalker, I would suggest Bane just because Bane's range attacks suck so hard that it is always better to open with mace attacks.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Slash is better than Shatter;|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
This I agree. I put a few good sets in my Blood Widow and her damage is amazing! But she is not a Stalker because she doesn't use "Hidden".
I think if the OP wants a Stalker, I would suggest Bane just because Bane's range attacks suck so hard that it is always better to open with mace attacks. |
Lunge is A LOT better than Pulverize;
Strike is better than Bash.
Night Widows better than Banes. The only downside being that you do have to go buy a Stealth IO, but that's hardly a deal breaker. The DPA on Night Widow claw attacks is out of this world. Their sky-high recharge and endurance costs are the only limiters. However, in a stalking situation, these drawbacks are much less important.
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Did you post in the Improve Bane thread that I created? :P |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Slash is better than Shatter;
Lunge is A LOT better than Pulverize; Strike is better than Bash. Night Widows better than Banes. The only downside being that you do have to go buy a Stealth IO, but that's hardly a deal breaker. The DPA on Night Widow claw attacks is out of this world. Their sky-high recharge and endurance costs are the only limiters. However, in a stalking situation, these drawbacks are much less important. |
Well, I kinda like the knockdowns from Shatter and Crowd Control but yeah, there is no question that NW's damage is a lot higher especially with set bonuses.
Lunge's DAP is crazy high.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
How is the AoE on them i like to solo in huge mobs( i dont farm)
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Banes who take the Huntsman powers do EXTREMELY well in AoE damage. Not as well as Crabs, but I'm not sure anything does as well as Crabs. Pure Mace Banes are lol in AoE sadly.|
Originally Posted by Shadows Strike
How is the AoE on them i like to solo in huge mobs( i dont farm)
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Night Widows are solid in AoE, but nothing like what Huntsman/Crabs/Fortunatas can put out. They have two very respectable cones, and one of the best PBAoEs in the game in Spin.
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Yes. I believe that if you simply create Mace versions of the signature Huntsman AoE powers, you fix any real problem for Banes. That or upping the damage on the ranged Mace attacks considerably.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Did you post in the Improve Bane thread that I created? :P
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Yes a NW on their own is more damaging than a Bane on their own. Though if you min/max both the difference is much smaller than I think most people realize.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Did you post in the Improve Bane thread that I created? :P
Well, I kinda like the knockdowns from Shatter and Crowd Control but yeah, there is no question that NW's damage is a lot higher especially with set bonuses. Lunge's DAP is crazy high. |
IIRC Frosticus showed me that a min/max NW could do around 260 and a similarly expensive bane could do around 220 dps.
NW is also more survivable with easily softcapped def, so it may seem like the NW is clearly superior. But when a bane pulls out his pets his damage skyrockets past what a NW can do. Additionally a Bane brings way more offensive forcemultiplication to a team whereas a NW brings more defensive buffing. I prefer the offense, but both are great.
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Well put, like I say in most Bane vs Widow Comparisons, they really shouldn't be compared to each other, as they do have some similarities they are overall different.
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Originally Posted by Thinkso
Yes a NW on their own is more damaging than a Bane on their own. Though if you min/max both the difference is much smaller than I think most people realize.
IIRC Frosticus showed me that a min/max NW could do around 260 and a similarly expensive bane could do around 220 dps. NW is also more survivable with easily softcapped def, so it may seem like the NW is clearly superior. But when a bane pulls out his pets his damage skyrockets past what a NW can do. Additionally a Bane brings way more offensive forcemultiplication to a team whereas a NW brings more defensive buffing. I prefer the offense, but both are great. |
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Sorry i am asking so many questions.
Can i skip some of the defensive powers if i get perma mind link
and does having perma mind link's defence make up for not having a pet?
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That, and any reasonable analysis shows that Night Widows do more damage and are substantially more survivable than Banes.|
Originally Posted by Da_Captain
Well put, like I say in most Bane vs Widow Comparisons, they really shouldn't be compared to each other, as they do have some similarities they are overall different.
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Thankfully if Banes use their Huntsman powers they do provide some decent debuffing and AoE damage, so it's not all bad. It's just that they'll never be as good at NW in melee or as good at AoE as Crabs. Nice path, taken in isolation Banes are fine. But NWs are better at just about everything Banes do. And for what they aren't, it's better to switch to a Crab build.
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The pets are nice, but it's not mind link that makes up for them, it's the substantially better damage.|
Originally Posted by Shadows Strike
Sorry i am asking so many questions.
Can i skip some of the defensive powers if i get perma mind link and does having perma mind link's defence make up for not having a pet? |
As for skipping defense powers, take them all. What are you going to take in their place that's worth more to you?
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More attacks and Stealth from the concealment pool
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I really don't agree with this position. Yes a NW is more damaging than a Bane that skips key damage powers. A bane that forgoes its pets is a Bane that is consciously reducing their direct damage abilities by a very significant margin. That is fine if someone chooses to do so, but I wouldn't say bane's are more defensive just because someone skips key defensive powers on their NW.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That, and any reasonable analysis shows that Night Widows do more damage and are substantially more survivable than Banes.
Thankfully if Banes use their Huntsman powers they do provide some decent debuffing and AoE damage, so it's not all bad. It's just that they'll never be as good at NW in melee or as good at AoE as Crabs. Nice path, taken in isolation Banes are fine. But NWs are better at just about everything Banes do. And for what they aren't, it's better to switch to a Crab build. |
Just using venom grenade in a team makes a Bane contribute way more than any NW in terms of team offense. A Bane could use nothing but that power and the team would complete missions faster than the most pimped out NW in its place.
NW's are better from a defensive vantage and Banes are better from an offensive vantage whether solo or teamed. Where each excels they are a fair bit better than the other.
Crabs are pretty beastly, but are a whole different discussion just like Forts. Both those branches have a very different playstyle than banes and NW's who tend to play much more similarly, just with different areas of excellence.
Personally I don't think a NW is better than a Bane or visa versa, they just focus on different strengths. I have little issues with mitigation so I tend to like my bane a bit better than my NW for the superior offense (solo and teamed), but I also know that some people enjoy the higher survivability of the NW (solo or teamed)
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My Bane provides more AoE damage then NWs with Crowd Control and Venom Nade. Provide more force multiplication with surveillance, venom nade and shatter armor (its a PPP, but what VEAT other then Bane is going to use it reguarly) Also the stacking res provides so much more burst damage for killing things like bosses during teaming compared to my NW.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That, and any reasonable analysis shows that Night Widows do more damage and are substantially more survivable than Banes.
Thankfully if Banes use their Huntsman powers they do provide some decent debuffing and AoE damage, so it's not all bad. It's just that they'll never be as good at NW in melee or as good at AoE as Crabs. Nice path, taken in isolation Banes are fine. But NWs are better at just about everything Banes do. And for what they aren't, it's better to switch to a Crab build. |
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Well, I take issue with the AoE thing. Spin, Eviscerate, Dart Burst, and Psy Scream give you some very good AoE, more than a Bane who's switching between his mace and gun trying to keep up. And if you're going to add in PPPs, then Widows can take their boss's lovely Dark Obliteration for even more AoE with none of the annoying scatter that Banes have to deal with in Frag and the Mace AoEs.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
My Bane provides more AoE damage then NWs with Crowd Control and Venom Nade. Provide more force multiplication with surveillance, venom nade and shatter armor (its a PPP, but what VEAT other then Bane is going to use it reguarly) Also the stacking res provides so much more burst damage for killing things like bosses during teaming compared to my NW.
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As for the -res provided by Banes, I have no quarrel with that. You all are right. In a team that certainly provides a great advantage to Banes. Whether is worth doing significantly less damage and having significantly less mitigation is up to the player.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I just wanted to note, that I like Banes a lot too. I'm not saying they're weak. In fact, they're probably the most balanced of the VEATs. But they aren't the best at anything other than perhaps ST resist debuffing. There no bias in that, it's simply the truth.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Yes.
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Originally Posted by Shadows Strike
Can they solo EBs and AVs?
Are they expensive to build, I only have 1 bill to spend on a build |
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Redraw from Mace -> rifle is just about nonexistant, its only the other way around that causes problems. Heavy Burst + Venom Nade + Crowd control easily does more AoE damage then your chain and takes less time to animate even when you include redraw. Its not about the number of AoEs, its about how effective they are.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Well, I take issue with the AoE thing. Spin, Eviscerate, Dart Burst, and Psy Scream give you some very good AoE, more than a Bane who's switching between his mace and gun trying to keep up. And if you're going to add in PPPs, then Widows can take their boss's lovely Dark Obliteration for even more AoE with none of the annoying scatter that Banes have to deal with in Frag and the Mace AoEs.
As for the -res provided by Banes, I have no quarrel with that. You all are right. In a team that certainly provides a great advantage to Banes. Whether is worth doing significantly less damage and having significantly less mitigation is up to the player. |
Edit: Also realistically most NWs are not going to take every AoE they can pick up, and Banes don't need to in order to match their AoE.
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I am looking for another toon to play like my lvl 50 Stalker. I saw that Bane spiders and Night Widows had placate and a stealth, but I am not sure which one to make. I love AoE and I mostly team, but i solo from time to time. Please help me chose.