Idea for a New Powerset(s): Munitions Control (and Assault)
By
BenRGamer,
Posted on: 2010-09-28 22:31 in Suggestions and Ideas
"Powerset for natural characters" fallacy aside, I have no complaints with the sets as presented, and recognise the need for "gadget-based" control sets. I have, in fact, suggested such myself in the past. We already have pretty much all of the powers for a support set and a control set between various other powersets and NPCs, as you've pointed out, so both ideas get a thumbs up from me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I've suggested this in the past as well. It's one of the top things on the list of new powersets that I'd like to see.
And ignore Samuel's comments about the "powerset for natural characters fallacy". He brings that crap up every single time someone mentions this.
The devs have said before that they like 'low-hanging fruit'--that is, animations and abilities that already exist. That's part of what gave me the idea, as I've listed abilities that already exist for the most part
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You know, I said "ignore it," but if you feel like insulting me with your crass language, then I hope you don't value this thread. What do you hope to achieve with posting crap like this?
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Originally Posted by firespray
And ignore Samuel's comments about the "powerset for natural characters fallacy". He brings that crap up every single time someone mentions this.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Wouldn't a Gun Set be, technically, Technology, rather than Natural?
Just saying.
Allow me to expound. A Sword set or Archery Blast set is all about skill. Same thing with aiming and firing a gun.
But once you get into the idea of lobbing grenades (Sticky, flashbang, etc) it's less about the skill and more about the tech. I'd much rather see a Sword and Pistol secondary for dominators, with a primary of "Sword and Pistol" control... Using psychological tricks and trick-shots (rather than gimmick weapons like Trick Arrows) you control groups. Lots of Fear effects and PBAoE Knockdown and the like... maybe "Covering fire" or "Suppressive Fire" which actually functions as a sleep effect cone with the enemy animation of the batsmashreact emote. Ducking bullets.
-Rachel-
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That's the primary reason I really didn't want to bring it up. It's a complicated question that's subject to interpretation, which nevertheless manges to get me insulted for my efforts. It's also kind of besides the point, since I agree with the powersets, whether or not they are "natural." To argue this point will simply derail the thread into that discussion and drown out the actual suggestions, which are good.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Wouldn't a Gun Set be, technically, Technology, rather than Natural?
Just saying. Allow me to expound. A Sword set or Archery Blast set is all about skill. Same thing with aiming and firing a gun. But once you get into the idea of lobbing grenades (Sticky, flashbang, etc) it's less about the skill and more about the tech. I'd much rather see a Sword and Pistol secondary for dominators, with a primary of "Sword and Pistol" control... Using psychological tricks and trick-shots (rather than gimmick weapons like Trick Arrows) you control groups. Lots of Fear effects and PBAoE Knockdown and the like... maybe "Covering fire" or "Suppressive Fire" which actually functions as a sleep effect cone with the enemy animation of the batsmashreact emote. Ducking bullets. -Rachel- |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Guns? Swords? Technology and metallurgy, I say, technology!|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Wouldn't a Gun Set be, technically, Technology, rather than Natural?
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Seriously?
Technology would be like the PPD Hardsuits as compared to normal SWAT, highly advanced technology and not stuff that's contemporary and available to the common soldier.
Edit: Ah, Sam's got a point.
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You mean like sleeping gas, Glue grenades, EMP, and acidic toxin grenades..?|
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Technology would be like the PPD Hardsuits as compared to normal SWAT, highly advanced technology and not stuff that's contemporary and available to the common soldier.
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It's not so much the method of delivery that makes me think "Tech" as the Gimmicky nature of the payloads. It's just like "Trick Arrow" That's not a "Natural" set, it's a tech set delivered with accuracy and precision of a natural person.
It's a complicated bass-ackward and sidewise situation where Natural overlaps with so many things. Tech, Magic, Science... they all can overlap with natural, Y'know? Even mutant, technically.
-Rachel-
It's gimmicky and put together, yeah, but it's still natural. Almost all of the abilities were taken from a Minion/Lieutenant level PPD or Longbow, which are generally shown as natural.
It's like comparing a Paragon Police Department Officer to a Praetorian Police Department Officer, one shoots at characters with a gun, and the other shoots frickin laser beams outta their hands.
In any case, have any comment on the set itself other than just natural v technology?
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If you wanted it ignored, you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You know, I said "ignore it," but if you feel like insulting me with your crass language, then I hope you don't value this thread. What do you hope to achieve with posting crap like this?
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What I hope to achieve by posting this, is to get you off your high horse and get you to quit mentioning this every freaking time this idea or one like it comes up.
Face facts. Most people know exactly what is meant when someone says a 'natural themed' set. And it's a perfectly acceptable thing to ask for.
I also consider firearms (especially multiple payload delivery system versions) Technology and not natural.
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he probably said it because everyone that says for "natural" AT's is only thinking in the human world. not along the lines of natural origin. which if your toon comes from another planet, what is natural to them may be something totaly different in our world. so i think you are the one that needs to get of the high horse.
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Originally Posted by firespray
If you wanted it ignored, you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.
What I hope to achieve by posting this, is to get you off your high horse and get you to quit mentioning this every freaking time this idea or one like it comes up. Face facts. Most people know exactly what is meant when someone says a 'natural themed' set. And it's a perfectly acceptable thing to ask for. |
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Read the thread, see what it has devolved into, check your facts.|
Originally Posted by firespray
If you wanted it ignored, you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.
What I hope to achieve by posting this, is to get you off your high horse and get you to quit mentioning this every freaking time this idea or one like it comes up. Face facts. Most people know exactly what is meant when someone says a 'natural themed' set. And it's a perfectly acceptable thing to ask for. |
You will not "get me off my high horse" because you are obviously and provably wrong. "Most people" don't know exactly what is meant, because few people agree on exactly what constitutes technology, as you would have noticed had you been able to see past your red mist. "Powers for natural characters" is a fallacy on every conceivable level.
Even if we assume that "natural" refers to "natural human," as opposed to what the game actually defines it as, there is still no clear distinction between where Natural ends and Technology begins. As you can plainly see. What is being suggested here is gadgets, and gadgets, especially things like EMP grenades, are products of the very high levels of modern technology, and some even post-modern technology, as is the case of glue grenades, which to the best of my knowledge don't actually exist. This is the sort of stuff my Technology characters use, and you claim that's for "naturals?" Maybe you want to get your own point straight before you start insulting people.
What is Technology and what is Natural is in the eye of the beholder. Where one might view a Dual Pistols/Devices Blaster as being Natural because he's just a tough guy with decent tools, another might view that as being Technology, because no normal man, however well trained, is able to do these things without sophisticated technology to back him up. Hence, the "powers for natural characters" idea is a fallacy, because it suggest an ultimate, statable truth and definition, which does not exist. It's all a question of interpretation, and discussions about it do not benefit from Internet tough guys like you trying to slam your dick on the table and yell about how obviously true your personal interpretation of events is.
What's actually funny to me, however, is that if your ego hadn't gotten in the way of your post, you wouldn't have derailed the thread into a discussion of what is and is not natural. But apparently you really DIDN'T care about the thread if you insisted on derailing it. So what you were hoping to achieve was to insult me at the expense of what was otherwise a pretty decent thread.
Um, congratulations? Because you win, apparently.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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What facts? This whole thing is a matter of opinion.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Read the thread, see what it has devolved into, check your facts.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You will not "get me off my high horse" because you are obviously and provably wrong.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
"Most people" don't know exactly what is meant, because few people agree on exactly what constitutes technology, as you would have noticed had you been able to see past your red mist.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
"Powers for natural characters" is a fallacy on every conceivable level.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Even if we assume that "natural" refers to "natural human," as opposed to what the game actually defines it as, there is still no clear distinction between where Natural ends and Technology begins. As you can plainly see. What is being suggested here is gadgets, and gadgets, especially things like EMP grenades, are products of the very high levels of modern technology, and some even post-modern technology, as is the case of glue grenades, which to the best of my knowledge don't actually exist. This is the sort of stuff my Technology characters use, and you claim that's for "naturals?" Maybe you want to get your own point straight before you start insulting people.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What is Technology and what is Natural is in the eye of the beholder. Where one might view a Dual Pistols/Devices Blaster as being Natural because he's just a tough guy with decent tools, another might view that as being Technology, because no normal man, however well trained, is able to do these things without sophisticated technology to back him up. Hence, the "powers for natural characters" idea is a fallacy, because it suggest an ultimate, statable truth and definition, which does not exist. It's all a question of interpretation, and discussions about it do not benefit from Internet tough guys like you trying to slam your dick on the table and yell about how obviously true your personal interpretation of events is.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What's actually funny to me, however, is that if your ego hadn't gotten in the way of your post, you wouldn't have derailed the thread into a discussion of what is and is not natural. But apparently you really DIDN'T care about the thread if you insisted on derailing it.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
So what you were hoping to achieve was to insult me at the expense of what was otherwise a pretty decent thread.
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I'm sure as soon as firespray finishes his little rant he can get back on subject, let's just move on while he does though.
I do really like the idea of an assault set that does not depend on a secondary weapon or some sort of cumbersome combo weapon (like a gunsword).
Any of you have any comments to make on the set itself?
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My only worry is that the animations will get incredibly repetitive. Especially with that many grenades being flung around. How about dropping Flashbang for...|
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Any of you have any comments to make on the set itself?
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Covering Fire: Similar animation to full auto, AoE (Cone) Foe hold. Animation for the hold is enemies ducking down in the batsmashreact pose, more or less, while you coat the area in lead.
-Rachel-
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I'm not sure about the new status animation (I've got no clue how easy/difficult it would be for them to do that, I've never seen it done before)|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
My only worry is that the animations will get incredibly repetitive. Especially with that many grenades being flung around. How about dropping Flashbang for...
Covering Fire: Similar animation to full auto, AoE (Cone) Foe hold. Animation for the hold is enemies ducking down in the batsmashreact pose, more or less, while you coat the area in lead. -Rachel- |
And I think you meant replace Tear Gas Grenade
But otherwise, nice idea.
Maybe I could replace Concussion Web Grenade with a new ability that uses Slugs animation, 'Leg Shot'
Also, when I was thinking grenades here, I didn't think the throw animation, but rather the M30 Grenate one--the one that's fired out of the rifle
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I agree on the repetitive animation bit, that would get seriously old very fast with the insane amount of grenades.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
My only worry is that the animations will get incredibly repetitive. Especially with that many grenades being flung around. How about dropping Flashbang for...
Covering Fire: Similar animation to full auto, AoE (Cone) Foe hold. Animation for the hold is enemies ducking down in the batsmashreact pose, more or less, while you coat the area in lead. -Rachel- |
Other than the powerset looking utterly boring to me (I do like the glue grenade though... Equalizers have a special place in hell), I'm seeing very very very little damage in this set. I see nothing above moderate damage, and even then I'm only seeing two powers. That would be fine, except there's not even any compensation towards the controlling aspect of the set.
Instead of a sleep grenade, perhaps something like... just your average grenade.. or an incendiary grenade that explodes on the target and lays down four separate "burn" patches at that targets feet.
The final choice.... do auto turrets move? I've never really noticed. If not, it's a terrible choice for a controller pet in my opinion if it's on the same recharge as other controller pets, and probably weaker at that.
I'm on the fence with this set really... add a bit more damage to account for the sheer power of explosive grenades (My excuse for beefing it up a bit) and it might be worthwhile, otherwise it seems at first glance very underpowered and outperformed control-wise by all the other sets.
Just my two cents.
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Firing every grenade out of the same gun and tossing each grenade would give the same amount of repetitiveness. Less grenades methinks.|
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Also, when I was thinking grenades here, I didn't think the throw animation, but rather the M30 Grenate one--the one that's fired out of the rifle
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Sleep grenade.... axe it into "Sleep spray". Take out <insert appropriate looking object here> and spray a sleep inducing agent in a large cone in front of you.
Beanbag.... axe it into "Stun bomb" Player removes a circular bomb from a pouch at his side, activates it, and rolls it at a targetted enemy. The bomb explodes sending rubber projectiles in a 360 degree radius of x feet, dealing moderate damage and possibly disorienting affected enemies.
Well, I figure why pick a rifle based powerset if your not gonna use the rifle? You don't see any Warmace powers that don't use the warmace, for example.
That said, the big thing is is in that suggestion you're forgetting the 'low hanging fruit' thing I was talking about.
It would require whole new assets, et cetera.
As for your comment on there not being enough attacks that deal damage, there are just as many attacks that deal damage in the Munitions Control set than there are in the Earth Control set, and more than in the Electricity/Gravity/Ice/Mind/Plant set.
As for the damage itself... Plant/Mind/Ice/Fire/Electricity don't go above Moderate, only Gravity and Earth do. I'll likely replace Concussive Web Grenade with Leg Shot or something and make it deal Moderate Lethal damage or something to that effect.
I could replace Beanbag with Taser, I suppose. But mainly, look through what we already have and see if you can either suggest something from there, or a slightly modified version of suck.
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As it stands I'd never personally even think of playing this set. The difference with those sets not having damage is that they have equal control effects to back it up... I'm seeing a lack of both here. |
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Well, I figure why pick a rifle based powerset if your not gonna use the rifle? You don't see any Warmace powers that don't use the warmace, for example.
That said, the big thing is is in that suggestion you're forgetting the 'low hanging fruit' thing I was talking about. It would require whole new assets, et cetera. As for your comment on there not being enough attacks that deal damage, there are just as many attacks that deal damage in the Munitions Control set than there are in the Earth Control set, and more than in the Electricity/Gravity/Ice/Mind/Plant set. As for the damage itself... Plant/Mind/Ice/Fire/Electricity don't go above Moderate, only Gravity and Earth do. I'll likely replace Concussive Web Grenade with Leg Shot or something and make it deal Moderate Lethal damage or something to that effect. I could replace Beanbag with Taser, I suppose. But mainly, look through what we already have and see if you can either suggest something from there, or a slightly modified version of suck. |
I can't really suggest anything else that's already in place that wouldn't feel silly. The whole thing feels forced imo.
Add a little more damage or control to your existing powers and maybe rethink the final pet (Assuming the previous assumption that they cannot move and would be weaker is true) is all I can say then. Just the personal opinion of a nobody
Er, such, not suck. Apologies, it's way too late, and I'm heading off to bed. I'll see if I can think of something tomorrow.
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You know, I actually like your reasoning here. However, if you'll focus on grenades, why use a rifle at all? Now if only there were a weapon which were specifically designed to launch grenades, a "grenade launcher" if you will, that would actually make the set very unique, wouldn't it? |
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Well, I figure why pick a rifle based powerset if your not gonna use the rifle? You don't see any Warmace powers that don't use the warmace, for example.
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Lame humour aside, why not just use the green grenade launcher that 5th Column and Council Grenade soldiers use and have your set be all grenades in a similar way that Trick Arrow is all arrows? It's just a concept, to be sure, but I've always wanted to use a rotary drum grenade launcher for something, and there's one already in the game.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I was thinking earlier--there really isn't any Controller/Dominator Primary for 'Natural' characters outside of maybe psychics. But there are plenty of abilities that offer control through grenades and guns. Plus, it wouldn't be difficult to animate--most if not all of the animations already exist, and some of the powers already exist in other powersets.
Munitions Control:
Not gonna lie, this is mostly grenades. Besides Beanbag, there's not too many pre-existing shooting abilities that work on a Control Powerset.
Tier 1: Leg Shot - Ranged, Moderate DMG(Lethal), Foe: Immobilize, -SPD, -DEF
Name is self-explanatory, you shoot the foe in the leg and that stops for a little bit. It's an idea I had to re-use Slug's animation.
Tier 2: EMP Grenade - Ranged, Moderate DMG(Energy) Foe: Hold, -Regen
Modified variant of the EMP Grenade used by the Longbow Spec Ops, it doesn't normally deal damage.
--OR--
Tier 2: Cryo Freeze Ray - Ranged, Moderate DMG(Cold), Foe Hold
From Munitions Mastery, only more damaging.
Tier 3: Glue Grenade - Ranged (Targeted Area Over Effect), Foe: -Speed, -Recharge
Like the PPD Equalizer's Glue Grenade or Trick Arrows Glue Arrow--doesn't deal damage like other immob AoE's, but this one affects the ground and everything that walks on it, and not just the enemies currently targetted.
Tier 4: Beanbag - Ranged, Minor DMG(Smashing), Foe: Disorient
Like in AR/
--OR--
Tier 4: Taser - Ranged, Minor DMG(Energy), Foe: Disorient
Like in /Devices
Tier 5: Sleep Grenade - Ranged (Targeted AoE), Minor DMG(Smash), Foe Sleep
From Munitions Mastery
Tier 6: Flashbang Grenades - Ranged AoE, Foe: -Accuracy, -Defense, Disorient
From Spec Ops in the Mercs Powerset and PPD Ghosts
Tier 7: Tear Gas Grenade - Ranged AoE, Foe: Hold
From PPD Ghosts
--OR--
Tier 7: Covering Fire - Ranged, Cone, Minor DoT(Lethal), Foe: Hold
Using Heavy Bursts animation, you shoot alot to keep enemies from attacking you for the moment.
Tier 8: Seeker Drones - Summon Seekers, Minor DMG(Energy), Foe Disorient, -DMG, -To-Hit, -Perception
From /Traps
Tier 9: Auto Turret - Build Turret: Ranged, Moderate Damage (Lethal)
From the PPD Equalizers, again. I figured this might be better because it's different than the Gun Drone /Devices already has. I figure this pet could have a lower recharge rate than normal, to make up for it's lack of movement. (I think it has a lack of movement, at least)
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Secondary: Munitions Assault
This is mainly AR/ and Wolf Spider/ abilities
Burst - Ranged, Moderate DoT(Lethal), Foe -DEF
Pummel - Melee, Minor Damage (Smashing), Foe: Disorient
Slug - Ranged, High DMG(Lethal), Foe Knockback
Bayonet - Melee, Moderate Damage over Time (Lethal/Smashing)
Poison Grenade - Ranged (Targeted AoE), Moderate Damage over Time (Toxic), Foe -Resistance
Venom Grenade, pretty much. I figure this in lieu of Build Up or (more likely) Aim would make the secondary stand out more--Venom Grenade, while maybe not making you deal as much damage as Build Up, recharges faster and helps the whole team.
Sniper Rifle - Sniper, Extreme DMG(Lethal), Foe Knockback
Heavy Burst - Ranged (Cone), High Damage over Time (Lethal), Foe: -Defense
M30 Grenade - Ranged (Targeted AoE), Moderate DMG(Lethal/Smash), Foe Knockback
Full Auto - Ranged (Cone), Superior DoT(Lethal), +Special