How are you planning for the siphon speed PBAoE power to work, Small recharge and movement buff per enemy hit? A full siphon speed per enemy would be insane lol
I crashed a cadillac through the gates of hell and returned with a fistfull of dollars.
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Yeah, I was imagining it being broken up into chunks per enemy hit, like the original siphon speed, invulnerability's Invincibility power, etc.
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Originally Posted by The Original Clutch
How are you planning for the siphon speed PBAoE power to work, Small recharge and movement buff per enemy hit? A full siphon speed per enemy would be insane lol
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I love anything AoE, My favorite characters are my Fire/Fire blaster, Spines/fire scrapper, Fire/kin corrupter, and Fire/dark corrupter, so i'd definitely like this set 8-)
I crashed a cadillac through the gates of hell and returned with a fistfull of dollars.
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No. They draw straws to see who gets to kill the pony. |
Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
I'm not totally invested in any one specific point in the list above, so feel free to have at it. I figure it's an interesting conversation to have among us players. And hey, if we like it enough and keep asking, they'd eventually implement it, right?
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Depending on your point of view, it's either fortunate or unfortunate, but the squeaky wheel doesn't always get the oil. Sometimes it gets dismantled.
In some of the cases of they gotta do it because we ask so often are the design blunders like Martial Arts as a secondary for Blaster's. I've gone over the design concepts so many times I am, quite frankly, sick of it. Unless there's a catastrophic head injury to every Paragon Studios employee, Martial Art's is never going to be a Blaster second for the simple reason it does not fit the intended design goals of the Manipulation Power Sets.
The term, Manipulation, is one of the key factors of the Blaster secondary archtype, and your power-set suggestion falls prey to the same problems just about every single Martial Arts as a manipulation set ever suggested falls prey too: Too Much Direct Damage, Not Enough Soft Control.
So, let's sound the ground-work once again.
Energy Manipulation is an aberration among the Blaster Sets. It is not going to be used as a model for any further manipulation sets. It has not been changed into a manipulation set because of the cottage rule.
Fire Manipulation is also an aberration, deliberately trading off an extra single target effect for more AOE effects, and trading off extra soft control for straight damage, exampling the constant PBAOE Blazing Aura. For reference, of the other constant PBAOE blaster manipulation effects, Electicity's Lightning Field drains endurance; Ice Manipulations Chilling Embrace does a slow and damage debuff; and Mental Manipulations World of Confusion has a confuse.
* * *
It has been explicetely stated in the past that the most recent manipulation set, Mental Manipulation, would serve as the model for any future manipulation sets.
So with that in mind, kiss your Tier 1 bai bai.
All Blaster Manipulation Secondaries, aside from Energy Manipulation, have a ranged immobilize as the first attack: Web Grenade, Electric Fence, Ring of Fire, Chilblain, Subdual.
So, first attack: Has to be an immobilize.
Second attack is free to be a straight damage. Body Blow could go here.
Third attack needs to be soft control. So here's where Quick-Strike can go, only it will knockback, no longer a chance for knockback.
Forth Attack needs to be something with a bit of range. So lets bring in Repulsing Torrent, but kick it up to 60 foot range.
Fifth attack will be Build Up. While the precedent is set by the Devices and Energy Manipulation power-sets for a Manipulation set to skip a straight damage boost, that precedent won't really work here. Remember, Power Siphon sort of makes sense in a Melee set since the player is constantly engaging in direct combat. from a mechanical point of view, it won't work in a manipulation set that lacks repeated attacks. So, Straight up Build Up.
6th Attack: The 6th Tier is generally used for mitigation: Cloaking Device, Stun, Lighting Clap, Ice Patch, Drain Psyche. Only in the case of Fire Manipulation does the Tier only do a straight damage, that being Blazing Aura. Kinetic Melee lacks an equivalent effect, as does Kinetics. So, let's mod one of the Kinetics attack. Fulcrum Shifter: Your player expends a field of kinetic energy, drastically lowering the damage capability of your opponents in a PbAOE field, while transferring that damage capability to any nearby team-mates. Player is unaffected.
7th: The seventh power tends to be bit of a unique slot across all blaster manipulation sets. Electic Manipulation makes up some of it's lack of damage with Thunderstrike. Ice gains Shiver. Fire Manip gets Consume, Mental gets World of Confusion, Energy gets power boost. There's no clear direction into the theme of the power, be it mitigation, damage, control, or buff / debuff. Since we are lacking a bit on straight damage, let's borrow a page from Electricity's book and go with a PbAOE. This is where Burst can go.
The 8th tier also lacks a consistent theme across all archtypes. Ice and Mental get some hard control, Fire now gets straight damage with the change to burn, Electric and Energy get self-buffs, and Devices gets time bomb. This is probably a good place to put some soft control for a Kinetic Manipulation. It's late game, but say hello to Siphon Speed
The 9th tier is almost universally an Oh Excrement Tier. This is where you have powers designed explicitly to get players out of melee combat. Mental's Psychic Shockwave stuns and reduces enemy recharge. Ice's Frozen Aura puts everything to sleep. Hot Feet has a high magnitude fear and keeps enemies from flying. Electic's Shocking Grasp has a massive stun as well as an end-drain and a recovery debuff. Total Focus is a high magnitude stun. Of them all, only Gun Drone doesn't quite fit as it's got a significant amount of set-up time compared to all other Manipulation Tier 9's.
Still... neither Kinetic Melee nor Kinetics has a really, oh Excrement, I'm in trouble power. I'm reluctant to take Concentrated Strike because, well, that's what Energy Manipulation did from Energy Melee (tank), and that's often considered to have been a bad design choice. I think something that would work is adding some damage and a chance for knockback to Inertial Reduction, making it player only, and shortening the length of the jump buff. The objective is, activating the Tier 9 pulses a damage AOE not quite as strong as Psychic Shockwave, and with a lower chance for stun, but gives the player an opportunity to bounce out of melee range. I'm not sure what to call this semi-new power... although Inertial Compulsion has a nice ring.
So, a Kinetics set modeled to be a Manipulation Set:
- Tier 1: Ranged Immobilize
- Tier 2: Body Blow
- Tier 3: Quick Strike
- Tier 4: Repulsing Torrent
- Tier 5: Build Up
- Tier 6: Fulcrum Shifter
- Tier 7: Burst
- Tier 8: Siphon Speed
- Tier 9: Inertial Compulsion
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@_o
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Originally Posted by je_saist
SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. HATE HATE HATE HATE it's been a thousand generations since the last time I saw sunlight!!!!!!!!!
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I disagree with what you're saying there, je-saist.
The Blaster secondaries do not need to be patterned along such tight lines. The game is not poorer for the existence of pattern-breakers like Devices or Energy Manipulation but richer.
It's harder to balance because of them, yes, but more fun to play.
I think a Martial Arts themed Blaster secondary would be really well received by the player base, and I have every confidence that our dev team are capable of creating one that isn't hideously out of whack.
Oh, and Inertial Compulsion is a terrible name.
On to your ideas, Doc... 
Cobra Strike as a Tier 1 hard control is too much for a Blaster, even if its just minion level stun at melee range. I think it would need either a less than 100% chance of stunning, a short duration of 4 seconds or so (similar to a knockdown) or just be changed to a knockdown maybe? call it Judo Throw even?
This is the power you can use while mezzed as well, so making it a melee has disadvantages... Hmm...
Burst vs Dragons Tail: Just give it both animations as alternates. Everybody's happy! Come to think of it, being able to choose Kinetic Melee style anims vs Martial Arts anims would be a real bonus across the set.
Power Siphon... Currently no Blaster sets have alternate build ups do they? A PBAoE one like Soul Drain is usually able to reach higher heights at greater risks, and I guess we'd have to consider Soul Drain + Aim + Nuke next to a Tanker or other safety provider to make sure it wasn't too good.
I'm not massivley sold on Power Siphon yet in KM, and it works a lot like a temporary version of Blaster defiance.
This might be a risky move in a set thats breaking a few patterns already.
For the missing Tier 8 - would Caltrops work? Its thematic, and provides safety over more attacks.
Overall, I really like the idea though. Marrying Martial Arts and KM in a blaster secondary would be awesome.
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Citation required.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
It has been explicetely stated in the past that the most recent manipulation set, Mental Manipulation, would serve as the model for any future manipulation sets.
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THE POWER OF INERTIA COMPELS YOU.|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Oh, and Inertial Compulsion is a terrible name.
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Isn't that sort of an oxymoron? I mean, to be inert is the opposite of to be compelled.
Anyway, Dr. Mike--
The reason I suggested a stun for tier 1 is really just variety. Most of the other sets have an immobilize for their tier one, and I didn't see a stun. Is there precedent in other powersets for raising or lowering the duration of a stun, hold, etc, to bring the power into balance with others within an AT?
Also, despite being totally absurd and obnoxious, je saist did make a decent point about the tier 9 power; it doesn't necessarily need to be a big whopping melee attack. I guess I'm just partial to Energy Manipulation. It is sort of the go-to blapper set, right?
I'll post a revised list sometime tonight or tomorrow.
I don't really see Mental Manipulation as being all that well constructed a set. It was based on Dominator Psionic Assault, which was itself based on Psychic Blast, and still had an extraordinarily powerful Psychic Shockwave. The Blaster version is simply a pre-nerfed nerf of it. And the cone attack was removed from Psychic Blast, to allow room for Aim.
The truth is, the only non-Location ranged attacks in Blaster Secondaries are Taser, Shiver, Psychic Scream and Scare, and of course the Immobilizes. Shiver and Scare don't do any damage, and Taser's damage is only minor. And even the control powers like Frozen Aura and Lightning Clap are mostly PBAoE. The Secondary is primarily usable only in melee range, with Devices as the only real exception.
With that in mind, I don't see the problem. The attacks can be collected from Martial Arts, while the control powers could be cobbled together from Devices, Trick Arrow (changed to grenades or powders) and Ninjitsu. Not the buffs or debuffs, but control powers.
Alternately, if you want to go with Kinetic and call it chi energy, then maybe some of the lifting/throwing powers from Gravity would be a better fit than Kinetics' buffs and debuffs. Or Energy Aura's Repulse. (that gets back to Kinetic)
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One thing I note about the tier 9 power is that when it is not a big whopping attack, it's usually a big whopping control power, with pretty good damage as well. And when it's not, the tier 8 is. (Freezing Touch) And Eagle's Claw is not that great a power. It has good control, and good damage, but a very long animation time. |
Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
Also, despite being totally absurd and obnoxious, je saist did make a decent point about the tier 9 power; it doesn't necessarily need to be a big whopping melee attack. I guess I'm just partial to Energy Manipulation. It is sort of the go-to blapper set, right?
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Cobra Strike, now, is a much better attack, although for the purposes of a Blaster Manipulation set, I would have to say Cobra Strike should be put back to its original damage and chance of stun. It was exactly equal to Taser and Stun, so while it may not be proper for a Tier 1, it should be just fine by Tier 3. (And Taser's even ranged)
Here's sort of a general question about this, from a non-blaster-main to you more blaster-oriented people.
What would be better received, MA married with Kinetics as above or:
Ninjitsu + Martial Arts (for one set, and)
Kinetic Manipulation (for another)?
The reason I initially thought MA + Kinetics would be cool is that it gives Martial Arts a bit of HADOUKEN.
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I'd rather have them as two different sets, but that is because I'd rather have two new options. I can definitely see melding MA and KM into one blaster secondary, but it would make me sad that we could have had two cool manipulations, but instead got one.
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
Here's sort of a general question about this, from a non-blaster-main to you more blaster-oriented people.
What would be better received, MA married with Kinetics as above or: Ninjitsu + Martial Arts (for one set, and) Kinetic Manipulation (for another)? The reason I initially thought MA + Kinetics would be cool is that it gives Martial Arts a bit of HADOUKEN. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Now you mention it, a single target Mag 3 melee stun probably isn't too much at all. Devices get a ranged one with Taser at level 4. Yeah, Cobra Strike as Tier 1 would work, wouldn't it?|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
THE POWER OF INERTIA COMPELS YOU.
Isn't that sort of an oxymoron? I mean, to be inert is the opposite of to be compelled. Anyway, Dr. Mike-- The reason I suggested a stun for tier 1 is really just variety. Most of the other sets have an immobilize for their tier one, and I didn't see a stun. Is there precedent in other powersets for raising or lowering the duration of a stun, hold, etc, to bring the power into balance with others within an AT? Also, despite being totally absurd and obnoxious, je saist did make a decent point about the tier 9 power; it doesn't necessarily need to be a big whopping melee attack. I guess I'm just partial to Energy Manipulation. It is sort of the go-to blapper set, right? I'll post a revised list sometime tonight or tomorrow. |
And my vote would go for a single manipulation set with alternate animations, let the player choose per attack if they want kicky Martial Arts of mystic Tai Chi.
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The problem with doing that is the animation times are different for Burst and Dragon's Tail (for instance). Which means the powers would be more or less powerful based on animation choice, rather than it just being an aesthetic choice.|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Now you mention it, a single target Mag 3 melee stun probably isn't too much at all. Devices get a ranged one with Taser at level 4. Yeah, Cobra Strike as Tier 1 would work, wouldn't it?
And my vote would go for a single manipulation set with alternate animations, let the player choose per attack if they want kicky Martial Arts of mystic Tai Chi. |
Honestly, I think animation times should be standardized. Has there ever been any talk of doing that?
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Yes, there has been talk. I am going to go out on a limb and say that only Blast sets tier 1 and tier 2 powers will ever be truly standard. As much as I have complained about animation times, it is unnecessary and likely too restrictive on the animators to insist that the animation times be exact. Based on some comments Castle has made regarding Repulsing Torrent, they do have guidelines for animation times and ranges of acceptable. My experience in game tells me their ranges work fine and that sometimes we gripe over nothing (although I still weep frequently when I activate Fire Sword Circle on my blaster).
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
Honestly, I think animation times should be standardized. Has there ever been any talk of doing that?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
That ******* Maelstrom crane kicked me! I demand retribution!
That is all.
RaikenX is currently seeking new quotes to add to his signature.
Someone say something funny.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny. |
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Yeah, I don't think they're ever going to standardize it, as that would make all the sets too similar. I actually think that's a good thing. Another poster on the Victory forum mentioned that CoX has way more powerset combinations than a certain other huge MMO (a few thousand compared to a few hundred) and that's great. I think a time range is a much better design setup, as you don't want to forget how other powers are set up completely.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Yes, there has been talk. I am going to go out on a limb and say that only Blast sets tier 1 and tier 2 powers will ever be truly standard. As much as I have complained about animation times, it is unnecessary and likely too restrictive on the animators to insist that the animation times be exact. Based on some comments Castle has made regarding Repulsing Torrent, they do have guidelines for animation times and ranges of acceptable. My experience in game tells me their ranges work fine and that sometimes we gripe over nothing (although I still weep frequently when I activate Fire Sword Circle on my blaster).
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Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Originally Posted by je_saist
6th Attack: Player is unaffected.
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Blasters are for dealing damage and giving themselves buffs which assist in their damage output. Themselves not dying is a part of that, where soft control keeping baddies away is important. I'm not sure this would work or be any use if it did work. I've never seen a blaster set that had a NON-SELF buff of any kind. I like to solo with my blaster a lot. There are controllers and defenders for team buffs. If this also affected the user I would say "Sure, give the team a buff." But not like this.
I was reading another thread in here about Martial Arts themed secondaries for blasters, and decided to put my razor-sharp intellect to use developing a pretend powerset.
1. Cobra Strike (ST soft control)
for ST soft control, probably in the form it used to be in before they gave Martial Arts some love.
2. Body Blow (ST moderate damage)
I'm willing to be shouted down on this one in favor of an attack straight from the martial arts set, but I think realistically things having more to do with the Kinetics craze are more likely to be implemented.
3. Power Siphon (Damage boost)
Another option for this would be Focus Chi, which would be martial artsy, but I think Power Siphon is more interesting, and the -Damage to enemies gives it some added utility.
4. Crane Kick (ST High Damage)
Boom. High damage with guaranteed knockback.
5. Burst (PBAOE Damage)
I would also love Dragon's Tail here, but I'm A) trying to alternate between kinetic powers and martial arts powers, and B) Burst seems more blastery. I'm not married to it, though.
6. Siphon Speed (utility)
This would beas speed siphon from the kinetics set, but function as a PBAOE, much like how Power Siphon is just Siphon Power (from kinetics) reimagined as a PBAOE. I'm not really sure about this one; it's setting of a "might be overpowered" alarm in the back of my head.
7. Energy Drain (utility)
Per the Energy aura power of the same name. It's possible I've gone a little PBAOE crazy here, but this is meant as an in-your-face-suckah powerset.
8. ?
Help me out here.
9. Eagle's Claw
KAPOW. /EM blasters aren't the only ones who can beat you upside the head! I pity the foo'. Concentrated Strike could also work here. I guess.
I'm not totally invested in any one specific point in the list above, so feel free to have at it. I figure it's an interesting conversation to have among us players. And hey, if we like it enough and keep asking, they'd eventually implement it, right?
Right?