Want to make a Demon MM, but can't decide on a secondary
I went with /Dark on my demons MM. She's only level 28 so far with a cheap IO set build but she can easily do +2 difficulty solo.
I have fallen in love with the debuffs /Dark brings as well as the massive heal.
For the love of your own sanity, unless you like buffing your pets and possibly your teammates every 4 minutes, avoid FF or Thermal. I say this as a 50 Robot/FF MM.
But between the two, if you have to choose, go Thermal, it has more to offer except status protection (go FF if you want to tankermind).
Otherwise my first reccommendation would be Dark or perhaps Pain. I hear Storm is good, but depends on how well you manage KB on teams.
53 Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind | 53 NRG/FF/Electricity Defender | 50 Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender | 50 Demons/FF/Mace Mastermind | 51 Necro/Dark/Soul Mastermind | 50 Thugs/Time/Mace Mastermind | 50 Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker | 50 Plant/Rad/Earth Controller | 50 Illusion/Trick Arrow Controller | 50 Gravity/Force Field Controller
Yes, I like Force Fields.
Quick Rundown of the secondaries:
Dark - Excellent source of controls and debuffs. Includes its own pet (uncontrollable) that acts as its own Dark Miasma wielder. The downside to the set is that several powers were nerfed on the Mastermind version, so if you are used to the Defender or Corruptor versions, you are in for several nasty shocks. Healing your pets may also be an issue - fortunantly, the Ember Demon is good for helping out with that.
Force Fields - Good for +Def and knocking things around. It also provides mez protection in the Dispersion Bubble. The down side is in constantly reapplying the buffs, and that... it has nothing else. Defense and Knockback, and that's it. Good for tanking, not so much for anything else.
Pain Domination - Excellent source of healing, with some powerful buffs as well. It also provides a single PBAoE debuff, that you will be using a lot. Downsides are that it is a very reactive set, and one that, in my experience, means you have to concentrait more on keeping your pets alive than buffing or debuffing. (Or using the attacks, on a Demon Summoner) That may just be me, though.
Poison - Excellent source of Single Target debuffs. Not so good at AoE debuffs. This is an absolute killer on the single hard targets, but you don't have many options when faced with large groups of enemies.
Storm Summoning - Nice selection of debuffs and some ally buffs as well. Doesn't mesh as well as Dark, but not bad at all. However, it is very easy to screw things up with one if its keay powers (Hurricane), so you need to learn how to use it well before trying to team with it...
Thermal Radiation - Well Balanced set that provides a bit of everything. The Shields will help you a lot but you've got to keep reapplying them every 4 minutes. The only other drawback is that its debuffs only come very late. Still, if you can stand the buffing chore, then Thermal is an excellent set.
Traps - An excellent set that revolves around using other devises to provide buffs or debuffs. The only drawback here is how long it can take to set some traps up, and the lack of a direct heal. Still, this is an excellent set to accompany any primary.
Trick Arrow - Various tricks delivered at range by a pointy stick. Very action oriented set, as you've end up constantly debuffing. Also, the set again lacks a heal, and has a power that tends to play havok with your pets' AI. I've seen the set played well, but in general, there are better sets to use...
All this is just my own opinion, of course.
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Kinda sounds like Dark is a good all around secondary for Demons. I think I would rather be debuffing for my minions, it at least feels like I'm actually attacking.
One thing to keep in mind is Demons have Resists, cept the prince who has some Resist and some Def. And the LT gives Resist to all. So Pain and Thermal both combo well because they give some resist to stack with the demons. Thermal gives more to the pets, but doesn't provide any buff for you, plus you have to bubble, and that's annoying to me. That was what decided me on Pain. Pain doesn't have much in the way of debuffing, except anguishing cry, but world of pain stacked with the Resist aura procs, and the demon's base resist, plus the aura from the LT, and my pets on my Demon/pain generally have around 70% resists, more for fire, less for cold. And for the summoner herself, World of pain plus demon aura gives around 30% or so. At high levels if you want to work on that more, you could pick up one of the Res shields, not sure if it's worth it or not though, just depends on what you want.
I also have a Demon/dark, and dark is really great. The only issue I have with Demon/dark is the heal is small enough that it can be a pain to keep the demons healed sometimes, they run around a lot.
I went Storm, and love it. Works great with demons, and Demons/Storm is definitely the flashiest Mastermind around.
Thanks for the great info, you've given me a lot to think about today while I'm at work when I'm supposed to be working .
One thing about Storm, people keep saying that you need to learn how to us it to be good with it. What do they mean by this? Nobody has been specific (at least what I've seen).
Despite what you might think don't expect the dark heal to be of much use. The first time I rolled my demon I tried Dark but the demons are so spread out and move so fast trying to get one within the Dark heals very poor radius is very difficult.
Thanks for the great info, you've given me a lot to think about today while I'm at work when I'm supposed to be working .
One thing about Storm, people keep saying that you need to learn how to us it to be good with it. What do they mean by this? Nobody has been specific (at least what I've seen). |
Things like hovering above enemies and using Gale from straight above to turn the knockback into knockdown, using Hurricane & TP to TP behind a spawn (without aggroing a second spawn) and pushing them back towards your demons and the Freezing Rain kill zone, using O2 Boost on any alpha takers who are getting hit by Sapping attacks and combining the -knockback from Electric Fences with Tornado are all excellent ways to leverage Storms strengths without too much scatter or driving the meleers insane.
Storm is excellent, but it uses a lot of knockback in its powers. So don't be the guy who spams Gale to send things flying into another spawn while your minions chase after it and thus aggro the second spawn, learn to use Hurricane to edge-herd enemies into a kill zone (generally where Freezing Rain is doing its thing) rather than running blindly into the middle of the spawn and sending them flying and know when and where to drop Tornado so it works as a Stun and damage power without scattering things to the 4 winds (in small confined spaces it is gold).
Things like hovering above enemies and using Gale from straight above to turn the knockback into knockdown, using Hurricane & TP to TP behind a spawn (without aggroing a second spawn) and pushing them back towards your demons and the Freezing Rain kill zone, using O2 Boost on any alpha takers who are getting hit by Sapping attacks and combining the -knockback from Electric Fences with Tornado are all excellent ways to leverage Storms strengths without too much scatter or driving the meleers insane. |
Thanks again for the help/advice.
I went with Storm and it's a huge pile of fun so far.
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Kinda sounds like Dark is a good all around secondary for Demons. I think I would rather be debuffing for my minions, it at least feels like I'm actually attacking.
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(As for secondary, /Dark is great.)
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
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Now that you have it down to Dark or Storm, let me be the first to say that you can't really go wrong with either. Sitting here thinking about it, both sets have their strengths and few weaknesses. Having said that, I'll put my vote in the Storm column.
In my opinion, one of the knocks against MMs is the repetitive nature of the gameplay, where at each spawn you're doing almost the exact same thing every time.
What Storm offers that many other sets don't is versatility. You can approach each encounter with a mixed bag of tricks that are each as effective as the last. A rundown on the set...
Gale - Doesn't get much love on the forums because it's often misused. Put simply, it's a decent mitigator and soft control in the early game, with decent situation value later in the game. As a solo MM, it has added value early as a one-click "Get Away From Me!" power as your pets focus on killing other mobs.
O2 Boost - Run of the mill single-target heal. Once you get a couple slots with SOs, it'll heal an almost-dead demonling in one shot. Not a big heal, but quick enough to keep stuff alive most of the time.
Snow Storm - For all the talk about Freezing Rain, Snow Storm has the most real utility because it's a toggle that's up for every fight and its effect is 100% predictable. The slow is nice for keeping things away from you, but the -50% recharge is what'll have you fighting large spawns before you even hit level 10. Used in tandem with Freezing Rain you can drop any spawn in the game with little effort. Easily one of the most underrated powers in the game.
Steamy Mist - Its utility depends on your playstyle and how you're managing your endurance. You won't be ghosting much as a MM, so the point of this power for you is the +RES. If you find you want the RES boost and can afford the endurance hit, it's a great power. If not, it's easily skipped.
Freezing Rain - The only knock against this wonderful power is that since you'll be playing missions with large spawns (you'll want to set your difficulty to treat you as at least 2 players after you take Snow Storm), you'll wish it lasted longer. That said, once you have it slotted, it'll be up as soon as it wears off anyway. Excellent mitigator and debuff, arguably the best power in the set overall, if still a bit overrated.
Hurricane - As any other AT, Hurricane has only situational value. As an MM, if you like Hurricane and learn to use it well, you can get a ton of use from it. I wouldn't go as far as to say it'll be on all the time, but it certainly could be if you enjoy it. It basically gives you control over where your foes stand (and IF they stand in many cases) and provides a superb ToHit debuff. All good news, but tricky to use.
Thunder Clap - Another underrated power, so much so that I'll give you both sides of the argument. The down side is that it's only a Mag 2 disorient, so it only has a one-shot effect on minions and LTs. Many also dislike that disoriented foes wander and scatter. It also needs slotting (particularly ACC) to be reliable.
The up side? It's a long-duration disorient (30 seconds, slotted). This is a great "Oh $#!&!" power that can be used as a hard control on everything but bosses, like any other mass hold EXCEPT that it recharges in 45 seconds instead of several minutes. This is one of those powers that provides the aforementioned versatility. Certainly not an "every spawn" power, but an excellent utility power worth taking and slotting a bit. Cool animation, too.
Tornado - This is the one I never developed a taste for because it's SUPER situational. It's a love-it-or-hate-it power, so my advice is if you're curious about it, copy your MM over to Test when you hit 28 and take it for a spin. It can be a blast to use, but its actualy utility is questionable at best, especially on teams.
Lightning Storm - Nothing wrong with a little extra damage. It scatters a little and requires slots to fully appreciate, but it's another solid performer to add to a versatile bag of tricks.
Again, it's a versatile set and extremely powerful for a solo MM. In teams, there's a couple powers that you just need to be careful with or not use.
Personally, playing a mastermind, I don't think there's a better crowd-killing secondary. I have a Demon/Storm at 23 now set to x3 and he breezes through missions. I took him hero-side and went directly to Dark Astoria, killing large hazard zone spawns dropping nothing but magic loot. Fun, fast-paced, and versatile.
The only tedious thing about it is being careful not to kill your Snow Storm anchor.
Global @Watchdog
Actually, Mag 2 will only hit minions, LTs are 3 bosses are 4.
Tornado - This is the one I never developed a taste for because it's SUPER situational. It's a love-it-or-hate-it power, so my advice is if you're curious about it, copy your MM over to Test when you hit 28 and take it for a spin. It can be a blast to use, but its actualy utility is questionable at best, especially on teams. |
In other aspects of a */storm mastermind, I highly recommend TP for combat tp's to position for gale, hurricane, thunderclap, or lightning storm in an instant.
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HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
I don't think freezing rain is underrated, it's one of the best ways to boost your damage. -res and -def, both with pretty big bonuses. On top of that it does knockdown, slow and -recharge. A lesser debuff lasts for 15s after it ends or a mob leaves the area, and after slotting it's up about when it wears off. It's the star of the set in my opinion.
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I'm not quite sure what goes well with the demons so if anyone that has played with this primary can help me, I would appreciate it. Most of my time will be spent solo, or with my friend (occasionally on bigger team, but rare). Was looking at Thermal, but FF also seemed interesting. Any help would be fantastic.
Thanks in advance.