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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Wow, it's a good thing you didn't play the game 5 years ago. You would have ragequit during the first week if you think it takes a long time to get anywhere now.
Used to be a contact would send you from Talos Island to Atlas Park, and you'd have to go from Atlas Park all the way back to Talos to get the next mission, which was in Kings Row. And you had to run back to that contact every time you wanted to turn a mission in, because they wouldn't give out their number until you'd ran half the arc, as opposed to 2-3 missions into it like now. Oh, and there were no such things as temp jetpacks, or jump packs, or Ninja Run at level 4. There weren't Ouroboros portals. If you were under level 14 and weren't Kinetics or a Kheldian, it was Sprint or nothing. Players now have it EASY compared to how it used to be. And you're complaining that 3-5 minutes is too long to spend traveling to a mission. They have done so many things to make things easier to get around in this game, and people are asking to be able to teleport directly to every single mission. Tell me, if you could teleport to every mission you ever get, what is the point of there even being anything outside at all? You could make the entire game consist of a single door next to Wentworth's and a single contact that gives you all your missions, and the players who whine that 3 minutes is too long to travel will be perfectly happy. Oh, wait, they already did that, it's called AE. Can I ask one more question? How long did you play for before you knew how to get to Kings Row? |
Yeah this pretty much sums up the impression I got from reading his responses.
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I started playing in June of 2005, and things have improved a lot since then, I have a faster connection, faster PC and the game it'self seems to be a bit more streamlined when it comes to screen changes. I have not play continuously, I have let the subscription lapse a few times for financial reasons but I have always returned. I love this game, but that doesn't mean I don't think it couldn't be better. There has yet to be an update I haven't liked, and since there are updates, it is obvious the developers think it can be better too. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Wow, it's a good thing you didn't play the game 5 years ago. You would have ragequit during the first week if you think it takes a long time to get anywhere now.
Used to be a contact would send you from Talos Island to Atlas Park, and you'd have to go from Atlas Park all the way back to Talos to get the next mission, which was in Kings Row. And you had to run back to that contact every time you wanted to turn a mission in, because they wouldn't give out their number until you'd ran half the arc, as opposed to 2-3 missions into it like now. Oh, and there were no such things as temp jetpacks, or jump packs, or Ninja Run at level 4. There weren't Ouroboros portals. If you were under level 14 and weren't Kinetics or a Kheldian, it was Sprint or nothing. Players now have it EASY compared to how it used to be. And you're complaining that 3-5 minutes is too long to spend traveling to a mission. They have done so many things to make things easier to get around in this game, and people are asking to be able to teleport directly to every single mission. Tell me, if you could teleport to every mission you ever get, what is the point of there even being anything outside at all? You could make the entire game consist of a single door next to Wentworth's and a single contact that gives you all your missions, and the players who whine that 3 minutes is too long to travel will be perfectly happy. Oh, wait, they already did that, it's called AE. Can I ask one more question? How long did you play for before you knew how to get to Kings Row? |
You imply that I would somehow eliminate the need for zones at all but thats not the way I feel. I often enjoy exploring the zones and hunting randomly for XP, it can be a lot of fun, but when it comes to doing missions and mission arcs I see no reason why a faster travel power could not be available at higher levels.
As for Kings Row? Truthfully it was a long time before I got a toon to K.R. and then it was using the SG base teleporter on a team mission. None of my early missions took me there and I had no contacts for a long time.
We could use more travel powers, but then again they could add other Animations as well to the one's we got now, there for making the old travel powers look new. I think of many travel power to be use in this game any way can you?
Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.
Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus
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The way you feel has very little relevance to the end effect of allowing teleportation to every single mission. |
Originally Posted by Remaugen
You imply that I would somehow eliminate the need for zones at all but thats not the way I feel. I often enjoy exploring the zones and hunting randomly for XP, it can be a lot of fun, but when it comes to doing missions and mission arcs I see no reason why a faster travel power could not be available at higher levels. |
You KNOW there are zones to explore, and you do explore them because you choose to do so.
What is a new player going to think when they start teleporting everywhere? They're going to think along the lines of "Well, since I don't have to actually walk/run/fly/jump anywhere to get to the next mission, there must not be anything between here and there. Why would they let us just teleport here if there was something to see?"
Especially if they are coming from another MMO where there ARE huge expanses of empty land.
You and I, and others, got to explore the game, largely because we had very little choice in the early days. If you take away any reason to travel through a zone, you take away a lot of the incentive to do so with it. They just added more exploration badges and started awarding reward merits for finding all of the ones in a given zone, I presume because the devs are aware that the majority of their playerbase won't do ANYTHING unless there is a tangible reward for it. And they're probably going to download the vidiotmaps overlay and just follow it to the icons rather than actually do any exploring.
Allowing teleportation to every mission will do nothing more than make the players lazier and lazier. If it happens, pretty soon you'll see people complaining that they have to walk to the objective inside the mission, and asking for a way to teleport directly to it as well.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I still do a lot of solo hunting so exploration is still fun. Praetoria was fun to explore, but with just three zones it doesn't take long to cover, still exploring the underground there. It took a long time to figure out how to get in to the prison/correctional facility place and even longer to figure out how to get out without dying and going to the hospital.
But I do still see a need for expanding the travel powers at higher levels, Map Travel and Zone Travel would help accomplish that in my opinion. Nobody would be required to take or use these travel powers, so it is not as if you are being forced to do anything. I am confused though as to why you would be concerned that someone doesn't explore the zones. We already have a good many toons in the game that PL to 50 at AE without ever visiting any zones so it's not as if expanded travel powers will make things any worse.
I guess we just have to disagree at this point because I really cannot see the point of your arguments.
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And before anyone dismisses what Claws has said here, we have already seen this happen with new players just after the AE went live. Heck I even encountered a level 40 something Warshade that never learned what enhancements were or how to slot them. His Vet rewards showed he'd been playing fr 6 months and I ended up answering a ton of questions while showing him how to use the train and took him on a tour of other zones. Up until then his world was sitting in the Atlas AE building. I helped him unlock the store for his contact in Founders Falls so he could start buying enhancements.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The way you feel has very little relevance to the end effect of allowing teleportation to every single mission.
You KNOW there are zones to explore, and you do explore them because you choose to do so. What is a new player going to think when they start teleporting everywhere? They're going to think along the lines of "Well, since I don't have to actually walk/run/fly/jump anywhere to get to the next mission, there must not be anything between here and there. Why would they let us just teleport here if there was something to see?" Especially if they are coming from another MMO where there ARE huge expanses of empty land. You and I, and others, got to explore the game, largely because we had very little choice in the early days. If you take away any reason to travel through a zone, you take away a lot of the incentive to do so with it. They just added more exploration badges and started awarding reward merits for finding all of the ones in a given zone, I presume because the devs are aware that the majority of their playerbase won't do ANYTHING unless there is a tangible reward for it. And they're probably going to download the vidiotmaps overlay and just follow it to the icons rather than actually do any exploring. Allowing teleportation to every mission will do nothing more than make the players lazier and lazier. If it happens, pretty soon you'll see people complaining that they have to walk to the objective inside the mission, and asking for a way to teleport directly to it as well. |
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Originally Posted by Remaugen
I am confused though as to why you would be concerned that someone doesn't explore the zones. We already have a good many toons in the game that PL to 50 at AE without ever visiting any zones so it's not as if expanded travel powers will make things any worse.
I guess we just have to disagree at this point because I really cannot see the point of your arguments. |
Do you have any idea how many people quit the game because they bought the Architect Edition and got bored because they thought the game consisted only of Atlas Park/Mercy Island and the AE building?
They actually thought there was nothing else.
It's human nature for people to take the path of least resistance, and the devs have to be careful not to make the game too easy because people will get bored of it and leave.
We aren't against new travel powers we just want balanced ones that won't end up harming the game.
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Exactly this. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Do you have any idea how many people quit the game because they bought the Architect Edition and got bored because they thought the game consisted only of Atlas Park/Mercy Island and the AE building?
They actually thought there was nothing else. It's human nature for people to take the path of least resistance, and the devs have to be careful not to make the game too easy because people will get bored of it and leave. We aren't against new travel powers we just want balanced ones that won't end up harming the game. |
Thank you, Forbin, for understanding what I was saying.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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NP. I understand why Remaugen would want powers like the ones he's suggested, Heck I'd use them myself, but I'm willing to admit that if I had them back when I started I probably wouldn't be here today. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Exactly this.
Thank you, Forbin, for understanding what I was saying. |
Being "forced" to travel and explore the zones was what caught my imagination, and continues to keep me interested. Jumping straight from door to door would have gotten old real fast.
SUPER BOOSTER PACK: VEHICLES! $19.99
A new 5 tier pool power available to all characters on account beginning at level 6!
Consists of 5 vehicle categories: mounts, cycles, diggers, flitters, and flyers. Mounts are slow runners but good jumpers, cycles are fast runners but poor jumpers, diggers are slow teleporters but low on endurance useage, flitters are slow flyers but maneuverable, and flyers are fast but not very maneuverable.
CATEGORY DEFAULT SCIENCE VARIANT FANTASY VARIANT
Mount Horse Nemesis Robotic Riding Beast Zombie Horse
Cycle Motorcycle Council Bicycle Tsoo Rickshaw
Digger Jackhammer Clockwork Tunneler Cabal Giant Mole
Flitter Giant Bird Malta Gyrocopter Flying Carpet
Flyer Flying car Rikti flying saucer Circle of Thorns Dragon
Other vehicles may be added as veteran rewards, recipes, and unlockable content. One would need one vehicle from tier 1 or 2 to advance to a vehicle from 3 or 4 at level 14, and flyers would only be available at level 20 with at least one vehicle from 3 or 4. There is word that the developers are looking at vehicles for us as an option, but because it is going to require major game engine modifications it may be a while. I don't know what it would look like but this is an example of how it might be done.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill |
Originally Posted by davidzenyugen
SUPER BOOSTER PACK: VEHICLES! $19.99
A new 5 tier pool power available to all characters on account beginning at level 6! Consists of 5 vehicle categories: mounts, cycles, diggers, flitters, and flyers. Mounts are slow runners but good jumpers, cycles are fast runners but poor jumpers, diggers are slow teleporters but low on endurance useage, flitters are slow flyers but maneuverable, and flyers are fast but not very maneuverable. CATEGORY DEFAULT SCIENCE VARIANT FANTASY VARIANT Mount Horse Nemesis Robotic Riding Beast Zombie Horse Cycle Motorcycle Council Bicycle Tsoo Rickshaw Digger Jackhammer Clockwork Tunneler Cabal Giant Mole Flitter Giant Bird Malta Gyrocopter Flying Carpet Flyer Flying car Rikti flying saucer Circle of Thorns Dragon Other vehicles may be added as veteran rewards, recipes, and unlockable content. One would need one vehicle from tier 1 or 2 to advance to a vehicle from 3 or 4 at level 14, and flyers would only be available at level 20 with at least one vehicle from 3 or 4. There is word that the developers are looking at vehicles for us as an option, but because it is going to require major game engine modifications it may be a while. I don't know what it would look like but this is an example of how it might be done. |
Vehicles as travel powers. This gets brought up a lot.
Short answer, don't expect it.
Long answer:
There are a lot of problems with the idea.
1. Movement.
Forward and back,even turning - ok. But you can do things that a vehicle can't - such as strafe (direct side to side or angular movement.) It doesn't work with a vehicle. There are also issues such as drift and "realistic" handling. We can go side to side, as mentioned, and make immediate right angle turns. Cars... not so much.
2. Movement, part 2.
Go stand in the road. No, not you personally. Take your character out and stand in the road, if you're heroside. Or even in the path of civilians. What happens? You get pushed. While not as big an issue with a motorcycle, perhaps, a car would have issues. What happens if two cars meet head on - yours and an NPC, or yours and another player's? Do you just pass through each other? Would you be satisfied with that very odd result? Or would you get stuck? How about those NPCs, can they walk and push your car, or are they walking through it? Neither answer is very satisfying, and intelligent, dynamic pathing is too computationally expensive.
3. Terrain.
Not every place has roads, or even makes sense for "off roading." Go look at Founder's Falls. Go look at Crey's Folley. Or Eden. Try to get to the north islands in Talos. What, do you have a kubelwagen? Look at the Pit in Sharkshead. Try to use your travel power (car) to get up to some of the doorways in high caves. Cars and motorcycles would be more like Superspeed - horizontal movement, period. And look - I'll be blunt - flat out *stupid* tied with, say, Combat Jumping or Superjump.
4. Combat.
You get ambushed on the way. How do you fight? Just have your powers blast out of the rolled up windows? How do you buff or debuff? EVERY power would need a new animation. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Then you want people with motorcycles instead of cars. Redo ALL the animations AGAIN. And they still wouldn't make sense - how do you use Footstomp in a car? Or Stalagmites?
5. Customizing.
Yeah, it would come up. Not everyone would want a sports car, or a mid-70s Buick boat, or an exotic, or a minivan, or whatever else.
6. Making "sense."
This was touched on in terrain - how do you get across water? How about the Shadow Shard? And if you want downright ridiculous looking, go do the heroside 25-34 Respec. Look at the Sky Skiffs inside of rooms or the reactor room. It makes no sense and looks *ridiculous.* Something that, yes, the devs try to avoid.
That's just a quick overview of why vehicles as generally envisioned aren't a spectacular idea for a travel power.
Further discussion
This I think merits a bit of extra commentary, honestly.
"Vehicles" covers a lot of different ground for different people. Some only consider cars/jets/motorcycles vehicles. Others add jetpacks, wings and the like. Much of the above considers cars and similar sized vehicles, with nods to motorcycle type vehicles.
Jetpacks and such, I don't see happening as travel powers. As costume options for Flight? Or as invented pieces that interact with Fly, similar to wings? Absolutely - but they don't need to be a separate travel power for that. I'm all for more jetpack and wing (or combination) designs. Besides, there are so many "temp" jetpacks, I don't see introducing yet another one as really being feasable - just my opinion.
But vehicles - cars, specifically - as a travel power, have issues.
One way to have them "somewhat" work.
For all that, I know some people *would* still like to pull up in front of a mission. So how do we do it?
A temporary power, based on the same tech from the Mac/Valkyrie pack Mission Teleporter. The temporary power would:
(a) be an invention - dropping from enemies. (A reward, because you saved... well, we'll get to that,)
(b) be a single use each time - you can only hold one at a time, not one of each, one total.
(c) use rarely used salvage, because... it's rarely used, and cheap. No Luck Charms here.
(d) come in multiple varieties.
How does this get around the various issues?
Terrain - It doesn't pass terrain. It just arrives.
It follows the same 'rules' as the mission teleporter - it's not indoors, doesn't go to contacts, etc. Just mission doors.
Customizing - It's not "your" vehicle. It's a temp power. You've called a cab, limo, or other transport.
Power animation - since you're skipping the space in between, no powers can be used 'til you arrive anyway.
The varieties?
- Limo: Stereotypical slightly stretched black limo.
- Checker cab: The classic yellow cab.
Unfortunately, I was starting to hope for a "Nemesis Robotic Zombie Horse". That's one dead cyber-equine that can be beaten again and again, much like this topic.
I have heard that the developers have seen so much fervour from the players about vehicles that they are definitely considering it, despite the extreme technical difficulties. They are delaying for that reason, but it is expected. The level of excitement by the fan base is pretty high about this topic, which is a good sign; since NCSOFT does seem to listen to its fan base. I think the technical challenges might only whet their programmers' appetites, cause they like to show off. I must admit I don't expect vehicles to be introduced with issue 19 or anything, but I suspect in the coming years it is inevitable now. The real question is how will it work for the players, and what vehicles have the most popularity so they are certain to be included. This thread was about new travel powers, so I thought a discussion of what might be under consideration had to include this exciting possibility. The more it's discussed, the more the developers will be listening. Will we actually see any new travel powers? Time will tell. But it can be fun to speculate on what we MIGHT see.
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This poster must be psychic - clearly he has insight into not only the developer's appetite for new challenges, but more importantly, the "level of excitement" in the entire playerbase in support of the addition of vehicles to this game.|
Originally Posted by davidzenyugen
I have heard that the developers have seen so much fervour from the players about vehicles that they are definitely considering it, despite the extreme technical difficulties. They are delaying for that reason, but it is expected. The level of excitement by the fan base is pretty high about this topic, which is a good sign; since NCSOFT does seem to listen to its fan base. I think the technical challenges might only whet their programmers' appetites, cause they like to show off. I must admit I don't expect vehicles to be introduced with issue 19 or anything, but I suspect in the coming years it is inevitable now. The real question is how will it work for the players, and what vehicles have the most popularity so they are certain to be included. This thread was about new travel powers, so I thought a discussion of what might be under consideration had to include this exciting possibility. The more it's discussed, the more the developers will be listening. Will we actually see any new travel powers? Time will tell. But it can be fun to speculate on what we MIGHT see.
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For myself, I really don't see the need to add vehicles. They don't work in many parts of most of our zones - can you see driving a car in the crappy areas of Mercy Island near the starting point of the game, or in most of Nerva Archipelago or Talos Island, let alon in the Shadow Shard or Cimerora?
As for the idea of the vehicles just not working in those areas - so those who want to add them would then either need to select a second travel power to navigate the non-roadway zones? That sounds like something else for people to whine about here.
Honestly, did you even read what Forbin posted?
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
One possiblity for a new travel power would be EPIC TELEPORTATION. These would be heavy endurance users with rather slow recharge times.
Tier 1: Save Friend: recalls teammate who is defeated or has less than 20% hp and then casts a large revive and heal inspiration on them. Recall friend would still be needed to bring in healthier teammates.
Tier 2: Capture Foe: recalls lieutenants and bosses with high accuracy, but some danger of aggroing minions. Does not work on minions, elite bosses, archvillains, etc. In PVP it is more likely to work than teleport foe, but not a certainty. Recall foe would be the only way to capture a minion.
Tier 3: Evasive Maneuvers: initiates 6 quick, but random teleports; so quick that it does not aggro surrounding villains. May be cancelled during execution, and if the last teleport lands near an enemy, there is a 5 second stealth in place and no immediate aggro. Think Tsoo Sorcerer.
Tier 4: Zone Port: Used on the city (or Rogue Isle) minimap, transports to the zone at the location usually used by superbase teleporters. Long and interruptable. May be used even if the zone has not previously been visited, but won't work anywhere base transporters don't go.
Tier 5: Ultraport: Used on the minimap, either a mish map or a zone. Only works on areas previously visited. No range limitations. Does not work in a different city zone or a different "island" redside. Moderate recharge and animation time, but interruptable.
The powers blueside would be used instead of some other epic power, redside would be available by a new Villain Patron. Since these powers would only be available to characters of level 41 up, they would, hopefully, unlikely to unbalance the game.