Is Demons doing more damage then other henchmen?
By
Boerewors,
Posted on: 2010-09-05 17:34 in Masterminds
Before the level 32 upgrade I would agree. I think the bots do appreciable damage with the laser light show and assault bot burn patches after level 32.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Have you played Ninjas? Or Thugs? I would say that Demons does very good damage relative to the survivability of the pets-- they are just so tough. But it certainly doesn't out damage Ninjas, and is slightly behind Thugs and Bots as well IMO.
As an MM nut and a Thugs enthusiast I would completely put my opinion behind thugs for highest DPS. I even tested this. I took a Demons/Dark, Demons/Thermal and a Thugs/Dark through the exact same missions in one night at the exact same level (32) and I can tell you that as long as you can keep the thugs alive and firing, the demons lag way behind in damage. Thugs just pump out high streams of consistent damage through the long and wide cones of the Enforcers and coupled with the Arsonist burn patch, nothing lives long.
Demons are a big flashy light show, they survive easier but they definately do not do the damage that Thugs pump out.
I played these missions at +3 level +1 group solo.
Thugs also have the option of slotting the most beneficial procs in them, achilles heel -res in the enforcers being the most important.
Other than looks, Demons are very meh. Good for a control based MM, works incredibly well in sets where holds are available by 32 such as Dark and Poison to stack with the Demon Prince hold.
@Boerewors
I have a 34 thugs/therm. They do a lot of damage, but the not when the arson is unable to stay alive 90% of the time. If the arson is dead you only have 5 pets, not 6 and so the high DPS drops. Thugs have no innate resistance like demons, bots, etc. Even with the thermal shields and heals I cannot keep that arson alive.
Also have a 42 bots/thermal and a 50 bots/dark. The thermal was soloing AV's at 35. Might have done it before that, but found this out accidentally when I was soloing a x5 mission and an AV shows up. At first I started checking to see if I could put together a team to help, but then I looked back up at the bots and they were fighting the AV with their hit points still up. So I went in to help them and we killed it.
You say that bots do more damage then demons? I tried going after reds, oranges and yellows with both the 42 bots/therm and and also my 30 demons/therm. Even without the 32 upgrade, the demons take down the npcs much faster. I stopped playing the demons at 30 because the demons were dieing a lot even with the thermal shield on top of their high lethal/smash resistance. The Dev's must have fixed this because I was soloing +1/x4 missions last night and they never died. Their health rarely went down at all.
Tier 1 ninjas do a little damage, tier 2 ninjas do amazing damage for a henchman, but when the tier 3 pet did no damage even at 32. They just do holds and very minor damage. At least the tier 3 demon does massive damage on top of their hold. I abandoned this set because of the tier 2 pets doing 80% of the work. I expected the tier 3 ninja to be a master damage doer like bots, demons and thugs. Was really let down when it didn't. Putting Forge on that tier 3 ninja was a complete waste.
You ever try putting Hell on Earth, Forge and Assault on the Tier 3 demon? It is a 103% damage boost. I trained hasten to keep it on him as much as possible (also to keep the two debuffs up). The top three pets are normally at 62% with just Forge and Assault. Plus Hell on Earth is like Gangwar on thugs.
I have a 33 DS/Dark, but Dark can't buff the pet's damage.
I had asked the above question, but when no one responded for hours I went and started doing tests on my own. At this point the demons have a high survival rate (all 6 pets doing DPS) and the ability to take reds down fast (not like the bots that make you fall asleep waiting) -- you ever make a bots/FF? Talk about being dead boring. I have yet to see what the demons will do when I get the 32 upgrade in 1.5 levels, combined with the damage buffs. So I am optimistic.
I think Demons on their own are doing very good damage and mostly because their damage type is more favored (fire damage and cold). The Tier 1 pets do A LOT of damage at a very fast pace. The two range attacks take like 1s and 1.6s whereas Soldiers would spend 3s shooting.
I haven't played other primaries for a while but I am surprised by how much damage Demon does when I level ds/ta.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I have a 50 Thugs/Poison and don't have any troubles keeping my arsonist alive with just my little single target heal, as long as I pay attention and use GOTO when he starts to run.
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Originally Posted by Firewasp
Even with the thermal shields and heals I cannot keep that arson alive.
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I agree with Judas. I have 7 thugs/x MMs and in every one my arsonist is well looked after, simply because I make the effort, which then escalates the damage of the set by a big factor.
Also do not rule out the damage from the enforcers. They have the most reliable damage, very long and pretty wide cones of consistent damage ticks. Add in the lovely procs you can build into them, a cheap frankenslotted enforcer with 4 acc/dmg, achilles heel -res and an end red IO becomes the real damage powerhouse of the set.
Most people look at the burn patch and think that is where the damage is at, which in my opinion is an error.
When I am playing my demon MMs I get really irritated, really quickly with their bleh damage until I make myself realise that I am playing an easier mode set, less babysitting an individual unit. Then it becomes fun as you just order them to attack everything you see and sort our stragglers after.
I am not saying it is a boring set, most definately not, it just takes a mindset and an appreciation of the smaller details: mobs running like glued matrix soldiers, frozen mobs and lots of fire to like it. Just don't expect it to burn down mobs quickly.
@Boerewors
If I have GM rewards correct, in that I need to do 10% of the total damage to get the badge and merits, then I am quite impressed by Demon Summoning's damage.
Earlier today someone spawned Babbage in Skyway city from the TF and announced it so I figured I'd head over.
My MM is Demon/Therm, level 31, no attack powers taken. I put Hell on Earth on the Prince, Forge on him and Tier 2s, and let them attack while I spot healed.
I was not in a team, there were at least a dozen others there... Plenty of scrappers and at least one stalker, and for some reason someone summoned a Vanguard HVAS. So, if I have the requirements right, the demons alone, even without the 32 buff, did 10%+. I'm impressed if that's true.
I have Thugs/Poison and Thugs/Dark (both 32+), Thugs/Pain and Thugs/Thermal (both 26+) so this isn't a bias speaking.
If I'm wrong about what I needed to do for the rewards, totally ignore me!
It might have changed, as last night I was soloing, passed a team fighting Deathsurge, and got in all of three hits before he went down, and got my merits.
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Originally Posted by reiella
Until I see something that states to the contrary, going to assume VK is right
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If you have only ever played Bots, and never experienced Thugs, the difference in damage may be overly noticable to you.
The three heavy hitters act differently depending on a number of factors. Bots doesn't get their real damage until level 32, and really doesn't shine unless it's hitting like 5 targets per shot. (It's all in the Burn 
) Thugs doesn't get as much AoE damage overall, but it's more consistent, coming from the Enforcers since level 12, and being much better against smaller spawns. Ninjas has really good single target damage, but honestly can't come close to competing with the other two in the AoE department.
It's my guess Demons will find its own niche within that. I'm not sure what it is, as I have yet to try them out myself.
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The secret is to use Smoke Flash on the Oni. The Jounin can Hide themselves for their Criticals, but the Oni needs you to give him the crits. Of course, you could Hide one of the Genin, but Fire Breath gives you a little more AoE.|
Originally Posted by Firewasp
Tier 1 ninjas do a little damage, tier 2 ninjas do amazing damage for a henchman, but when the tier 3 pet did no damage even at 32. They just do holds and very minor damage. At least the tier 3 demon does massive damage on top of their hold. I abandoned this set because of the tier 2 pets doing 80% of the work. I expected the tier 3 ninja to be a master damage doer like bots, demons and thugs. Was really let down when it didn't. Putting Forge on that tier 3 ninja was a complete waste.
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You basically have two types of Mastermind henchmen sets, though. The melee type of henchmen typically start with high damage in the Tier 1s, peaking with the Tier 2 damage, and the Tier 3 typically stands back and has a support role. The Oni and Lich have this in common, although I think the Oni has the edge in damage. They aren't really intended to be the heavy damage dealers for your team, that's what the Tier 2s are for. That way if you lose one of them in melee, the other is still standing.
The ranged type of henchmen are typically the other way around. The damage is fairly moderate in Tier 1, drops in Tier 2, and then becomes massively concentrated in the Tier 3. The Tier 2s typically play the support role, the Protector Bots are purely defensive, while the Spec Ops have a control role, as well as striking from stealth. It's the Commando and the Assault Bot that you concentrate on defending, because they manage most of your damage.
Thugs are kind of an odd compromise. The Punks are weak, weaker than the other Tiers, although in comparison to the other Tier 1s they still deal more damage. The Tier 2s do the majority of the damage, as if they were meleers. But they aren't the ones in melee, the Tier 3 is, whose damage is lower than the Tier 2s, but greater than the Tier 1s. He doesn't really perform the support role, the Tier 2s do, but he's the one the MM wants to concentrate on defending.
It's sounding like Demons fits the ranged pattern, with the Tier 3 doing the most damage. The Tier 2s are obviously defensive in nature, like Bots. But unlike Bots, the damage isn't all concentrated in the Tier 3, or in the Burn patches, it's a little more balanced, like Mercs. Only, they're better defended than Mercs, not concentrating so much on the stealth and control.
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Hmm you haven't played Demons, have you? Tier 2 is definitely not just support.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
It's sounding like Demons fits the ranged pattern, with the Tier 3 doing the most damage. The Tier 2s are obviously defensive in nature, like Bots. But unlike Bots, the damage isn't all concentrated in the Tier 3, or in the Burn patches, it's a little more balanced, like Mercs. Only, they're better defended than Mercs, not concentrating so much on the stealth and control.
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The Ember Demon is great support, but has Fire Blast, Fire Breath and Fire Ball, also. He's basically a limited Fire/Thermal corruptor without scourge. Single Target Heal, AoE Heal, Resists, no debuffs, a few fire blast attacks.
The other tier 2 demon, the Hellfire Gargoyle, does a lot of damage. He has an AoE fire aura, he has fire/toxic ranged nukes/cones, he has multiple knockdown melee attacks. He's basically a blapper with an aoe toggle.
The Demon Prince is very much an ice/ice dominator. He does very solid damage and has a couple of controls (Hold, PBAoE slow toggle, PBAoE sleep all his attacks are -slow, -rech). He's definitely not like the lich or oni where you aren't feeling much of his damage.
All of the tier 1 pets are pretty standard, except for their unusual damage types, and the toxic one has -res and the cold one has -slow, -rech on its attacks. They do a lot of damage, too. They're fairly squishy for a while(What tier 1 pet isn't until they have enough DEF), but not thugs level, and both the ice and toxic one have a habit of drawing aggro, but not like an arsonist.
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This. A perma Smoke-flashed Oni does wicked damage. |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The secret is to use Smoke Flash on the Oni.
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And the OP might want to re check the damage on Genin-- they might well have the highest DPS of any tier 1.
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No, I was really going on the Ember Demon's support powers, although I did wonder how the Hellfire Gargoyle's greater damage emphasis would effect that. I suspect that was by design, the devs were trying to reach a compromise between Protector Bots and Enforcers. |
Originally Posted by Monstrofo
Hmm you haven't played Demons, have you? Tier 2 is definitely not just support.
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However, I will point out that the Protector Bots have Photon Grenade, and can do damage comparable to the Tier 1s. There are only two of them, but their damage base is higher. (Plus they're a level higher) Of course, you've got to slot them for damage for that, and I prefer to 3 slot them with Defense. That's just me, though, I'm sure others go with a more offensive build.
Probably doesn't compete with the Demons, but Protector Bots are hardly pure support themselves.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
And the OP might want to re check the damage on Genin-- they might well have the highest DPS of any tier 1.
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Of course, one thing to keep in mind for Thugs is that the Enforcers give them all a damage bonus (doubled!) past 32. In fact, this could be where a good portion of Demons damage comes from, there is so much -Res flying around that a base damage comparison doesn't really tell the whole story.
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You get merits if you get even one hit for 1 damage. Badges for GMs and AVs require a % of the damage.
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Originally Posted by Von Krieger
It might have changed, as last night I was soloing, passed a team fighting Deathsurge, and got in all of three hits before he went down, and got my merits.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Bots do great AoE's, but it seems you might fall asleep waiting for them to kill something. Demons seem to kill stuff pretty fast. Is this true or am I just dreaming?