VEATs and HEATs not so epic?
By
A Man In Black,
Posted on: 2010-09-01 11:08 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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You're right, my SoA is just a normal person. No superpowers, no heat vision, no conjuring demons from the nether to do his bidding.|
Originally Posted by Zero_System
Give me Arachnos for instance: It makes an interesting story line. Definatly great ATs with their own perks and specialities. A lot of fun to play. But come on, you're AWOL arachnos soldiers. How many of you guys have killed wolf spiders and blood widows in the hundreds area? It isn't hard to get the badges for those particular enemies. You're just an AWOL version of them, what makes you so special and hardcore? |
He's got his rifle. He's got his grenades. He's got his training. And he still regularly goes up against superpowered PPDs, signature heroes, the most badass, overpowered, pinnacle of perfection beings out there.
And he wins.
That's what makes him so special and hardcore. Thanks for asking
Epic does not necessarily mean "OMGWTFBBQ".
When the devs used Epic in regards to these archtypes, they were referring to the fact that these ATs had large, overarching storylines.
They were never intended to be more powerful than the original base archtypes.
Epic = tied to a storyline. Not "godmode."
As they both have specific storylines you play through (admittedly the VEAT arcs suck,) they are exactly what they're supposed to be.
Oh I know. I love my Bane Spider and his Wolf Spider build. I'm all for "natural" characters and wish there was more in the game in ways of Technology and Natural origin.
And I see what you're saying, but still I would just like one that's meant to be the epitome of either side you know? I mean it is up to us to make ourselves that character concept wise, but it would be nice to have powers of the sort too I guess?
Is what I suggested too far fetched for the game though? To help mix the character concept of being the epitome of something? Epic can be used in multiple ways. I understand about storyline, but it be nice too be what as I said before. My concept idea just too different or would there be no place for it?
epic only refers to the storyline(debatable). And arachnose are epic when a few or more are on a team together their team buffs make them and everyone around them walking gods.
maybe you haven't played the arachnose long enough or teamed with others of your kind to see the true benifit they provide but it is epic I promise you.
I have no opinion of the kelds really there ok but not nearly as sweet as the spiders.
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Oh no you misunderstand. I love my bane spider and wolf spider. I know what they can do in large groups with Forts and Widows. I know it with first hand experiance that they are epic. I'm just trying to ask for something more along the lines of playing with a different concept? Not just the naturalistic views of SoA and Kheldians. I know they are powerful. But what about those who want to be more high tech, or mutation? I know there are hundreds of ways you could explain their powers, but stuff for magic would be nice too.
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Originally Posted by BlueClaws
epic only refers to the storyline(debatable). And arachnose are epic when a few or more are on a team together their team buffs make them and everyone around them walking gods.
maybe you haven't played the arachnose long enough or teamed with others of your kind to see the true benifit they provide but it is epic I promise you. I have no opinion of the kelds really there ok but not nearly as sweet as the spiders. |
I don't think there will ever be "Epic" Archetypes in this game, in the sense of "godmode". Unfortunate, but true.
And if there ever were, there would be more to unlocking them than just getting a character to 50. (That's always the problem, though. So-called "Epic" classes, no matter how hard the devs try to make them to earn, will always be unlocked by some guy within 24 hours of when they're released. Well, okay maybe a week. )
I will say that your idea does sound kind of like where I think the devs are going with Incarnates. Except it won't be a whole new AT you start over with, you'll take your existing characters beyond 50.
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That's possibly true. Maybe not that "unfortunate" but.. and yeah I said it should be something more than just 50. I don't know. I would like some feedback on the "ATs" I suggested?
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I don't think there will ever be "Epic" Archetypes in this game, in the sense of "godmode". Unfortunate, but true.
And if there ever were, there would be more to unlocking them than just getting a character to 50. (That's always the problem, though. So-called "Epic" classes, no matter how hard the devs try to make them to earn, will always be unlocked by some guy within 24 hours of when they're released. Well, okay maybe a week. ) |
In my opinion "epic" isn't the word for the villain and hero unlockable ATs. Let me see if I follow your line of thinking here:
You want epitome of good and evil ATs and the feeling of "hey, I'm playing this badass devil from down under (Australia? 
) or this angelic goddess from on high"
You can do that right now with any of the other ATs. I've seen illusion/empathy controllers with angelic costumes and blue light power colors. I've seen fire/DA or other demonic themed villains out there named dark-darkitty-mcdark-darkilicious-darkmaul names.
You can be as good or evil as you want with customizable power colors, costumes, etc.
The unlockable ATs are just that, unlockable. Whoever coined up the term Epic Arch-Type was off the mark.
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I know and I have plenty of them. I have a "shapeshifter" that's meant to be just downright evil and malicious. Sociopath sort of person. I just sorta want.. over the top powers I guess that fit the theme more? Or maybe more of "epic" arch types for each Origin that could be useable for concept. Not JUST "Natural" "science". Maybe their should be an "Epic" or "unlockable" for each one. Still no one has any feedback on what I actually said? :P Powerwise?
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Originally Posted by Red Pirate Boggarts
In my opinion "epic" isn't the word for the villain and hero unlockable ATs. Let me see if I follow your line of thinking here:
You want epitome of good and evil ATs and the feeling of "hey, I'm playing this badass devil from down under (Australia? ) or this angelic goddess from on high"You can do that right now with any of the other ATs. I've seen illusion/empathy controllers with angelic costumes and blue light power colors. I've seen fire/DA or other demonic themed villains out there named dark-darkitty-mcdark-darkilicious-darkmaul names. You can be as good or evil as you want with customizable power colors, costumes, etc. The unlockable ATs are just that, unlockable. Whoever coined up the term Epic Arch-Type was off the mark. |
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I don't think I could vote with you there. I see your point, and in a single player game, having an AT that's just plain better power-wise than anything else would be cool. In an MMO? That would defeat the purpose of getting different classes since everyone would either be epic A or B, or else they'ed get epic A / B over the other ATs.
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Originally Posted by Zero_System
I know and I have plenty of them. I have a "shapeshifter" that's meant to be just downright evil and malicious. Sociopath sort of person. I just sorta want.. over the top powers I guess that fit the theme more? Or maybe more of "epic" arch types for each Origin that could be useable for concept. Not JUST "Natural" "science". Maybe their should be an "Epic" or "unlockable" for each one. Still no one has any feedback on what I actually said? :P Powerwise?
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They're Epic archetypes in the sense of epic fail, actually.
That's one of the things i really don't understand when it comes to the design choices. Whole point of the game is to have high customization, variety and freedom, and a lot of the recent dev efforts have gone that way.
On the other hand, we're given epic archetypes who feel more like a common MMO character than a coh one, let's see:
-neither get any kind of power customization
-neither get to enjoy any kind of power proliferation, not even patron/epic pools
-they have a lot of restrictions when it comes to costume. Kheldians are stuck with a gameplay forcing them to turn into basic NPC models most of the time, crabs are stuck with the bacpack, other VEAT have poor weapon customization, and their special costumes, instead of being a "plus" lock them into looking all the sames as you can't mix them up with normal costumes
-while they have a high amount of powers, some of them are forced or restricted, and they can't really access a variety of playstyles like other archetypes do
On top of that the kheldians are a joke, while the VEATs at least feel like a useful addition to a team and an efficient archetype.
To make them truely "epic", what would be needed imo:
-power customization
-patron/epic pools proliferation
-allow VEAT costume parts to be used in normal costumes
-enable more weapon options for them
-make human form kheldian a viable playstyle
-customizable forms for kheldian which would be a unique ability and make them actually stand out
-rework some of the kheldian powers so they can be somewhat competitive and interesting rather than gathering all the downsides of other archetypes and mix them up in a single character
It's not a matter of "power" or efficiency (though kheldians really suck) but a matter of what makes CoX a good game: options, variety, customization. And oddly enough, the famous "epic" archetypes are totally lacking the qualities of this game, on top of being ignored by the recent changes.
Dark armor lover.
The Claws/DA Scrapper guide.
So what you're saying is you want an AT that normal players won't ever get access to because they usually don't get far enough to run hamidon raids or gather every single badge in existance so you and a select handful of people can run around feeling special?
No thanks.
And they don't need to be super powerful. Epic means storyline driven, not HOLYOMGOVERPOWERED.
Also, this paragraph right here:
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So yes, you did suggest an AT that the majority of players won't be able to play.
| In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, I think there should be an epic arch type for both sides that you don't get just for "being level 50". I don't know what you would have to do to unlock it, maybe be a part of a big team effort like a Hami raid, or have x many badges, or a certain type of badge to prove you did something. Heck maybe even a certain number of vet badges? (Just NO PvP badges!) Maybe not exactly fair, but come on it's meant to be epic? a Veteran play style. I know the VEATs and HEATs are meant to be "difficult" and "tougher" to play then other ATs and that's what makes them Vet toons, but we need something conceptually more powerful. My idea? Ultimate Evil, Ultimate Good. something along those lines. |
Characters!:
Pinny - Scrapper
Shadewing - Defender
@Pinny
Well it's sorta along the lines of what was said before. Epic is to follow a more specific storyline? But yes I agree. While i've heard most people like Warshades fewer like Peacebringers. I'm not sure how that plays but that's sorta what I was saying too. I think it could be settled with there being two "epics" for each Origin, one for villains one for heroes? And maybe get away from the restrictedness of enemy units. I've gotten a new idea from it though.
Soldiers of Arachnos are the epitome of the natural origin, maybe? They are highly trained, ruthless, and well equipped. Hell their whole story arc is about going AWOL and becoming more.
Kheldians I'm a little less... convinced. They're natural and scientific which somewhat doesn't make sense but does. They seem to be lacking in some areas.
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No.. I'm saying nothing of the sort. I want an AT that's meant for the normal players. It's not very hard to get to lvl 50, it's not very hard to go on a hamidon raid. And in no way did I say colelct every single badge in existance. That would be stupid. All I said was more requirements than "Just" getting to lvl 50 because that's pointless. I thought it was very dumb to lower it to 20. When you have something that's "epic" even if it is just story arc, you don't want a bunch of newbies running around trying to play an AT when they don't even know how to play the game. Thus what happened a lot in WoW with the Death Knight: People got PLed to whatever level, and then they made the Death Knight class and had no idea how to even play the game. It was like that with level 50, they just made it even easier.
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Originally Posted by Pinny
So what you're saying is you want an AT that normal players won't ever get access to because they usually don't get far enough to run hamidon raids or gather every single badge in existance so you and a select handful of people can run around feeling special?
No thanks. |
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Uh PBs are natural, because they are aliens living inside humans in a symbiotic relationship. Its natural because that is the the nature of those beings. (hint, Superman is a natural alien)|
Originally Posted by Zero_System
Kheldians I'm a little less... convinced. They're natural and scientific which somewhat doesn't make sense but does. They seem to be lacking in some areas.
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WSs are science because they started out as nictus that were implanted into humans but had a change of heart and abandoned their fellow parasitic nictus kind to live togther with their hosts like PBs do. But they started out being force ably implanted into hosts. Which falls into the science origin.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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when I said I wasn't convinced i meant that they were the epitome of their origin. That's all. I know what kheldians are and their story. I was just trying to say that maybe the unlockables should be the epitome of their origin. Here's a new idea too. You need lvl 50 with that origin to get that unlockable? Something? I dunno.
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Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
Uh PBs are natural, because they are aliens living inside humans in a symbiotic relationship. Its natural because that is the the nature of those beings. (hint, Superman is a natural alien)
WSs are science because they started out as nictus that were implanted into humans but had a change of heart and abandoned their fellow parasitic nictus kind to live togther with their hosts like PBs do. But they started out being force ably implanted into hosts. Which falls into the science origin. |
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The devs are on record that making the EATs hard to unlock (level 50) was a huge mistake. Somehow I don't see them making new ATs, with all the work that implies, and then making them even harder to unlock.
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Originally Posted by Zero_System
when I said I wasn't convinced i meant that they were the epitome of their origin. That's all. I know what kheldians are and their story. I was just trying to say that maybe the unlockables should be the epitome of their origin. Here's a new idea too. You need lvl 50 with that origin to get that unlockable? Something? I dunno.
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If you want epic, make your ATs Incarnate in i19.
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Why would you need to do that? What good would it add to the community and to the general progression of the game? When you add roadblocks, you need a sound reason that you NEED to limit that particular part of the game.|
Originally Posted by Zero_System
when I said I wasn't convinced i meant that they were the epitome of their origin. That's all. I know what kheldians are and their story. I was just trying to say that maybe the unlockables should be the epitome of their origin. Here's a new idea too. You need lvl 50 with that origin to get that unlockable? Something? I dunno.
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Also your Death Knight comparison is flawed, the reason so many people played them or PLed to get them was because they started out at lvl 55 with epic gear compared to everything in that level range. Epic ATs start at level one like everyone else, there is no advantage to rolling one instead of playing the character that unlocked them.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
Getting to lvl 50 was too hard? Grant it it took me a while only because I can't stop making alts, but how is 50 in any way hard? You still get people who know very little about the game get to level 50 and don't know what their doing.
That's if the Incarnate system is still like that. I don't really know anything about it atm, is it still going to have Incarnate powers or is it just a new form of enhancements or what?
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I was just saying it be something different, something to look forward to in an origin. not like it would be hard? |
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
Why would you need to do that? What good would it add to the community and to the general progression of the game? When you add roadblocks, you need a sound reason that you NEED to limit that particular part of the game.
Also your Death Knight comparison is flawed, the reason so many people played them or PLed to get them was because they started out at lvl 55 with epic gear compared to everything in that level range. Epic ATs start at level one like everyone else, there is no advantage to rolling one instead of playing the character that unlocked them. |
And yes I know that but they still had people who knew nothing about the game who didn't know how to play want to get there asap just to play that one class, and when they got there did nothing but get themselves killed and made people hate them lol. It wasn't just the equipment and level, it was something new and something people thought they would be good at and then find out they weren't. Maybe not nessisarily HAVE to have that origin to unlock it, just that there would be more to be the epitome of?
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Um, not exactly. Read the lore. (And there's a handy dandy guide right in my sig.)|
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
Uh PBs are natural, because they are aliens living inside humans in a symbiotic relationship. Its natural because that is the the nature of those beings. (hint, Superman is a natural alien)
WSs are science because they started out as nictus that were implanted into humans but had a change of heart and abandoned their fellow parasitic nictus kind to live togther with their hosts like PBs do. But they started out being force ably implanted into hosts. Which falls into the science origin. |
Peacebringers are normal Kheldians. The powers granted are the same as any normal Kheldian (not Nictus - and Warshades are essentially rebel Nictus) would have in that relationship.
Nictus, however, are not science for the reason you give. They were Kheldians undertook experiements on extending their lifespans which altered them enough to be a new sort of being - the Nictus. Has nothing to do with being forcibly implanted. That bit was purely one scheme the Nictus on Earth had to try to start a takeover. The Nictus and the Peacebringers, frankly, want to wipe each other out - though the Nictus can use them to live off of (see: Cosmotron arc.) Warshades are Nictus who have turned their backs on the Nictus side of the war and are now fighting against them to stop them.
(And to whoever was saying Khelds suck, all I can say is "lol.")
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And what do you say to the people that make alts instead of lvling to 50, but have been playing the game for years? Suck it up? |
Originally Posted by Zero_System
Getting to lvl 50 was too hard? Grant it it took me a while only because I can't stop making alts, but how is 50 in any way hard? You still get people who know very little about the game get to level 50 and don't know what their doing.
That's if the Incarnate system is still like that. I don't really know anything about it atm, is it still going to have Incarnate powers or is it just a new form of enhancements or what? |
What is your fixation on ATs restricted by level? The devs have already admitted that they made a mistake setting up the 'epic' ATs that way. You need something more substantial then "It was easy for me to hit 50 so it should be fine for everyone else" to warrant that If they make another AT they should restrict it in the same way.
And your second question is something for another thread.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
Before people start hammering me that I'm stupid to think that neither Kheldians nor Arachnos soldiers are good let me stop you there, I like both a lot. My quarrel is should this really be considered our "Epic" Arch Types? Especially now where any noob can get them at lvl 20? I think that we should have some real Epic godmode like archtypes. Not something so overpowered that it's unbalanced, but something that makes you feel more epic.
Give me Arachnos for instance: It makes an interesting story line. Definatly great ATs with their own perks and specialities. A lot of fun to play. But come on, you're AWOL arachnos soldiers. How many of you guys have killed wolf spiders and blood widows in the hundreds area? It isn't hard to get the badges for those particular enemies. You're just an AWOL version of them, what makes you so special and hardcore?
Give me Kheldians: Alright so these seem a little more powerful then the Arachnos. Are they? Not in the slightest. In fact most people I talk to dislike the Kheldians. Some however make really powerful ones and don't complain and are happy. They have these special effects and transformations and all this prettyness but there's a lack in power, and you're an alien symbiot. Hard to play with the concept? Sometimes, maybe not. But "epic" arch type should it be?
In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, I think there should be an epic arch type for both sides that you don't get just for "being level 50". I don't know what you would have to do to unlock it, maybe be a part of a big team effort like a Hami raid, or have x many badges, or a certain type of badge to prove you did something. Heck maybe even a certain number of vet badges? (Just NO PvP badges!) Maybe not exactly fair, but come on it's meant to be epic? a Veteran play style. I know the VEATs and HEATs are meant to be "difficult" and "tougher" to play then other ATs and that's what makes them Vet toons, but we need something conceptually more powerful. My idea? Ultimate Evil, Ultimate Good. something along those lines.
Ultimate Evil:A mixture of dark/fire energy type powers. Loaded with siphons and such. like a puffed up dark/dark brute or something? You siphon health and endurance etc, you debuff. I guess people could say this is the Warshade but maybe a squid isn't the best place to go? But something along these lines would make sense. I would think a sort of death/dark magic or energy sort of person makes sense. Think Fable 1 magic powers and stuff. Just down right evil stuff?
Ultimate Good: White and blue sort of "holy" attacks. Sure they may be some heals or something along the lines of team buffs, but this could totally be the holy smiter for good side. While Evil siphons, Good controls and contains maybe? All the above should have high burst damage though.
Drawbacks I'm not sure yet, i'm just throwing an Idea out there. But the story line should be the epitome of what you are doing. Ultimate evil trying to have some actual plot to take over the Rogue isles, Paragon city, and the world. While Ultimate good is doing the opposite to stop that? To be the knight in shining armor for all.
Again, these are just ideas and a few suggestions. Any sort of feedback? Anyone think this might be an interesting concept to play with? I just want something that's worthy of the title "Epic" and be something different. Not just someone from the game, but if it has to be, something new and exciting that isn't just an enemy group.