Why Huntsman and not Crab for AoE?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-08-29 16:55 in Soldiers of Arachnos
Access to different powers is one potential reason. Huntsmen will have access to Build-Up, Surveillance and Cloaking Device from the Bane pools. Number one reason though? No crab arms. Some folks like 'em, some don't. I fall into the latter camp myself.
ETA: Huntsman will generally have significantly better single-target damage as well.
What Panzer said. I love the Crab arms but I also run a Bane build and can't stand having 'em sit on my back being useless. If the Devs ever find a way to make 'em exclusive to one build instead of crossing over I'd rebuild a Crab in a heartbeat.
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) Thanks for the thoughts. What about in terms of gameplay effectiveness?
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I'd put them very close to each other in terms of AOE ability. Crabs have a slight advantage though. If they really want to go all-out AOE, a Crab can take Suppression, Venom Grenade, Frag Grenade, and then tack on Heavy Burst from the Soldier pool. That gives them 4 attacks vs. the Huntsman with Heavy Burst, Venom & Frag. From my experience playing a Huntsman though, I've found that Web Grenade, Venom, Burst & Frag is more than enough when combined with the 30% damage bonus from double Assault running. Gets even better with Bile Spray once PPP's are unlocked.|
Originally Posted by Ledneh_
Thanks for the thoughts. What about in terms of gameplay effectiveness?
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I think where Crabs will have the advantage is if they build for survivability or take the perma-pet route with the Disruptors, Spiderlings and Blaster.
Not to imply that a Huntsman build lacks survivability. Mine is more than capable of running off alone during ITF's and completing objectives without support. But a Crab with Fortification and Serum is going to pull ahead in that area without doubt.
I have been playing my crab for quite some time. Personally I don't think the huntsman build stands up to the crab. I went crab at 24, and never looked back.
First of all, build up is not all it is cracked up to be. It gives +20% to hit and 80% damage. Aim is on the same timer and gives +50% hit and +50% damage. It is less than build up for sure, but you still get over half of the bonus while being guaranteed a 95% chance to hit on +4s.
You can summon 3x spiderlings that have ~49 damage each unenhanced on on a 3.8s cooldown. This is a significant boost to your single target damage that you may lose out otherwise. With an attack chain consisting of suppression, venom, bile spray, and school of sharks, one is always up. Since I can only fire my attacks so fast, having those pets doing damage off my cooldowns is very significant.
Serum and fortification are very nice, and although it can be tough to tell at times how well your passive buffs are working, serum has consistently saved my butt many times.
Web grenade seems kinda cool at first, but it does no damage. School of sharks does a significant amount of it, and is negative energy so tougher to resist. It does have the disadvantage of not hitting enemies in the air, but 95%+ of the time this is not an issue.
Surveillance is nice, but it is single target. Great for AV's, but if you are playing an AoE character you shouldn't be worrying about single target dps anyway. Play to your strengths; let the scrapper/stalker deal with it while you take the pressure off them by killing everything else.
Here's a related question about Crab AoE builds, then. Do they, as a rule, take their melee AoE skills, or do they stick to ranged (and therefore pick up wolf primary powers, resulting in gundraw)?
The Crab melee attacks are generally subpar, and there are better things to be spending your power picks and enhancement slots on.
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The build I'm settling in and tinkering with has the following recharge values at all times:|
Originally Posted by Ledneh_
Here's a related question about Crab AoE builds, then. Do they, as a rule, take their melee AoE skills, or do they stick to ranged (and therefore pick up wolf primary powers, resulting in gundraw)?
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Suppression: 6.99 sec
Venom Grenade: 9.15 sec
Frag Grenade: 9.28 sec
Omega Maneuver: 146.2 sec
If the Force Feedback proc goes off, these times speed up considerably.
As was stated above, crab melee in general is sub-par, and you cannot go completely pure AoE anyways so a range-dedicated Crab always has Channelgun and likely Longfang for their ST-damage when needed.
I don't think Omega is worth it. You could be doing far more damage over time with other powers.
(I am not bashing people that play crabs. I just stating my love for my huntsman over my crab.)
I have both a huntsman and crab. The crab has the crab arms of course, which some people find ugly and they stay with you even if you dual spec. The crab is your out of the box, Kmart ready to roll aoe machine and will do fine in a team situation with common IO's. I am building my crab to be a pocket mastermind with great recharge. I am using the bane patron pool so I can get one more single target attack, the web grenade and the extra pet. Its an ok route.
My huntsman on the other hand has been a labor of love. Too quote Aisynia the matron saint of huntsman
"They go in guns blazing, they control the situation, deal with it in the most brutal, efficient possible fashion, and leave. Nothing but a few smoldering corpses and charred floor tiles should be left when they and their contingent are done. They are the fire from the hip, grenade lobbing, lead spraying badasses that come in to put down a situation someone else couldn't handle."
My hunstman just turned 50 and I am praying to the living Christ they give us another 9 levels so I can level him again. Leveling him up has been a face melting, asskicking, collateral damage causing, property destroying son of a gun. Their still trying to fix the fire damage and clean the blood of of several buildings in the Rogue Isles.
I almost have his pets "Heckle" and "Jeckle" on perma summon. Double stacked leadership provides a huge bonus for a team. End has been a problem but a lot of the sets I have on him give recovery bonuses. I still need a couple of sets then I'll be good to go. My Huntsman is just sick. Huntsman IMHO outdo crabs once you figure everything in.
There nothing better than playing a toon that's 5'5 and carries a big gun, and knows how to use it with great effect.
Playing a crab is pretty straightforward and doesn't require much fine tuning and they look their straining to use the restroom when they use suppression.
I look at my huntsman as a cross between Wyatt Earp, the terminator and Dirty Harry. No fancy energy weapons, no psychic abilities, exotic poisons, light sabers, or minions of hell. Just a man at the peak of physical perfection and skill at using a state of the art shotgun w/grenade launcher and cutting edge ordinance with the help of a couple of robots, and a computer that analyzes their opponents powers and skills.
The Huntsman motto "Gun control means hitting your target!"
Havent played a Bane Spider or the Huntsman build on a crab yet. I plan to make one at one point.
However my current Crab Spider Major Havokk has SIX ranged AoE attacks ( seven if you count the Omega Maneuver ) and 43% ranged defense and three dcent single target blats as well and I have the larger of the two available pets as well.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
I have to disagree with you dmcfarland. Crabs should be played for damage. Maybe part of your problem is web grenade? The benefits that its immobilize grants is not worth sacrificing the damage. Go Leviathan, get school of sharks and bile spray.
Crabs get your "Heckle" and "Jeckle" pets as well. What exactly is the everything you're figuring in? From your post it just seems like you are sacrificing worthwhile abilities for less effective ones. Crabs are great out of the box, sure, but I spent a lot of time tweaking my build and enhancement setup. I think it paid off in spades. I don't think they are as straightforward as you think they are.
Can you post your current build? I will post an approximate (powers and enh match my char, but not necessarily the order I took them) copy of my character. Could you post yours as well?
Code:
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To me this is complete overkill. I have 4 (see my character above) and there is always one up. Why bother having way more attacks than you can even use?
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
However my current Crab Spider Major Havokk has SIX ranged AoE attacks ( seven if you count the Omega Maneuver )
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Target limits: seriously, a crab can outlast huge spawns. Sometimes it's fun to overaggro and then just lambast the hordes with aoe. Sure, half may be dead partway through, but on a crab you have more AoE to go on the other half that your target cap kept you from hitting.
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Originally Posted by Smoothjedi
To me this is complete overkill. I have 4 (see my character above) and there is always one up. Why bother having way more attacks than you can even use?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Smoothjedi
To me this is complete overkill. I have 4 (see my character above) and there is always one up. Why bother having way more attacks than you can even use?
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First off to quote an old friend...
There is NO kill that is quite as wonderful as OVERKILL !!!!!
To me too many attacks is not even a concept. Its like saying I have TOO much money or my wife is TOO beautiful. No such thing.
I can use every attack every fight all the time any time I want.. not an issue for me at all.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
To me the Huntsman is not as much the AoE damage, as the bonus he brings to the team. Double stacked Leadership skills, Surveillance, and the Venom Grenade all increase the effectiveness of the team, and while a Crab could get to two of those, the Leadership is unlikely without sacrificing a lot of the very AoE that gives him the advantage.
When you add to that Cloaking Device, to give you Critical damage, and the ability to throw off aggro with Placate, you've just got a very different capability from a Crab. And the Bane wouldn't have Venom Grenade. (Unless he went with the redraw of the gun)
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My main reason for taking Omega Maneuver was not for the extra damage from the mini-nuke, it was to get that last bit of melee defense through a full set of Perfect Zinger to be softcapped to all positions as well as Psionic.|
Originally Posted by Smoothjedi
I don't think Omega is worth it. You could be doing far more damage over time with other powers.
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The build in question is intended for Incarnate content, and with the way I have slotted it, OM manages to do decent damage with base values of 126.2 Smashing, 252.5 Energy, and a chance for 14.4 psionic. Venom Grenade will always be fired off while the OM-bomb does it's taunt-countdown, enhancing the damage done by lowering enemy resistances so that the total possible 393.1 gets a +20% damage boost.
With VG's base recharge on this build at 9.15 seconds, all I need is a minor recharge buff like Accelerate Metabolism to tip the scales even further by being able to permanently debuff enemy resistances by 20% to everything but toxic, and since VG would be firing off again before the 10-second debuff duration expires, the second shot would be doing nearly double damage from the -40% toxic debuff. I have PLENTY of reliable damage on this build, both AoE and ST. I do not need to worry about the downsides of a mini-nuke that does less than stellar damage but acts as a great opening move to cluster a spawn.
I'm not saying that I'll never look back and keep it forever. For the moment it's simply the best choice I have due to the character having redeemed herself at level 36 and thus precluding patron pools.
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Incorrect.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
To me the Huntsman is not as much the AoE damage, as the bonus he brings to the team. Double stacked Leadership skills, Surveillance, and the Venom Grenade all increase the effectiveness of the team, and while a Crab could get to two of those, the Leadership is unlikely without sacrificing a lot of the very AoE that gives him the advantage.
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The two melee AoE attacks are sub-par at best, and worse than Omega in my personal opinion. A Crab can take the leadership pool and not sacrifice a single of the four ranged AoE options available in their Primary powerset. This option becomes even more attractive when character concept requires sacrificing patron pools entirely, even if running six toggles just for team buffs with Hover and Weave to softcap does suck down 1.71 E/sec (1.84/sec if also running Fortification). You simply become a bigger benefit to the team and all you need to pack is a few blues to ensure that your team is always hitting and always hitting for 30% extra damage from the word 'go.'
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Um my Huntsman is hardly gimped, and Ill post his build. They're both AOE machines. That is where the similarities end. I have surveillance, build up, and double stacked leadership. I provide very good support to a team and the sets I have make my Huntsman one bad ****. I don't feel gimped at all and I didn't want to run a generic toon like a crab. I also respected omega maneuver out of my spec because its just lame imho I wanted to go in a different direction and I haven't been sorry about it. I really don't want to get into a pissing contest or see which of us have a bigger gun. In fact I put a disclaimer on the top of my post that eluded to that. |
Originally Posted by Smoothjedi
I have to disagree with you dmcfarland. Crabs should be played for damage. Maybe part of your problem is web grenade? The benefits that its immobilize grants is not worth sacrificing the damage. Go Leviathan, get school of sharks and bile spray.
Crabs get your "Heckle" and "Jeckle" pets as well. What exactly is the everything you're figuring in? From your post it just seems like you are sacrificing worthwhile abilities for less effective ones. Crabs are great out of the box, sure, but I spent a lot of time tweaking my build and enhancement setup. I think it paid off in spades. I don't think they are as straightforward as you think they are. Can you post your current build? I will post an approximate (powers and enh match my char, but not necessarily the order I took them) copy of my character. Could you post yours as well? |
I got the bane stuff because it fits better with the theme. I am not into min maxing bs. I would rather have fun with my toon than being the biggest man on the block.
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You take Leadership in your build?|
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
A Crab can take the leadership pool and not sacrifice a single of the four ranged AoE options available in their Primary powerset.
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| This option becomes even more attractive when character concept requires sacrificing patron pools entirely, even if running six toggles just for team buffs with Hover and Weave to softcap does suck down 1.71 E/sec (1.84/sec if also running Fortification). You simply become a bigger benefit to the team and all you need to pack is a few blues to ensure that your team is always hitting and always hitting for 30% extra damage from the word 'go.' |
Second, I'm assuming you're also planning on picking up Stamina with all of that End running. You'd probably be picking that up anyway, but that's still additional choices that need to be accounted for. And really, it's going to cost the Huntsman the same amount of End. (Fortification doesn't really use more End than Cloaking Device)
The Huntsman has less choices for AoE (one less, if you ignore the melee) but for any of those choices the Huntsman can pick up a Pool or an attack from the Mace.
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I never said your guy was gimped, I just said it sounded like he was not as effective as he could be. As in my character, I do double stack assault, but I don't think the other leadership pool powers are worth it. |
Originally Posted by dmcfarland907
Um my Huntsman is hardly gimped
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I never made this sound like a pissing contest. However the title of the post is questioning whether a huntsman or a crab is more effective, and I felt I needed to put down some counterpoints to your arguments for picking one. The goal is to make your character more enjoyable by increasing his effectiveness, not to necessarily say he sucks compared to someone else.
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It does become overkill when you can't use them all. You cannot possibly "use every attack every fight all the time any time" you want. The game has cooldowns to make sure you cannot. When you are cycling through those attacks, and you have 2-3 aoe powers sitting around not being used, that is overkill. An optimal set up to be the most effective is to have one attack power available every time you have a chance to use one. |
Originally Posted by Airhammer
There is NO kill that is quite as wonderful as OVERKILL !!!!! To me too many attacks is not even a concept. Its like saying I have TOO much money or my wife is TOO beautiful. No such thing. I can use every attack every fight all the time any time I want.. not an issue for me at all. |
To counter your examples, the context of my overkill statement is you have too many powers, not that your powers are too effective. An accurate comparison would be you have too many wives to keep up with them physically or emotionally.
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Too many wives are illegal in the United States and Power Buttons are not emotional. |
Originally Posted by Smoothjedi
It does become overkill when you can't use them all. You cannot possibly "use every attack every fight all the time any time" you want. The game has cooldowns to make sure you cannot. When you are cycling through those attacks, and you have 2-3 aoe powers sitting around not being used, that is overkill. An optimal set up to be the most effective is to have one attack power available every time you have a chance to use one.
To counter your examples, the context of my overkill statement is you have too many powers, not that your powers are too effective. An accurate comparison would be you have too many wives to keep up with them physically or emotionally. |
And since you dont play my toon, you really cant tell me how I utilize my attack chain because I assure you i can push each and every button in the chain.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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I prefer Electrifying Fences over School of Sharks , I couldn't handle the almost 3 second activation time, it drove me nuts. EF has just over a 1 second activation and allows me to move onto my other 3 AOE's. After 4 or 5 respec's this is what I use now...|
Originally Posted by Smoothjedi
I have to disagree with you dmcfarland. Crabs should be played for damage. Maybe part of your problem is web grenade? The benefits that its immobilize grants is not worth sacrificing the damage. Go Leviathan, get school of sharks and bile spray.
Crabs get your "Heckle" and "Jeckle" pets as well. What exactly is the everything you're figuring in? From your post it just seems like you are sacrificing worthwhile abilities for less effective ones. Crabs are great out of the box, sure, but I spent a lot of time tweaking my build and enhancement setup. I think it paid off in spades. I don't think they are as straightforward as you think they are. Can you post your current build? I will post an approximate (powers and enh match my char, but not necessarily the order I took them) copy of my character. Could you post yours as well? Code:
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Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Natural Arachnos Soldier
Primary Power Set: Crab Spider Soldier
Secondary Power Set: Crab Spider Training
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Channelgun -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(3), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Decim-Build%(19), Achilles-ResDeb%(43)
Level 1: Crab Spider Armor Upgrade -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), S'fstPrt-ResKB(36)
Level 2: Longfang -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(5), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 4: Combat Training: Defensive -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(7), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(7), RedFtn-Def(46), RedFtn-EndRdx(46), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Suppression -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(9), Posi-Dmg/Rng(9), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), Posi-Dam%(23), Achilles-ResDeb%(39)
Level 10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(11), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(11), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RedFtn-Def(31), RedFtn-EndRdx(31)
Level 12: Venom Grenade -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(13), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), Posi-Dam%(23)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Run-I(A)
Level 16: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Heal(45), Mrcl-Rcvry+(45), Numna-Heal(45)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Mental Training -- Run-I(A)
Level 24: Fortification -- TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(25), TtmC'tng-EndRdx/Rchg(25), TtmC'tng-ResDam(36), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42), TtmC'tng-EndRdx(46)
Level 26: Frag Grenade -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(27), Posi-Dam%(29), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33)
Level 28: Serum -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(33), Dct'dW-Heal(42), Dct'dW-Rchg(43)
Level 30: Aim -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Omega Maneuver -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(34), Posi-Dam%(34)
Level 35: Summon Spiderlings -- SvgnRt-Acc/Dmg(A), SvgnRt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), SvgnRt-Dmg/EndRdx(37), SvgnRt-PetResDam(37), S'bndAl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), S'bndAl-Build%(42)
Level 38: Call Reinforcements -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(39), ExRmnt-+Res(Pets)(39), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(40), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Electrifying Fences -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(48), Posi-Dmg/Rng(48), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dam%(50), Range-I(50)
Level 44: Tactical Training: Leadership -- GSFC-Build%(A)
Level 47: Tactical Training: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Conditioning
Level 0: Ninja Run
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Something I'm fighting a little to understand. I can see the point of huntsman: get a good AoE selection and have Build Up and Surveillance, which are great. But are they REALLY better as far as getting it done AoE style than a Crab? Seems like the extra powers would make up the difference, as well as being mega tanky.
Or is it just a stylistic thing, or is it not about the AoE potential, but something else?