One thing I've not seen yet (maybe my search-fu is weak?) is a timeline of events in Praetoria. How long ago were the Hamidon Wars? What's the current status of them? How much of the rest of the world survived the nuclear fires?
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
The Hamidon Wars were not the first great divergence - one of the biggest differences is that there was very heavy nuke use at some points (during WW2?), leading to large areas of the world being devastated even before Hamidon turned up. IIRC Los Angelos gets nuked.
~union4lyfe~
the time line broke off at the point cole kills recluse at the Well , how much this effects things is a moot point as we have no details..But with no Recluse the Villain side of the pre hami Wars would be very different.
SPOLIER ALERT
in the Crusader arc of missions there is mention of sending supplys to New Vegas..hinting at other Praet settlements if not cities.
as to money ..the large number of named Corps /Labs/compaies , plus the Synd. must mean currency , given Cole's nature with his pic on .
as to population ..it would seem to be low, as the clockbots are doing all the low paid jobs, though i did spot a Panhandler NPC id Neut.
Probably the best canned history of Praetoria is Tyrant's Bio. A fair number of the bios on the GR site are written IC-ish and so tend to be a bit biased, but this one seems to be fairly OOC, just giving history.
If you dig through the other bits of the site you'll get a fair view of Praetorian recent history.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Hmm... Some of that directly contradicts the mission text at the end of the final Warden arc...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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..and stuff from the Crusader missions .. either the Devs wish to keep an aura of unsure history over Praet , or at some point we will need a OOC history and timeline .
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Hmm... Some of that directly contradicts the mission text at the end of the final Warden arc...
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They really should have gotten one ready for GR launch... We have one for Primal Earth, after all!! Sure, this info isn't needed for straight gamers, but this is a roleplay game too!
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Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
..and stuff from the Crusader missions .. either the Devs wish to keep an aura of unsure history over Praet , or at some point we will need a OOC history and timeline .
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@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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My guess is yes, there is physical money. In the chaos that followed the Hamidon, people would be forced to fall back to barter and, it would take decades to recover from that. It may be that Cole's global state hasn't yet restored or advanced the global economy to point were it's entirely digital. I think it really depends on what the Imperial State thinks is easier to regulate. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
1) Is there physical money in Praetoria, or are economical transactions electronic? If there is money, is it USA dollars or some other currency (perhaps based on ancient Roman currency)? Maybe there is no money per se, just allotments of daily necessities augmented by perks due to employer recommendations and the like (in which case barter would supplement the system).
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I think it also depends on how extensive the damage from the Hamidon War was. How can people trust dollars, yuan or euros if there there is no more USA, China or EU?
Cole probably issued new currency notes--perhaps called Imperial Dollars or Imperial Marks or Nova Francs or whatever--in the efforts to restore a global banking system again. Cole's state also seems a lot more friendly to a quasi-fascistic state managed capitalism or syndicalism than an attempt to impose pure command economy based on complete socialism.
I think Cole's economy is a lot more like Singapore or modern China than China under Mao or the Soviet Union.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
2) How many channels on the TV? It being a police state, programs that challenge the government are not allowed (no Colbert Report), and most entertainment shows probably also are apolitical or praise the regime. Something like "Praetoria has Talent" probably exists, but Reality TV (with their inherently cynical view of life) probably don't. This immediately begs the question of whether books like 'Farenheit 451' even continue to exist in a controlled state.
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Why? Because such banal entertainment entrances the masses, distracts them with the melodrama of personal theater as opposed to global problems. It carries no deep political or philosophical messages. Julia, one of the main characters in 1984, worked in Minitru maintaining simple computers that randomly generated plots for cheap, lurid novels. The proles never realized they were reading the kaleidoscopes of the same thing over and over.
This describes reality TV to a tee.
The premise of Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent is that it's easy to present the illusion of diversity of media without challenging the powers that be. There'd be plenty of TV and radio, plenty of sports, plenty soaps on the tube and so on. Most people wouldn't think deeply enough to question it. They'd take a page from Murdoch's or Hearst's playbook.
But there'd be no Internet. That's for damn sure.
Probably lots of mostly abstract video games though. (Sorry, it had to be said.)
PacMan and Bejeweled are okay. America's Army might be okay too--since it's designed to be a propaganda and recruitment tool--but there is a risk that people might sympathize with the enemy being shown. Bioshock is definitely not okay.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
3) Everyone with enhanced combat ability goes into Powers Division. So what does that say about sports?
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Sports, like reality television, distracts us with irrelevant drama and theater. My guess is Cole would have lots of pro-wrestling style staged fights between various superhumans. Or soccer matches between teams of speedsters. But there'd be no "Running Man" style execution programs on TV--too risky. There must be no chance of interest or sympathy for enemies of the state.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
4) With just about everyone crammed into a single city, what are the population controls? Does Enriche contain a birth control compound (or an anti-Viagra compound) or is there some sort of licensing or lottery process that controls who can have children? Are the children raised by parents or the state?
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Actaully I'd think that Cole's state is probably very natalist. Or it alternates between birth control and natalism in a complex and carefully controlled way. There'd probably be propaganda about reclaiming the "Lost Earth" or doing your part to grow the economy with more larval workers and consumers--and soldiers. Or there might propaganda the other way.
It really depends on how important it is the Imperial State to have a population in the billions again.
The stuff in Neutropolis aside, it might be that Cole's state is very pro-green and might think that Earth's population is enough, provided that everyone, globally, has about the same standard of living.
On another hand, Cole may want to have control over heroes whose powers derive from mutation. He'd probably encourage mutants to register and have kids. There might even be some dark science projects to intentionally grow and raise mutants.
A good example to think of here is probably Singapore.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
5) What effect, if any, has all of this had on ethical/social things such as dating and marriage? Is being LGBT frowned upon due to the critially low human population, or is it encouraged as a form of population control? How close are family ties?
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See, that's the scary part. Cole and his crew have the benefit of history. They know all the reasons why the Soviets, Italy's Fascists, Marcos, Pinochet, etc. etc. failed. They may really want to build a perfect state and are willing to wait and be very subtle indeed to achieve that goal.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Are there any languages besides (what is presumably) english?
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However, in an effort to homogenize and create a true global culture and to capitalize on the global spirit of humanity fighting off a common enemy, steady and patient efforts to favor only one language, probably English would be supported.
Other languages wouldn't be repressed insofar as they are not used to foment reaction against the State. English would be declared the official language of Earth. All educational institutions would only use English. Literature in other languages would probably be taxed if it's not actively subversive and destroyed if it was. All economic institutions would be required to only use English. All official and governmental business would be conducted in English and so on. Informal institutions like schools would to teach other languages wouldn't be repressed but would be taxed and subjected to benign neglect.
It would probably an awful world to live in if you were a Latin scholar or wanted to restore lost Native American languages.
I think Cole's state would scrupulously avoid having its repression take on an ethnic character. A sort of melting pot mentality would be encouraged all the while forces that would encourage diversity would be neglected and left to wither away with older generations.
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I don't know if Cole's state would be entirely against religion either. They'd probably be very much in favor of the caesaropapism of some Christian churches or the State Shintoist practices of Tojo's Imperial Japan. The state would probably be very friendly with the elites of large established religions (Quietly assassinating those that don't cooperate.). Humanity is predisposed to inventing new religions all the time, these aborning cults would be watched closely. (Psychic police makes this pretty easy actually.)
You'd have a kind of freedom of conscience but there would be clear limits. If your religion causes you to question certain state practices, sorry, you're not long for Cole's Earth.
I think it would be an uneasy and complicated truce. Cole wants to shape humanity into something perfect, yet he also wants to maintain control in the present. Repressing a bunch religious dissenters would be counterproductive in the long run if most of what they say is harmless.
Or maybe Cole is more subtle than we give him credit for. Maybe he thinks diversity is a good thing, within broad limits. Maybe he and his clique are just trying to experiment to slowly perfect a very subtle and perfect form of control over the diverse and quivering mass of craziness that is humanity.
Maybe all the obvious and heavy handed attempts at control in the present city are just them slowly working the bugs out.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
I'd disagree with the no internet thing. In one of the Arcs, you speak to a seer picking up background thought. One of the things said is:
"But Mom, I don't want to log onto school today, me and Johnny have almost levelled up in Guardians of Praetoria."
It seems that schooling is done via telecommuting, and there's MMORPGs.
Regarding Television channels, I'm of the mind set that there's several Total Praetoria Network channels. TPN News presenting the authorative word from the Administration, TPN1 with popular programming such as Blue and Gold (A Police drama show that Warrent's guest appeared on), TPN2 might have Cole approved historical/factual programs, TPN3, so forth.
From badge information, there are other city states, colonies and places that supplies are shipped out to. Parents raise children from information and NPC chatter in arcs, there's likely to be state orphanages though for those who lost their parents due to the Devouring Earth/Terrorists and other such circumstances.
Regarding other languages, seeing as Praetoria became something of a refuge for dispersed people from the word over, I'd imagine that while English is the 'state language', other worldly languages still exist. One of my characters is very much intent on keeping Chinese culture, language and history alive, another speaks Spanish and Modern Standard Arabic, in addition to English. One speaks English and German.
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Already using that! |
Originally Posted by Zortel
there's likely to be state orphanages though for those who lost their parents due to the Devouring Earth/Terrorists and other such circumstances.
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Kinetite was brought up at a state orphanage, so has Cole propaganda drummed in to her, even though she joined the resistance.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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There patently obviously is an Internet of some sort, but it's very heavily monitored.|
Originally Posted by Zortel
I'd disagree with the no internet thing.
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| It seems that schooling is done via telecommuting, and there's MMORPGs. |
Religion... lot of people actually seem to swear by Cole.
The assumption that Praetoria fits into the schema of typical Dystopian or real-world dictatorships is faulty. There's a lot of evidence that it doesn't.
If anything, it's a mixture of a vast number of fictional societies. No one's yet mentioned Brave New World (I think); the Praetorian populace are drugged to keep them happy after all.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
On the subject of religion, the Emperor is a Physical god that saved humanity. He seems to neither encourage nor discourage worship of him, and a lot of citizens that would normally be agnostic probably do so.
Partly due to Political Correctness needs in the game, there seem to be no organized rules for worshipping Cole. An interesting source of fics might be competing dogmas that worship or demonize him in the literal sense.
Which also begs the question of what that means for other Incarnates (since apparently Hamidon is one: probably an Incarnate of Gaia or perhaps even Uranus).
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Okay, lots of banal entertainment, possibly some that pushes the envelope but none that truly challenges things.
Which makes me wonder if Fascism is subtly praised by the regime, or demonized as we do in RL? Maybe the ultimate villains rather than Communists or Fascists in literature are Anarchists, Hippies, and Terrorists?
I do beleive there are other city-states besides Mega City- er, I mean Praetoria 
, but Praetoria proper is presumably the largest and most developed (although it may not be the only one with 'first world' economy and technology. It also implies that more distant cities may be less worshipful of the regime although they seem to basically function under its' rules.
I get the impression that there are probably a lot less than a billion humans worldwide, but that there may be as many as hundreds of millions.
I wonder what is the smallest worldwide population necessary to support a 'first world' city? Tens of millions?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
The actual population required to support Preatoria City is much lower then you'd expect, given thier tech level,a fter all you've got hordes of cheap robotic labour and vast anti-matter reactors providing power after all.
Short of the devs giving us more info, my personal feeling is that the entire world population of Praetoria is down to a few dozen million at the very most.
Praetoria city just isn't that big as cities go, and it's the largest city left.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
Oh yes, there is a global computer network but it's probably all a controlled "walled garden" by one or a small group of ISPs and heavily monitored by the state. Any form of decentralization would be discouraged. Unauthorized peer-to-peer file sharing is probably just the start of things that can get you into trouble.|
Originally Posted by Ravenswing
There patently obviously is an Internet of some sort, but it's very heavily monitored.
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On the plus side there probably isn't much spam, worms, social engineering or other nefarious activities going on. And the bandwidth speeds are probably even faster than ours.
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
The assumption that Praetoria fits into the schema of typical Dystopian or real-world dictatorships is faulty. There's a lot of evidence that it doesn't.
If anything, it's a mixture of a vast number of fictional societies. No one's yet mentioned Brave New World (I think); the Praetorian populace are drugged to keep them happy after all. |
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
An interesting source of fics might be competing dogmas that worship or demonize him in the literal sense.
Which also begs the question of what that means for other Incarnates (since apparently Hamidon is one: probably an Incarnate of Gaia or perhaps even Uranus). |
And in the CoH background it is fact that magic, psychic energy, spirits and gods (Or beings that claim they are such.) of various kinds exist.
I recall that in the Death of Superman story arc in DC, there was a growing cult that expected him to raise from the dead after his defeat. They later turned out to be right, which only reinforced his mystique. There's probably a lot of similar feeling surrounding Cole that is not as actively discouraged as it is around Prime Earth's Statesman.
Looking to real world examples, Imperial Rome was very eclectic and syncretic about religion except in a few very key ways--which later on caused them some trouble with the Jews in Palestine and later still with the Christians. I think Cole's state would follow the historical example of Rome or Imperial China--as long as citizens follow the laws and their spiritual practices don't contradict the laws, what you believe is your business.
Anyway, propaganda efforts to demonize and mythologize Hamidon would probably strongly encouraged. This is doesn't directly deify Cole but it might do so indirectly. (How Machiavellian!)
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Which makes me wonder if Fascism is subtly praised by the regime, or demonized as we do in RL? Maybe the ultimate villains rather than Communists or Fascists in literature are Anarchists, Hippies, and Terrorists?
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This might be easy to do. Who knows how many historical records were lost in the chaos of the Hamidon Wars?
I think the Ministry of Information would spend most of its time demonizing the Resistance and Hamidon rather than invoking past history, even if fictionalized history. This keeps the fear level high, which is good for control, and keeps the masses focused.
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Short of the devs giving us more info, my personal feeling is that the entire world population of Praetoria is down to a few dozen million at the very most.
Praetoria city just isn't that big as cities go, and it's the largest city left. |
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
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Yeah, there are other settlements, but from my reading, they were restarted AFTER the Hamidon Wars, with settlers from Praetoria City. Cole's utopia is the largest city left.
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Originally Posted by synthozoic
I agree that humanity has been scaled back to the low tens of millions but the impression I get from the bios and history on the GR site is that there are other regions elsewhere in the world that were restored and brought under control. Cole's empire is global even if all the game action takes place in imperial capital, Nova Praetoria. |
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
There is at least one dialogue example of someone saying "By Cole..." So at least some of the population sees him as a godlike figure, which is fair, since he is. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Partly due to Political Correctness needs in the game, there seem to be no organized rules for worshipping Cole.
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I suspect that Praetoria has a considerable illusion of freedom. So, for example, the Internet appears to be quite open, but is actually massively monitored. Consider it as a form of honey trap; give people the illusion of freedom and then lynch them when they overstep the mark.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Concerning other cities in Praetorian Earth:
It is true that there is a New Vegas mentioned in that arc. There is also a New Orlando mentioned in the Loyalist Powers arc in Imperial City.
What the devs would have to do, in order for us to just KNOW, would be to release a Praetorian Earth map of the entire Praetorian world (not just a map of Praetoria City!) Since Vegas and Orlando seem to have been rebooted, what other large, populated cities have done so? I for one would love to know.
I'd also like to bring up something else: Eventually, the Roman Empire was divided into the Eastern Empire and Western Empire. With a global empire, Cole's administration faces numerous tasks, obstacles and potential roadblocks. Since Tyrant has apparently killed the only other person in Praetoria that could've truly posed a substantial threat to his reign (Stefan Richter aka Lord Recluse), what if the devs introduced someone else with an incarnate background into Praetoria (not likely to ever happen btw ...)? What if, secretly, Richter survived Cole's murderous intent...and escaped into the depths of Europe or Asia...we could be faced with a split Praetorian Earth: A western and eastern empire...
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I think it pretty unlikely that Cole would be worrying about Primal Earth if he hadn't conquered all of Praetorian Earth. He'd be busy working on crushing the last of the opposition before taking on another front.|
Originally Posted by Kyzock
What if, secretly, Richter survived Cole's murderous intent...and escaped into the depths of Europe or Asia...we could be faced with a split Praetorian Earth: A western and eastern empire...
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Fighting 2 wars is stupid, and Cole isn't stupid.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Ok, having just completed the Power Loyalist arc of missions, and without droping any spoliers, if you want a picture of the state of the Praet goverment do this path. it also gives you a clear idea of Cole's current state of mind.
..and to be honest i think it makes FFM's above staement redundant.
I just read yours and FFM's comments. I don't think it matters which terminal mission you do (I've done both the Warden and Responsibility end points, on one character) and Cole isn't stupid, he's just amazingly power-hungry and just a bit off his trolley (though nowhere near as bonkers as Mother).
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Stupid != crazy.
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Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
Ok, having just completed the Power Loyalist arc of missions, and without droping any spoliers, if you want a picture of the state of the Praet goverment do this path. it also gives you a clear idea of Cole's current state of mind.
..and to be honest i think it makes FFM's above staement redundant. |
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
True.
Cole is, however, planning to fight a war on two fronts. However:
1. He thinks he's going to win the new one without much of a fight.
2. There is always the possibility that the story that the outside world is a hell hole is nothing but a control measure.
Think about it. If you head off to the edge of the city, you get blasted by a sonic fence. Supposedly this is to stop you going out into such a dangerous place, but surely a big fence and a load of warning signs would do. After all, if it's really that dangerous out there, anyone stupid enough to go out wouldn't come back. Surely the guns should be pointing outward.
It could be a paradise out there. No war to fight.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
It is most certainly a paradise out there.
Eden, you might say.
The question is whether or not it is a paradise that is going to turn you into a DE or not.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I just wanted to start a discussion of what Praetorian society is like; how it is similar to and different from Paragon and RL.
Here are some of my thoughts, which are not heavily researched and may be wrong:
- Praetoria only really diverged greatly from Paragon history in the 70s due to the massive devastation of the world during the Hamidon Wars. So people older than that remember things that would be quite familiar to us: The Beatles, The movie Psycho, the Hippie Counterculture and the like.
- The Hamidon Wars devastated the earth and killed vast amounts of population and destroyed vast amounts of physical and social infrastructure. Phone systems and the Internet probably ceased to exist, leading to massive gaps in technological development due to a lack of records and intercommunication. Many cultural and leisure-based sports and arts probably ceased to exist, like the Olympics, Superbowl, and NASCAR. The UN and NATO may have been temporarily the primary sources of governance for a time.
- The Hamidon Wars probably saw the world's military using vast scorched earth policies to prevent the spread of spores. Interesting advances may have been made in both biology and the science of psionics to combat the menace, not to mention psychology. With plants being perceived as dangerous sources of likely infection, most people probably turned to meat only diets when possible.
- Those old enough to remember the Hamidon Wars are probably mostly military or political personnel (or were at the time). They probably were forced to see and do traumatic things in the course of the wars.
- After the Hamidon was defeated and contained, nascent Emperor Cole probably oversaw massive relocation efforts as vast areas of land were combed for survivors. The relocation of the bulk of the survivors to Nova Praetoria probably saw the end of most ethnic cultures; strange and inexplicable behaviors are probably a source of major suspicion. Many religions may have fallen by the wayside at this point.
- With the establishment of Nova Praetoria as the final bastion of mankind, there was apparently a vast resurgence of technology due primarily to the efforts of Antimatter and Neuron. With carte blanche to develop any tech that could help mankind survive, economical considerations were likely tossed to the wayside.
- Eventually there is enough wealth and leisure time for corporations and a proper economy to form, along with such frivolities as entertainment businesses and advertising. Nova Praetoria rises to the standard of living of a modern first world city.
Now some questions...just stuff to think about, since a lot of it probably hasn't been established in canon yet
1) Is there physical money in Praetoria, or are economical transactions electronic? If there is money, is it USA dollars or some other currency (perhaps based on ancient Roman currency)? Maybe there is no money per se, just allotments of daily necessities augmented by perks due to employer recommendations and the like (in which case barter would supplement the system).
2) How many channels on the TV? It being a police state, programs that challenge the government are not allowed (no Colbert Report), and most entertainment shows probably also are apolitical or praise the regime. Something like "Praetoria has Talent" probably exists, but Reality TV (with their inherently cynical view of life) probably don't. This immediately begs the question of whether books like 'Farenheit 451' even continue to exist in a controlled state.
3) Everyone with enhanced combat ability goes into Powers Division. So what does that say about sports?
4) With just about everyone crammed into a single city, what are the population controls? Does Enriche contain a birth control compound (or an anti-Viagra compound) or is there some sort of licensing or lottery process that controls who can have children? Are the children raised by parents or the state?
5) What effect, if any, has all of this had on ethical/social things such as dating and marriage? Is being LGBT frowned upon due to the critially low human population, or is it encouraged as a form of population control? How close are family ties? Are there any languages besides (what is presumably) english?
...all in all, just some rambling thoughts...
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!