Your observation is correct. There are no APPs for VEATs.
Ok thanks for clearing that up for me!
found this thread to necro (kind of, it's not really old) instead of starting a new one:
was any statement ever made about ever getting APPs?
Were the tanker sets considered broken for Veats?
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
I suspect VEATs did not get access to APPs to maintain some equivalence to HEATs. HEATs do not get access to either APPs OR PPPs.
Like HEATs, VEATs also have a larger selection of Powers than other ATs, and thus still have choices past 41. I'm guessing they were given access to the PPPs in the first place because they can run the missions, and in the context of the game lore it would make sense for the Patrons to grant them some sort of power if they chose to run that mission. They always had the option to go for more powers from their base or chosen branch, though. You might consider that their version of the APPs.
I highly doubt that VEATs will get APPs. We should be happy that VEATs can get patrons.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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That's kind of an interesting theory... Physical Perfection would be boss on a VEAT, and Fireball with their ranged modifier might be over kill. However, Ball Lightning is almost as good and that pool has two other AoEs, so perhaps not.|
Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
found this thread to necro (kind of, it's not really old) instead of starting a new one:
was any statement ever made about ever getting APPs? Were the tanker sets considered broken for Veats? |
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I suspect VEATs did not get access to APPs to maintain some equivalence to HEATs. HEATs do not get access to either APPs OR PPPs.
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It would be neat if the game at some point employed a wider array of possibilities. Like a Kheldian bonding with an already super being, or Arachnos putting a mutant whose latent powers haven't manifested yet into the Widow program. This would probably result in inspired powersets for other ATs though, rather than a change to the EATs. Of course, as it is you could make a Radiation Blaster and color the powers white and call it a special sort of Peace Bringer.
The 10 original ATs are all completely open ended. You can mix and match primaries and secondaries to your heart's content, with or without explanation. Your origin is not enforced, and so on. Since there's no restriction on "where your power come from," the epics are wide open.
Remember that VEATs have the largest base of powers to choose from as it is. That's the price you pay (i.e. balance) for restricted power sets.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
I think it's a theme thing (as others have said). Thematically the APPs represent extensions of your own skills while PPPs represent training and support from one of the Arachnos Patrons (although obviously people frequently chose to RP them as part of the character's own powers instead). The nature of the SoA's powers (being based on Arachnos training and equipment) mean that the Brute/Tanker APPs would not be thematically appropriate for them. The devs could theoretically make a couple of APPs that tie in with the SoA lore but I don't think there's a particularly huge need for them.
I guess we haven't had any confirmation one way or the other then?
I'd love to take the body/energy mastery set, and I'm of the opinion that more variety is always good, provided it doesn't break anything.
I'm not really convinced that APPs would be broken, though I'll grant that it isn't intuitively obvious that they're fine. Probably a question worrth asking at some point...
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
I must say that I'm hoping Kheldians get access to PPPs when some method is provided for gaining them on the hero side. Along with, hopefully, some Patrons that are more suited to the hero side. That way, again, the Kheldians will have the "core" of their powers from their being bonded with a Kheldian, but they will be able to "learn" the abilities taught to them by the Patrons.
Given that the whole idea behind the Ancillary Pools was to "balance out" the ATs, and provide them with capabilities that they didn't naturally have, the EATs don't really NEED them. EATs ARE balanced, by design, they have Melee, Ranged, Control and Buff/Debuff skills, and personal Defenses besides. Even Defenders and Corruptors, which come close to being as broad and adaptable as EATs, lack melee attacks. Which is why Defenders have a melee attack in their APPs. (As well as defenses, since they can lack personal defense despite being able to strongly buff the defense of their team)
Still, I think it would be NICE to have Patrons just because of their connection to the lore. SoA do not even get PPPs of their own, they use the Brute ones. Presumably because they have no need for any particular type of power to address their weaknesses.
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Peacebringers should get APPs and not the Patrons, so they can be the opposite of VEATs.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
That's kind of an interesting theory... Physical Perfection would be boss on a VEAT, and Fireball with their ranged modifier might be over kill. However, Ball Lightning is almost as good and that pool has two other AoEs, so perhaps not.
There's also a heavily implied "source" of power for all the EATs. This is why their origins are forced. For HEATs, the bonding with a Kheldian is the source of power. Since the Kheldian can't shoot fire, make ice storms, etc, they can't access epics. For VEATS the source is Arachnos training, so it makes sense that they can be trained/empowered by Arachnos officials. Again, they can't shoot fire, etc. It would be neat if the game at some point employed a wider array of possibilities. Like a Kheldian bonding with an already super being, or Arachnos putting a mutant whose latent powers haven't manifested yet into the Widow program. This would probably result in inspired powersets for other ATs though, rather than a change to the EATs. Of course, as it is you could make a Radiation Blaster and color the powers white and call it a special sort of Peace Bringer. The 10 original ATs are all completely open ended. You can mix and match primaries and secondaries to your heart's content, with or without explanation. Your origin is not enforced, and so on. Since there's no restriction on "where your power come from," the epics are wide open. Remember that VEATs have the largest base of powers to choose from as it is. That's the price you pay (i.e. balance) for restricted power sets. |
Saying "For HEATs, the bonding with a Kheldian is the source of power. Since the Kheldian can't shoot fire, make ice storms, etc, they can't access epics." answered exactly WHY you should be able to.
Kheldians are pure ENERGY beings. Kinetic energy being the force behind Hot and Cold, since molecules need energy to move or a lack there of to freeze. Energy is the driving force behind Electricity due to Electrons. You see what I'm getting at?
Cold is essentially the lack of energy, which is why I could consider just that being unaccessible to the HEATs.
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That would certainly make ITF interesting, if all of a sudden all the Novas and Dwarfs were shooting off cold and fire attacks, whether they were Bright or Dark of course.|
Originally Posted by Bringer_NA
Peacebringers should get APPs and not the Patrons, so they can be the opposite of VEATs.
Saying "For HEATs, the bonding with a Kheldian is the source of power. Since the Kheldian can't shoot fire, make ice storms, etc, they can't access epics." answered exactly WHY you should be able to. Kheldians are pure ENERGY beings. Kinetic energy being the force behind Hot and Cold, since molecules need energy to move or a lack there of to freeze. Energy is the driving force behind Electricity due to Electrons. You see what I'm getting at? Cold is essentially the lack of energy, which is why I could consider just that being unaccessible to the HEATs. |
But I don't see the devs using a rudimentary understanding of how different forms of energy are related to change HEATs. If they did, the logical conclusion would be Fire/ blasters could shoot Electricity even if they didn't take /Electric and so on. There's nothing to suggest Kheldians are more powerful than old fashion super heroes, nor that they have more control over energy in general.
Kheldians have a "solar power" motif, hence their powers incorporate types of stars and other solar entities. The implication is they use "light" powers (and Nictus in contrast have "shadow" powers). The ability to create or remove electromagnetic radiation does suggest that a Kheldian could produce fire, and so on, but not in a usable way. The reduction in damage for a Kheldian "fire" attack to make any sense would be so low that no body would use it. For electricity, it'd be even worse.
All that aside, there's nothing to suggest that Kheldians or any other AT have more control over the energy they produce than they already do. Here in the real world, people produce a lot of heat energy that's just released into the air. It's not like we could decide to redirect that heat in a new way to voluntarily set fire to objects. There's no reason to think Kheldians could reform the energy they produce now in a different manner.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
The CoH terminology categorizes Energy and Negative Energy as energy effects, while Fire and Cold are elemental effects. You do not heat something up with Fire, you cause it to begin combusting, which is why Fire does DoT. A chemical reaction starts which is independent of the energy put into it.
Likewise, Cold is not necessarily the absense of energy, it is typically water, frozen into a frost-like state. This causes hypothermia, and can also be used as a defense, since it can form a shell which has to be chipped away before you can damage what is under it.
Heck, even Negative Energy is not merely the absense of energy, but in game lore appears to be an extradimensional force that devours energy, like a sort of spiritual black hole. It feeds most strongly on life energy, which is something that can't really be categorized.
Somewhat along these lines, I have a concept for an EM/Willpower werewolf I have in which his Energy Melee I role play as being intense heat generated by his muscles. It isn't Fire, because he doesn't set anyone on fire with it. It's just an intense heat that adds additional damage to his punches, and possibly "shocks" the victim's body.
Now, Sonic, that is categorized as energy, specifically the exact type of vibration you are talking about. So Kheldians COULD, I guess, get access to Sonic attacks. Or PBs anyway.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the brute APPs tested on widows/soldiers, but removed over concerns they didn't fit and weren't 'ready?' I seem to recall such happening in that crazy rush to get villain APPs out, but am not sure.
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But we, in the real world, are neither capable of "total" control of our bodies to reform our shapes nor capable of making kinetic energy to create a fire without an external tool. Though I'm not discussing some of the psychic "tests", which have possibly inconclusive evidence that we are capable of causing or removing the kinetic energy of a molecule. (Quantum mechanics) The idea of a Firestarter is pretty cool though, and although I'm not usually an RPer, that would be a good backstory behind a Fire/Psi Blaster or the likes.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
All that aside, there's nothing to suggest that Kheldians or any other AT have more control over the energy they produce than they already do. Here in the real world, people produce a lot of heat energy that's just released into the air. It's not like we could decide to redirect that heat in a new way to voluntarily set fire to objects. There's no reason to think Kheldians could reform the energy they produce now in a different manner.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The CoH terminology categorizes Energy and Negative Energy as energy effects, while Fire and Cold are elemental effects. You do not heat something up with Fire, you cause it to begin combusting, which is why Fire does DoT. A chemical reaction starts which is independent of the energy put into it.
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I'd have to agree with both of you though, if I were to consider the game mechanics my point would be nulled. While I don't always agree with the developers changes in real world scenarios, I also understand that players don't want to suffocate or drown, because of real world mechanics.
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Not that I recall.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the brute APPs tested on widows/soldiers, but removed over concerns they didn't fit and weren't 'ready?' I seem to recall such happening in that crazy rush to get villain APPs out, but am not sure.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Storyline wise VEATs get PPPs due to the story. But seriously why would you want more abilities, the PPPs pretty much suck for all villains? I would say there is only 1 power in all of them is even half way worth a damn and thats the Mu pet that heals and only doms get that. Besides there is hardly enough power picks to get most of the good stuff thats just within the powerset. So want issue 19 to hurry so I can get those 3 extra powers I couldnt get earlier. What folks should be campaining on is getting rid of that gawd damn backpack the spiders get even if one of your builds is crab. I refuse to go crab till they give an alternative to the pack.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Uhh. You do realize they buffed the hell out of most of the pools when they gave them a 5th power, right? I haven't seen people griping about PPPs since then. There are way better powers than the Mu Guardian nowadays.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Storyline wise VEATs get PPPs due to the story. But seriously why would you want more abilities, the PPPs pretty much suck for all villains?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Dark Obliteration + Gloom on a Widow is perfect for soloing TFs. Still working on my build, but with a little under half my necessary purples and non of my LoTGs, this Fort build is working...|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Uhh. You do realize they buffed the hell out of most of the pools when they gave them a 5th power, right? I haven't seen people griping about PPPs since then. There are way better powers than the Mu Guardian nowadays.
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As for my Night Widow build, no PPPs. Just say no, when you have 60%+ defense at all times and a full attack chain to boot.
Was looking at the new APP/PPPs on Paragon Wiki for GR (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/APP_Proliferation) and noticed that there was no info on VEAT APPs. Does this mean there will be no proliferation for them or will they mimic the brute pools as they are currently? Was just curious, there are some nice powers listed (energy mastery has some interesting looking prospects IMO).