In my opinion, no.
Defenders use both their primary and secondary with some power pools to be the most effective. Cutting off a Defender's blasting is like a tanker not taking attacks. They don't deal very much damage, but they have secondary effects that can help out the team and yourself survive. If you're looking from a strictly honest answer.
I mean, if I see an empath built as you described, /kick would probably make the best use of that build.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
Then which secondary would you suggest to be the most supportive? I really don't care for any sort of solo capabilities or damage output, as I am making this character strictly for grouping and support.
If you're planning to just support, then you are doing it wrong and will just give Defenders a bad name by reinforcing the beliefs of many Controller fans that we don't contribute.
If you insist on going this route, then Dark Blast is probably best, given that it has an immobilize, has a self-heal. and all but its targeted AoE (which just disorients) stacks on some -hit on the targets.
I'd go Rad/Sonic myself.
With Sonic you get -Res (extra damage) along with a cone sleep, depending on your groups play style it can come in handy.
With Rad you get a heal, debuffs, AM, Slows, a rez, Exploding teammate corpses! you name it, and if you want a single target heal get the med pool as it seems that's all you want to do anyways, then put the heal on auto, put your brain on ice and play away.
Quote:
If you want to make a Pacifistic hero go right ahead. Powers are there to offer players flexibility or other players flexibility or the enemy a lack of. So decide on what you want to do. It's the players you meet ingames whose opinion of your playstyle that may matter more than some random person on another server on the forum.|
Originally Posted by Psyrpent
Are there viable builds out there that completely forgo the use of your secondary power set, and focus more on maximizing Empathy and investing heavily into power pools?
|
Empathy buffs people, you could say perhaps that as it is you provide fort you could go dark blast. I will say that AoEs of any secondary always look good to me, because if I am going to not be able to heal someone in the time it took me to attack then I rather atleast do some damage that hits 16 than a single target as it adds up more.
When people pay for my account and my time they can inform me on what concepts I'll have.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I don't think people are trying to tell Psyrpent how to play, so much as trying to warn him that this game really doesn't have a holy trinity.
In WoW, if you are the healer you really cannot afford to attack because 1) you don't want to draw aggro and 2) you may not have the mana left to heal if you do.
This is not the case in City of Heroes. Thanks to vigilance (endurance discount when allies are hurt) you will be able to heal even if you spend endurance on attacking, and healing doesn't generate aggro like it does in WoW, so with a good tank, there really won't be any risk of you getting attacked.
Therefore you can contribute the most to the team by attacking as well as supporting. If you take no powers from your secondary set, veteran players will tend to look down on you and snicker, but if that's how you want to play, for concept or other reasons, go for it! (On virtue you can probably get a pass by following New Dawn and claiming the character is a pacifist and didn't take attacks for RP reasons).
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
Blasts can draw aggro if the aggro isn't otherwise taken care of. Yes the holy trinity is complete balls here. Given that, why make a defender? Concept ofc. I'd go make a pacifist cos people told me not too XD
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
If you're going to skip your secondary powerset entirely, you'll find you can make a far more effective support character by creating an */empathy controller.
|
Originally Posted by Psyrpent
Are there viable builds out there that completely forgo the use of your secondary power set, and focus more on maximizing Empathy and investing heavily into power pools?
|
Quote:
Definitely go with Controllers. You'll heal a bit less but your primary will ensure better team-support.
|
Originally Posted by Happy_Thoughts
If you're going to skip your secondary powerset entirely, you'll find you can make a far more effective support character by creating an */empathy controller.
|
New Dawn's AoE concept is the exact reason I pick up AoEs more than ST if builds are really heavy. With that concept, I picked Psychic Blast for Psionic Tornado. Damage, soft control (-recharge and knock up), and forced feedback proc (+recharge meaning faster buffs). I tend to use Psi Tornado and Psychic Scream more than I do any other power (because of Fort/RAs/AB's longer recharges). Toss a couple of ST to fill in any voids. Anyhow, that's the play style I chose and was quite happy with.
Spine, I think happy was saying if you're going to forget your secondary, forgetting empath on a controller is better than skipping your blast on a defender. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it and laughed at the truth of it.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
Quote:
Yes, you can make a perfectly viable build that neglects your secondary. However a such a character is less useful to a team than one who uses all of the tools at his disposal and as such it will not endear you to plenty of people (admittedly there are people who feel that ALL defenders should play that way). Defenders are not designed as a non-combat AT they are designed as a hybrid AT that provides buffs/debuffs along with damage. As such a Defender who blasts alongside buffing/debuffing is bringing everything they can to the team while a Defender that only buffs/debuffs is not being all that they can be.|
Originally Posted by Psyrpent
Are there viable builds out there that completely forgo the use of your secondary power set, and focus more on maximizing Empathy and investing heavily into power pools?
|
Personally, the way I look at it is that at the end of the day the only thing a team really needs is damage. Everything else is simply about allowing people to deliver more damage or increasing their safety while doing so. So if you aren't delivering damage then you aren't really helping.
Finally I will note for the "pure Empath" build is that beyond a certain point you're really just taking filler powers to avoid attacks. The pool powers are useful in moderation but they are intended to round out a build, not be it's focus. Things like the Stealth/TP combo are useful to the team but they are the sort of powers that are really more useful on a team member with more build flexibility (for example my Blaster has Cloaking Device and Recall Friend, my Scrapper has Recall Friend but not perfect stealth and relies on high defense to "stealth"). Similarly with Leadership (a pool I try to take on all my defenders) most defenders can fit at least some of it in while still maintaining a decent attack chain (a Dual Pistol defender is probably the only one where I think I'd have trouble doing that).
If you want a more support character I would recommend an Empathy/Dark/Dark. You should still slot your attacks for damage but Dark Blast is rather control heavy for a blast set so you're defendering while blasting. Taking Dark Mastery as your epic gives you Oppressive Gloom to allow you even more control and Soul Drain will help your damage if you have to skimp a bit on damage slotting (don't rely on it for all your damage slotting though).
EDIT: I suggest you read this thread in the controller section:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=230039
Someone was pointing out that from a team point of view Controllers bring as much or more damage than Defenders along with buffs that are almost as good and more security through the use of controls. While there were viewpoints on both sides the general viewpoint was that yes, at higher levels Controllers are bringing slightly more to the team although once you stack more than 3 or 4 support characters it doesn't really matter what AT they are. However given that the main reason to play a Defender is that they do play rather differently to Controllers with blast attacks as opposed to control attacks and solo better at lower levels.
Useful pool powers to complement Empathy:
Leadership (all of them), Grant Invis, Hasten to make your buffs come up faster.
Pools not to take:
Medicine. Its redundant and inferior to Empathy.
Blast sets to look into:
Dark Blast, slotted for -To Hit, allows you to spam -30% To Hit on enemies just using Tenebrous Tentacles and Nightfall. This will make your whole team much harder to hit.
So if you want to defend your team better, go this route.
A /Emp Controller will probably give even more defense though, through their controls.
Sonic Blast gives -20% Res on a group with Howl, and much more single target -Res in the single target blasts. This will really help your team take down hard targets like AVs. Go this route if you want to support your team's offensive capabilities. You can't slot your blasts for extra -Res, but you can slot them for recharge to stack more -Res.
Sonic Blast also has an AoE sleep, useful for when a secodn spawn gets aggro'd, so it adds some defence there.
A /Emp Controller can't do this.
In both cases, beware of aggro you may draw, as you can't defend yourself very well with Empathy.
And if you're going to do this, don't be afraid to stick a damage enhancement or two in those blasts when you get the spare slots. You'll be using them anyway, and every little bit helps.
Quote:
Sorry, I realize I was unclear. In WoW you can draw massive aggro while only healing, so attacking just means that you can heal less before you pull the aggro. Yes, attacking can obviously create aggro, but you are not dealing with the same tight margins as in WoW.
|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Blasts can draw aggro if the aggro isn't otherwise taken care of.
|
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
Quote:
You want an illusion/empathy controller then, imho.
|
Originally Posted by Psyrpent
Then which secondary would you suggest to be the most supportive? I really don't care for any sort of solo capabilities or damage output, as I am making this character strictly for grouping and support.
|
Quote:
Happy was actually saying the opposite. |
Originally Posted by StormyDarkness
Spine, I think happy was saying if you're going to forget your secondary, forgetting empath on a controller is better than skipping your blast on a defender. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it and laughed at the truth of it.
|
If the original poster wants support and empathicalness to be his main thing, to the point of purposefully ignoring his entire defender secondary, then he might be happier (and certainly more effective in his chosen specialty of team safety) going the */empathy controller route.
That said, giving it some thought I can't say that your statement is incorrect either!
Quote:
It really depends on what you find more interesting.|
Originally Posted by Psyrpent
Then which secondary would you suggest to be the most supportive? I really don't care for any sort of solo capabilities or damage output, as I am making this character strictly for grouping and support.
|
I took Empathy/Psy/Psy because it has several control-like powers. Subdue will immobilize a mob and prevent it from running up to you or a team mate. Telekinetic Blast has excellent knockback, which is good for getting mobs off yourself and other squishies. Will Domination sleeps the mob, which doesn't last long in a big fight, but it will stop them cold and turn off nasty toggles on sorcerers, Nerva LTs, etc. All of these also do moderate damage as well as the control effects.
Scramble Thoughts is a stun. Dominate (from the Psychic epic) is a good hold. Mass Hypnosis is an area sleep, which is excellent when you see a second spawn coming at (ambush or if someone accidentally aggroes a nearby spawn). Psychic Scream is an AoE attack that has -62% recharge debuff, so it slows mobs way down.
You can also take the Leadership pool (Maneuvers and Assault are good, Tactics is somewhat less useful these days when everyone has IOs with acc bonuses. I never take Vengeance because I don't plan on letting my team die.
I also have a Illusion/Empathy controller, which is fun.
But I actually find Empathy the least interesting defender set (I started out with it). I think Radiation, Kinetics, Dark, and Storm are all more fun, and more useful in general. Debuffing the enemies is probably more important that buffing your team because debuffers affect all the mobs. Empaths can only buff a few (usually 3-4) team members with Fortitude and Adrenalin Boost. An empath increases the damage for only half a full team, while a debuffer is increasing damage for the whole team. Put two or three debuffers on a team and the spawns melt like butter.
1) Happy, I'm glad I was wrong yet right. >.>
2)
Quote:
I believe you'll get a general response of yes, yet no on this, as your point has some flaws.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
But I actually find Empathy the least interesting defender set (I started out with it). I think Radiation, Kinetics, Dark, and Storm are all more fun, and more useful in general. Debuffing the enemies is probably more important that buffing your team because debuffers affect all the mobs. Empaths can only buff a few (usually 3-4) team members with Fortitude and Adrenalin Boost. An empath increases the damage for only half a full team, while a debuffer is increasing damage for the whole team. Put two or three debuffers on a team and the spawns melt like butter.
|
Most AoE debuffs have the potential to effect the entire mob, but with most being an accuracy or a low(ish) radius, it's not a given that you'll in fact debuff the entire mob. Some are only ST debuffs (Poison is the main offender in this, but some sets have their powers) yet potent.
On the non-empathy side of buffing (Sonic/FF/Cold), they give a non-purple patch buff that allows them more survivability that's easy to deal out to the entire team with less than 30 seconds of focusing on buffing, assuming that you're on an 8 man team. Thus, because of the lack of resistances for upper level enemies, I believe buffing is technically better.
On the Empathy side of things, RAs do effect the entire team and fortitude should be prioritized to the team's needs. If the tanks is dying due to lack of defense, forting him would be the first priority. Then people who get themselves in trouble or people dealing damage and so forth. There's many ways to look at how to prioritize fortitude, as long as the team is alive, enemies are dying, and you're using your buffs, I don't particularly care. If fortitude could effect every team mate, then the strength of the buffs would be lowered and being given 3 heals would become silly. Thermal at least has two heals and two resist, not defense, shields.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
Quote:
A compromise could be to take a debuff heavy secondary, not slot for damage, and slot for debuffs, crowd control, and/or end drain instead. In no particular order, /Psy, /Dark, /Sonic, /Ice, and /Elec are the sets I think you can pull off an "attacking pacifist" theme with.|
Originally Posted by Psyrpent
completely forgo the use of your secondary power set
|
Psy: Slot Mental Blast for recharge, spam for -recharge debuff. Slot Psychic Scream the same as MB, except add range. Slot Psionic Tornado the same as MB, except add knockup for optional lulz. Slot Subdue, Will Domination, Scramble Thoughts, Psychic Wail for mez duration. Skip Telekinetic Blast, Psionic Lance.
Dark: Slot Dark Pit in the usual way. Slot friggin' everything else for ToHit debuff. Also slot TT for root duration. Skip Gloom, Moonbeam, Life Drain.
Sonic: If -resistance debuffs suit your concept, slot Shriek for recharge and spam. Slot Screech and Dreadful Wail the same way as Shriek, except add stun duration. Slot Howl the same way as Shriek, except add range. Slot Siren's Song the usual way. Slot Shockwave for accuracy and range. Skip Scream, Shout.
Ice: Slot for debuffs, hold duration, move speed slow strength.
Elec: Slot for end drain (which also boosts recovery debuff strength and drain-back recovery), hold duration.
Special bonus for you! Some notable procs for an "attacking pacifist":
Ranged Damage: Tempest: Chance for End Drain
Ranged Damage: Devastation: Chance to Hold
Holds: Basilisk's Gaze: Chance for -Recharge
Holds: Lockdown: Chance for Mag 2 Hold
Immobilize: Debilitative Action: Chance for Stun
Immobilize: Gravitational Anchor: Chance for Hold (Unique)
Knockback: Force Feedback: Chance for +Rech
Sleep: Induced Coma: Chance for Recharge Slow
Sleep: Fortunata Hypnosis: Chance for Placate (Unique)
Stuns: Razzle Dazzle: Chance for Immobilize
Stuns: Absolute Amazement: Chance for ToHit Debuff (Unique)
Defense Debuff: Achilles' Heel: Chance for Resistance Debuff
Endurance Modification: Energy Manipulator: Chance to Disorient
Slow Movement: Pacing of the Turtle: Chance for Recharge Slow
To Hit Debuff: Dark Watcher's Despair: Chance for Recharge Slow
I'd suggest for efficiency that you go Emp/Ice, Emp/Psi or Emp/Elec over a */Emp Controller only if you want to slot and use the AoE damage.
A Controller primary will do a much better job of controlling than a Defender secondary with controls in it.
But, if you want the Empathy powers earlier, or don't want a pet following you around (and they can be very concept-breaking) a Defender with a control secondary will definitely do the job, just not as well.
Sorry, I assumed from the first post that the OP was interested in a pacifist concept, but the OP's second post reveals some problems.
Quote:
1) Unlike some "talent" based MMOs, you do not gain any significant advantage by weakening part of your build and attempting to specialize in another part. You'll end up being just as good as everyone else in the part you tried to specialize in, and worthless in the part you gave up. Make a "pure" build only for a roleplaying concept, and if you do, be aware that you will face a longer, steeper learning curve to get the same payoff. If you play a "pure" build expecting to get a game advantage, you will be disappointed. Unless you only compare yourself to the other gimps who expected the same thing.|
Originally Posted by Psyrpent
Then which secondary would you suggest to be the most supportive? I really don't care for any sort of solo capabilities or damage output, as I am making this character strictly for grouping and support.
|
2) Damage is support, too. In teams, you are expected to use all your powers to the team's advantage. You get 24 powers. Many of those will be damage powers. All four buff/debuff archetypes have an inherent power that increases damage. Don't tie one hand behind your back thinking it makes the other hand stronger. Again, doesn't work that way in this game.
3) No archetype in this game gets by on primary alone. Secondaries are not necessarily worse than primaries; in fact, they're often better than primaries. The only hard coded difference between primary and secondary powers is that primary powers become available at earlier levels, secondary powers become available at later levels. Some blasters come close to not wanting or needing a secondary, but defenders, definitely no. Good teams simply go faster, with no drawbacks, when defenders spread their blasts around, melting down life bars and sticking debuffs. The only time to hold back is if the controller and tanker aren't doing their jobs and you're taking more aggro than your Regeneration Aura can handle, but such is a rare corner case, because most controllers are either mezzing everything or out-DPSing you, most tankers are good about holding aggro, and Regeneration Aura is awesome.
Quote:
Illusion/Empathy is probably the best spec for this playstyle. Your heals are slightly weaker and you get powers slightly later, but you will fit the role you are trying to achieve much better.|
Originally Posted by Psyrpent
Then which secondary would you suggest to be the most supportive? I really don't care for any sort of solo capabilities or damage output, as I am making this character strictly for grouping and support.
|
If you play Defender, you really need to crack out the damage and the AoE's.
I'm going to take a different tack on answering this question.
OP, what pool powers were you planning on taking to support the team. Leadership - sure. Haste really helps since your best powers are on a long recharge. But that's about it.
You aren't going to tank with an emp defender, so provoke is right out.
Grant invis is OK - but not really. No one is going to rely on an invis from someone else if they are ghosting a mission and invis has limited uses apart from that.
There are really not many non-self buffs in the pools.
Medicine is a total waste for an Emp. You have to try really hard to find uses for absorb pain, let alone a slower, weaker, interruptable heal. There is nothing that the medicine pool can do that waiting that half second for heal other/clear mind to come back won't do better.
You might like travel powers, but they don't really support the team at all.
Even if you aren't excited about your secondary, in terms of support, it's likely better than the dregs available from the pools.
Tell us what you want from a pool, and we'll point to a secondary that likely does the same thing better.
Quote:
^aka "pure empath"|
Originally Posted by Psyrpent
Are there viable builds out there that completely forgo the use of your secondary power set, and focus more on maximizing Empathy and investing heavily into power pools?
|
my vote is emp/sonic or emp/dark.
sonic to help with bosses.. dark for set mule's and immob's.
perma jump is ---> /up 1
The OP said which powerset is good for 100% support build?
Group oriented + support /= empathy alone. 
Not a knock to empaths, but I believe he can make a better support char than just empathy/some underslotted blast, even if it's setup for debuffs.
I have great fun with my ice/cold controller. 100% support team char.
Are there viable builds out there that completely forgo the use of your secondary power set, and focus more on maximizing Empathy and investing heavily into power pools?