IMO the way things are now the best option would be to admit defeat and roll Defenders/Corruptors together and make the only difference between them the power order. Give each the others benefits (which means Defenders with Corruptor damage and Scourge and Corruptors with Defender buffs). Drop the ridiculous Defender "Vigilance" ability altogether as it would no longer be needed, and barely is now in any case.
As for Controllers, my nerf-sense has been going off for months. I'm not sure where it will come from or what it will be but it's pretty much gauranteed to happen if the game lasts long enough. Containment is the root of it, really. If it were me I'd be looking at making Containment damage like Scourge (I think?) or a proc, which is to say, resistable but does not benefit from damage buffs. The math on Kinetics reveals Controllers are getting an absolutely insane damage bonus because Containment doubles the base bonus while dodging the ED cap. That *might* be ok on a Scrapper because their double damage ability isn't reliable, but less so on a Controller.
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I'm not invalidating my argument at all. My argument is that controllers don't stack well because of their primary powersets and you point out that some secondaries don't stack. After a certain point more control just isn't needed nor is buffing. If a mob is locked down even an AV once its permalocked no addtional control effects matter. If it takes 4 controllers to acheive permalock that 5th isn't making lockdown any better. If it takes 4 controllers to acheive buff/debuff caps then that 5 controller adds absolutely nothing in terms of buff/debuffing and outside of fire, illusion or AOE epics does not add all that much additional and meaningful damage. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Your arguement is self destroying since controllers have defender primaries as their secondaries. The various caps also make your arguement moot.
A single FF defender can keep the team at the defense soft cap. More defense doesn't make you any safer it's just a pad against debuffs. A controller can almost do this solo as well. Same goes for resistances your sonic/ can help you hit the hard cap on resistances when you have your own resistances. A single kin can cap damage, etc etc etc, The problem is that the controller can do it almost as well and can lock down the entire spawn on top of it. Controls DO stack where buffs and debuffs hit the caps. 2 controllers can alternate AoE controls and keep every thing locked down (some controllers with massive set bonuses can do this by them selves.) More controllers just make it better. Stacked mezzes lock down bosses, more stacked mezzes lock down EBs, yet more stacked mezzes lock down AVs even when triangles are up. The best a defender can do is reduce incoming damage to 95% controllers can make it 100%. |
When you look at the buff/debuffing control doesn't play well with much of it. -damage, +resistance, +defense, -acc, -end, +healing, +health regeneration. Those effects mean nothing when a mob his held. You don't take damage do you don't need to reduce incoming damage. They don't help to defeat that mob sooner, they don't keep you any safer. These are the effects that defenders leverage better then controllers because of the vary nature of control.
The effects that matters.. +damage, -defense, -resistance, +end recovery, +acc, -regen help you to defeat foes quicker. These are the effects that both ATs leverage and in specific cases (+damage, -resistance) controllers leverage better because of the nature of containment.
For a defender.. all effects matter and all effects keep you safer this means that various defenders are more likely to stack better then various controllers. If you have an FF/*, Sonic/*, and Emp/* defenders they stack better then a */FF, */Sonic, and */Emp controller as the control primary can negate the need for those secondaries.
If you have a Kin/*, Rad/*, Storm/* defender verses */kin, */Rad, */Storm controller both ATs make use of the effects but controllers make better use of them as they are safer to debuff mezzed foes and the +damage, -resistance of the powers aids containment better.
I like controllers, I like defenders. I'm not a numbers person but rather play by feel and the feel in my opinion is totally in favor of defenders while teaming. It has been my experience over the years and thousands of hours playing controllers that defenders just stack better then controllers.. unless you are building specifically towards controllers which stack well like Fire and Illusion.
The thing I dred most on a team is seeing another controller or any other kin while playing my Grav/kin main. If I'm the better player I negate the need for the other controller and the other kin. If they are the better player they negate the need for me. The team would always be better off dropping someone in favor of another character.
With my defenders I never run into that issue. Even if teaming with multiple same type buff/debuff defenders or same type buff/debuff controllers I know that I will always be able to leverage my secondary powerset to aid the team.
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There have been several threads on it in the defender forums.|
Originally Posted by Candlestick
I'm actually curious what you would recommend. At first thought, I wanted to add more damage, but then that would start making Defenders and Corrupters far to similar(And when Going Rogue hits, I would not be surprised to see Corrupters vastly outpopulating defenders)
The 1.25 modifier was just a simple thing I made up on the spot. I'm curious of any other solutions people have thought up for Defenders. |
The problem with boosting the primary is that it would, in most cases, be white noise. Forcefields, as an example, would just allow you to buff the team over the softcap.
Sonic would allow you to put even blasters and controllers over the resistance hard cap once they have their epic shields.
Kins can all ready keep an entire team at the damage cap, etc., etc., etc.
The other problem that the devs face fixing defenders is the disparity between mainly buffing primaries and debuffing primaries.
While solo a buffer loses all the benefits of the team buffing powers. The "fix" is going to the expense of creating a "solo" build for the buffer. This is not required for the debuffer who has the full range of powers available solo or teamed. The 30% damage boost while solo did nothing to alieviate this problem and may have actually exacerbated it.
As I have said in other threads when this came up, adding a buffable pet in either the inherent or the Epics would (mostly) solve this problem. It would allow the buffer to use their teammate only powers while solo, while adding only a tiny bit of damage provided by the pet to the debuffer's arsenal.
The defender needs a fix that is a true fix. Touching the primary won't really make defenders any better (well a bit perhaps but not to the extent that they need repaired.) That means that the fix needs to be something that works with the secondary instead of the primary.
The defender DPS could, for example, be fixed by increasing their global recharge slightly each time they activate a power from their primary or secondary power set. If the endurance decrease must be maintained to prevent violating the cottage rule it could be added to this mechanic. (ie: each time the defender activates a power it reduces the end cost of subsequently activated powers).
Vigilance could be a simple toggle that provides a 30% boost to damage while toggled on that switches to a 30% reduction in end costs while toggled off. Better yet it could be a slider that the defender can set to give what ever ratio of damage boost to end reduction that the player wants.
The biggest problem is that defenders are the only class that have/use buffs/debuffs that do not get an end cost free damage boosting mechanic built in.
Corruptors get scourge, Controllers get containment, Masterminds get the damage provided by their pets that never cost them a shred of end once they are cast.
Defenders just get ignored.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
You've destroyed your own arguement again here.....
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and here.........|
Originally Posted by Montaugh
After a certain point more control just isn't needed nor is buffing. If a mob is locked down even an AV once its permalocked no addtional control effects matter. If it takes 4 controllers to acheive permalock that 5th isn't making lockdown any better. If it takes 4 controllers to acheive buff/debuff caps then that 5 controller adds absolutely nothing in terms of buff/debuffing and outside of fire, illusion or AOE epics does not add all that much additional and meaningful damage.
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Originally Posted by Montaugh
The effects that matters.. +damage, -defense, -resistance, +end recovery, +acc, -regen help you to defeat foes quicker. These are the effects that both ATs leverage and in specific cases (+damage, -resistance) controllers leverage better because of the nature of containment.
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Containment and 8 controllers provides a huge synergy that 8 defenders lack. I have played on 8 man defender teams and on 8 man controller teams. 8 controllers always feel faster to me.
(By the way kinetics is a bad example to use. It is ridiculously overpowered for both defenders and controllers but the controller has an advantage that everything but a kin/dark defender lacks, the ability to easily keep an entire spawn grouped to maximize debuffs and AoE target based buffs, like fulcrum shift.)
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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I think it depends a lot on the player and the set. Most debuff defenders can solo reasonably well, not as well as controllers due to the lower damage mitigation but well enough (Traps Defenders in particular make excellent soloers but Traps is an edge case).|
Originally Posted by magicj
I really agree that defenders and controllers view teams differently, mostly out of need. Defenders tend to need teams more than controllers. When I team when playing my defender, I'm all about the team. When I team with my controller, I'm all about the team too, unless you get me into a mood, in which case I may leave the team without even saying goodbye.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
While solo a buffer loses all the benefits of the team buffing powers. The "fix" is going to the expense of creating a "solo" build for the buffer. This is not required for the debuffer who has the full range of powers available solo or teamed. The 30% damage boost while solo did nothing to alieviate this problem and may have actually exacerbated it.
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Don't ever need a vast amount of control and one would rather not have to wait 20 + mins for a controller who is available and willing to team. I generally go for random people within my level range.|
Originally Posted by Wiggz
...which is why I'm posting in the Controller forum rather than the Defender forum.
My first characters were defenders and some are still among my favorites - the new color options have allowed 'Bubblegum Pink', a FF/Sonic to fulfill my manga festish quite admirably -but lately I've been sporadically leveling three different */Rad controllers (Ill/Rad, Earth/Rad and Plant/Rad) and have gotten all of them into the high 20's or low 30's and I from that experience I have to ask - why would a team EVER want a defender over a controller? |
I've seen Mind/Emps control and do the job of an empath defender (who didn't proactively buff) but it really cuts into the Mind/Emps time. The empath did blast but they got lost in their attack chain that much a blaster would of been better.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Why go a defender over troller only 1 reason for me dark miasma. Love it wish they would give it to trollers as a secondary.
I think it's mostly a matter of playstyle. If you want to buff/debuff and blast, you pick a defender. If you want to buff/debuff and control, you pick a controller. Also, I feel that defenders are more fun to play at the lower levels, especially solo or in small teams. I feel at 50, both are great and very synergistic. As to damage, most controllers really don't do great damage, some do, but I think all defenders do pretty good damage. Certainly they can be slotted to.
@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
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I think if/when the day comes they will reduce containment to 50% rather than 100%. They already have in pvp...
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
As for Controllers, my nerf-sense has been going off for months. I'm not sure where it will come from or what it will be but it's pretty much gauranteed to happen if the game lasts long enough. Containment is the root of it, really. If it were me I'd be looking at making Containment damage like Scourge (I think?) or a proc, which is to say, resistable but does not benefit from damage buffs. The math on Kinetics reveals Controllers are getting an absolutely insane damage bonus because Containment doubles the base bonus while dodging the ED cap. That *might* be ok on a Scrapper because their double damage ability isn't reliable, but less so on a Controller.
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They are welcome to roll back their mez duration and recharge nerfs when they do as that was the trade off. Or they could deal with how fulcrum shift works as I really don't think anyone is worried about controller damage except possibly with fulcrum shift.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
I think if/when the day comes they will reduce containment to 50% rather than 100%. They already have in pvp...
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@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
In short, there is no good reason to pick Defender over a Controller.
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In theory, yes... In practice...|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
A single FF defender can keep the team at the defense soft cap. More defense doesn't make you any safer it's just a pad against debuffs. A controller can almost do this solo as well.
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1) A single defender can only softcap if the rest of the team stay within the bubble all the time. Almost nobody does that for obvious reasons. (And let's not speak of those ninjas who somehow manage to ALWAYS be outside of LoS when re-bubbling time comes)
2) The nature of softcap being that it is, 33.4% a troller with Leadership has. aren't even close to softcap. And again, it's only 33.4% if everyone is within the bubble.
3) There's a little matter of bubblers themselves.
All this is excellently solved by a second FF defender/troller on the team. Two defs' small bubbles stack to nice 46% (not to mention end drain resist... Carnies? Lol. Malta? ROTFL.) they can softcap each other and well, team split at the wrong time isn't guaranteed faceplant.
Def+troller is still formidable, - although big bubbles (or just Maneuvers) are needed for softcap again, there are two of them, giving better coverage.
Was on a random PuG team lately with my FF/Ice. It was nice enough as it was, but when a Stone/FF joined we pretty much got godmode.
NO ONE'S life bar moved. EVER. I kid you not.
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I know how all this works of course. I have 3 FF defenders and 4 FF controllers.|
Originally Posted by 3dent
In theory, yes... In practice...
1) A single defender can only softcap if the rest of the team stay within the bubble all the time. Almost nobody does that for obvious reasons. (And let's not speak of those ninjas who somehow manage to ALWAYS be outside of LoS when re-bubbling time comes) 2) The nature of softcap being that it is, 33.4% a troller with Leadership has. aren't even close to softcap. And again, it's only 33.4% if everyone is within the bubble. 3) There's a little matter of bubblers themselves. All this is excellently solved by a second FF defender/troller on the team. Two defs' small bubbles stack to nice 46% (not to mention end drain resist... Carnies? Lol. Malta? ROTFL.) they can softcap each other and well, team split at the wrong time isn't guaranteed faceplant. Def+troller is still formidable, - although big bubbles (or just Maneuvers) are needed for softcap again, there are two of them, giving better coverage. Was on a random PuG team lately with my FF/Ice. It was nice enough as it was, but when a Stone/FF joined we pretty much got godmode. NO ONE'S life bar moved. EVER. I kid you not. |
In regards to 1 - you are of course talking about squishies being on the team. It isn't hard at all for a squishy to come to the team with 10-12 ish % defense of their own either from a few small set bonuses or just from having it in a power of their own like manuvers, hover, and combat jumping. Tanks and scrappers are even more likely to have some defense. So unless you are only teaming with a random PUG full of newbs chances are your controller is going to be all you need to keep the team at the soft cap and the defender is only providing a pad against debuffs not the huge difference you are describing.
In regards to 2 see my response to 1 above.
In regards to 3 all of my FF defenders are soft capped to 2 positions (ranged and AoE) and have 32-35% defense to melee. If for some reason I need to go into melee a single small purple insp is all I need to ensure my safety for up to 60 seconds. All of my /FF controllers are soft capped to range, at 32-35% to AoE and 28-30ish to melee. They avoid melee by hovering (except for my Fire/FF that uses smoke to make up the difference).
The ACTUAL difference between the 2 on teams is miniscule and consists mainly of how far over the soft cap the rest of the team is. Nothing more.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Honestly, it seems to me that the very fact that there's this much debate about it- and on the Controller boards, no less- suggests that there might be less difference than some think.
My gut instinct on this- beyond what I posted last time- is that while it may be possible for Controllers to optimize better than 'fenders, one runs into the human factor. That is, for those of us who have not already achieved the Singularity and become one with our machines, we can only do so much at one time- if nothing else, we can only hit keys so fast. Assuming I represent any kind of baseline as an 'average' CoH player- my playtime is somewhat limited, but I do some theorycrafting and I've been playing for close on to four years now (with a two-year gap in the middle)- then our hypothetical 'average' CoH player is going to have a rough time pushing Controllers far enough to seriously overshadow Defenders, simply due to the complexity of action and situational awareness needed for it.
And also because Controllers tend to fill the screen with FX, so you can't see what's going on anyways. Eesh >.O
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
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But the converse is also true. Less experienced Controller players will tend to focus on their primary so they are dealing damage even as they focus on control. Conversely a lot of less experienced Defenders have a habit of over-(de)buffing and spend more time using their primary than the team need sand consequently doesn't deal as much damage. For example the rule of thumb I use with my Traps and Trick Arrow Defenders is that if I spend more than half of an engagement using my primary I'm probably overdoing it (there are, of course exceptions).
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Originally Posted by TeChameleon
Assuming I represent any kind of baseline as an 'average' CoH player- my playtime is somewhat limited, but I do some theorycrafting and I've been playing for close on to four years now (with a two-year gap in the middle)- then our hypothetical 'average' CoH player is going to have a rough time pushing Controllers far enough to seriously overshadow Defenders, simply due to the complexity of action and situational awareness needed for it.
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Well, for me it's the other way around. That is, team of IOed 50s at levels where they don't lose IO bonuses anyway is exception rather than the default assumption. Differences in teaming styles I guess, plus on EU servers being too picky is counter-productive. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
So unless you are only teaming with a random PUG full of newbs chances are your controller is going to be all you need to keep the team at the soft cap and the defender is only providing a pad against debuffs not the huge difference you are describing.
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That said, sure, IOs negate most of the advantage FF defender has over FF troller.
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Originally Posted by TeChameleon
Honestly, it seems to me that the very fact that there's this much debate about it- and on the Controller boards, no less- suggests that there might be less difference than some think.
My gut instinct on this- beyond what I posted last time- is that while it may be possible for Controllers to optimize better than 'fenders, one runs into the human factor. That is, for those of us who have not already achieved the Singularity and become one with our machines, we can only do so much at one time- if nothing else, we can only hit keys so fast. Assuming I represent any kind of baseline as an 'average' CoH player- my playtime is somewhat limited, but I do some theorycrafting and I've been playing for close on to four years now (with a two-year gap in the middle)- then our hypothetical 'average' CoH player is going to have a rough time pushing Controllers far enough to seriously overshadow Defenders, simply due to the complexity of action and situational awareness needed for it. And also because Controllers tend to fill the screen with FX, so you can't see what's going on anyways. Eesh >.O |
I will give that generally, if one has the choice between a Controller and a Defender, they will pick the controller.
However, it has been noted that Defenders are not *bad*. They are infact, very good. If I am choosing between a tanker, scrapper and a defender, chances are, I'm going to pick the defender 9 times out of 10.
This makes balancing them even more difficult, because it's not really the *Defenders* problem... It's the controllers. Yes, nobody wants controllers nerfed, and I doubt they will, but thats the biggest problem. Controllers are just to good, and it makes defenders look bad in comparison.
A change that would differentiate defenders from corruptors and controllers would be to allow them to buff themselves when they solo.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Self buffing when solo wouldn't work.
Empathy Defenders would get permanent Instant Healing level regen, enough recovery to overcome nuke crashes and +100% recharge pretty much perma with slotted Adrenalin Boost. Add in self-Fortitude and they'd never want a teammate ever again.
Meanwhile, Dark or Rad Defenders would get nothing.
The support sets are the most diverse in the game and often don't scale well from a Primary to Secondary.
e.g. Force Fields and Sonic Resonance do scale well, the controller/Corrupter versions offer 75% of the main bonuses.
Empathy doesn't, because the main limiting factor is not the actual heal values or recovery boosts but the recharge. If Empathy on Controllers had longer recharges for the auras, Fort and AB, that would make Empathy Defenders much better off relative to their Controller counterparts than they are now.
(Hope this doesn't happen BTW, my main is an /Emp Controller. 
)
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It already does. Controllers do it all the time with their pets.|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Self buffing when solo wouldn't work.
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And it doesn't have to be 100% of the buff. A 75% or even 50% self buff is more than they're getting now.
And the reason Dark and Rad would get nothing with solo self buffs added to defenders is they can already buff themselves when soloing.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
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The important thing to remember though is that sets like Empathy currently solo a LOT worse than the debuff based sets. Sets like Dark, Rad, Storm and Traps don't really need the ability to buff themselves since they already get the benefit of their own powers (although a self heal for Storm would be nice). The sets that hurt solo are the ones like Empathy, Sonic, FF, Cold etc. which have a lot of core powers focused solely on buffing teammates.
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Empathy Defenders would get permanent Instant Healing level regen, enough recovery to overcome nuke crashes and +100% recharge pretty much perma with slotted Adrenalin Boost. Add in self-Fortitude and they'd never want a teammate ever again.
Meanwhile, Dark or Rad Defenders would get nothing. |
Buffing sets don't solo as well, it is true. On the other hand, their buffs do not diminish by 80% against the hardest targets in the game, unlike the debuffer's debuffs.
I was pointing out that magicj's proposal would create more imbalance between sets rather than redress the existing imbalance between ATs.
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I don't think you did. There's already imbalance between sets and there always will be. And as Adeon Hawkwood pointed out, it's the buffing sets that currently suffer the most. Giving them the biggest improvement isn't a problem because it's exactly what needs to be done. |
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
I was pointing out that magicj's proposal would create more imbalance between sets rather than redress the existing imbalance between ATs.
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But let's take a look at your examples:
● Empathy Defenders would get permanent Instant Healing level regen
Controllers can already do this for their pets and in most cases its the pets that are used to grab aggro. It's not a game breaking feature.
● Enough recovery to overcome nuke crashes
As was stated earlier in this thread, defender nukes are a problem that needs to be solved. No other AT so universally skips their level 38 power the way defenders do.
● +100% recharge pretty much perma with slotted Adrenalin Boost.
What would they do with this recharge? Heal the baddies to death? Fire off their AoEs faster against minions?
● Self-Fortitude and they'd never want a teammate ever again.
Again, controllers can already do this and again it's not a game breaking feature.
Anyway, you mentioned that your main is a empath. I also have a 50 fire/emp troller. Perhaps we could duo, buff each other, and get a feel for the actual performance of a buffed empath. I have a feeling it won't be as game breaking as you're portraying it, but we can test it to be sure.
If you (or anyone else) would like to give it a go, just say so on this thread and we'll set up a time. My empath is on virtue, or we could copy toons over to the test server.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
I've dual-boxed Empathy/Energy Blast defenders.
I already know that its incredibly powerful.
You rarely get hit, you heal any damage almost instantly, your blue bar never shifts, you can't be mezzed, and your attack chain consists of cycling Explosive Blast, Energy Torrent, Power Blast and Power Burst.
That's a bit much for a team-oriented character solo, isn't it?
Generally, the experience of playing a defender is different than the experience of playing a controller.
Playstyle.
An FF defender plays very differently than an FF controller. Force Bolt, for example, is a very useful power for a Defender. Not so much for a controller. This gives you the chance to play a set you like in a completely different way.
Outlook.
I really agree that defenders and controllers view teams differently, mostly out of need. Defenders tend to need teams more than controllers. When I team when playing my defender, I'm all about the team. When I team with my controller, I'm all about the team too, unless you get me into a mood, in which case I may leave the team without even saying goodbye.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage