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Actually, I think seeding is somewhat likely. I think it's somewhat unlikely because I'm not at all sure how they'd come up with a sale price for seeded items. However, if they came up with a way to base it on actual sale trends, I think it would achieve something quite different than increasing drop rates.|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
^^^They don't need to seed anything. If they want, they can adjust the drop rate. That changes the supply/demand ratio and prices will adjust accordingly.
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Consider that Positron had previously stated, back when the devs were saying the markets would not merge, that they had plans for helping "improve" the markets. I do believe this was said at least in part to posts about how fallow the villain market is. Now, War Witch has posted about previously unknown suppliers to both WW and the BM. This cannot reasonably be a reference to Praetorean characters in a merged market scenario, because playing in one place means you aren't playing in another, and so you can't be considered additional supply. One way both of these could have be (or have been) done is with market seeding.
Raising drop rates directly has impacts on balance outside the market. It makes the good in question universally easier to acquire by all players, whether they participate in the market or not. It's a universal shift in average time-to-achieve for attaining that good.
Dribbling stuff into the market is similar, but not the same. First, it's not universal - it only shifts time-to-achieve for people who use the market. Second, if you find a way to make it dynamic, only supplying things that have lots of demand and little supply, you can also make it self adjusting, so that it doesn't universally glut the supply of that good. (I don't claim this is simple, only possible.)
An increase in drop rate is a hammer. Dynamically seeding the market is potentially a scalpel. You can do grievous harm with both, but the limit on how well you can fine-tune a hammer is a lot more coarse.
Seeding has another advantage. It can help keep the markets liquid in the face of declining player base.
I think that a seeding system would also be a rather nifty inf sink, but I would be surprised if that were actually a consideration in creating it. I think rather that it would be a moderately beneficial side-effect.
Edit: I thought of something else. It's very hard for the devs to change supply of any given thing inside the drop pools without affecting everything else. Right now, they can only change the drop probabilities of entire pools and the relative probability of a given item within the pools. For example, they can make Numina's Convalescence drops more common, but that means you get less of everything else - Numina's drops take the place of other goods. You also can't currently make the drop rate of a level 40 Numina different from a level 50 one. A seeder has none of these limitations. If you saw the need, you could increase the supply of Numina's recipes without affecting the supply of anything else.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I think the game needs much better inf sinks than the ones we already have, because inf obviously flows into the game at a much higher rate than fixed costs and character retirement/abandonment take it out.
I think the easiest way to provide a massive inf sink (and also insure a marketers' riot) would be to allow purchasing Merits with inf at some stupid high rate of exchange, like 1M inf per Merit. That would set a de facto price ceiling on the rare non-purple drops in the 200-250M range (well, not really, since people buy common recipes for greater than table prices all the time) and take that inf out of play instead of just moving it around on the market.
If they did that, then added purples and PvPs to the Merit Vendors for ~500 Merits, then it'd be like draining the swamp.
I also think it's needed. Yes, all of the players who have been around for any length of time and care to spark two brain cells together can virtually manufacture inf; I do it as well. But I sometimes imagine new players who don't know the market or have a dozen 50 alts, earning their hard-won 20K and then getting sticker shock when they try to buy a Luck Charm for a single Acc IO.
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I would be shocked if they went in for a mere factor of 2 over the cost of the current top-end merit prices. I'm thinking a factor of five would be the bare minimum, and a factor of 10 or more is probably likely.|
Originally Posted by Starjammer
I think the easiest way to provide a massive inf sink (and also insure a marketers' riot) would be to allow purchasing Merits with inf at some stupid high rate of exchange, like 1M inf per Merit. That would set a de facto price ceiling on the rare non-purple drops in the 200-250M range (well, not really, since people buy common recipes for greater than table prices all the time) and take that inf out of play instead of just moving it around on the market.
If they did that, then added purples and PvPs to the Merit Vendors for ~500 Merits, then it'd be like draining the swamp. |
For most goods, merits are a very inefficient way to buy things compared to the market. That's almost certainly intentional. The devs likely want merits to be an option that people use with caveats and limitations, but they want them to use the market more often. To do that, the market has to be a more time effective option. What you're describing would create a flight from the market to the merit vendors, which would have a spiraling negative effect on the market. That's very likely why merit prices on most goods are very high compared to the "value" of merits as computed by the number of merits it takes to buy the goods you can sell for the most money on the market. That high cost acts as a damping factor in the feedback loop between the two. Putting the damping factor at a mere 2x price (500M inf isn't even a factor of 2 over some of them today, especially on the BM) almost certainly isn't enough.
In any case, I find it extremely unlikely that the devs will ever allow us to buy merits with money. As the market merge has shown us, anything is possible, but they have been pretty dead set on merits being reward for very personal, per-character achievement. Letting them be bought with inf removes that completely. I'm not sure there are as many reasons for them to go back on that position as there were for them to reconsider a merge.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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if you look at his post you quoted, you will see he quoted someone which was who he was talking to. |
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Ok, bit of a rough day for me. I usually don't take stuff like that personally. Just didn't see who else, of the peeps that had responded, you could be talking about.
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Well, in the interests of disclosure, I should admit that I hate-hate-HATE the various Merit/token systems. Part of the reason that inf has gotten so hyper-inflated, IMO, is this idiotic "lets have 15 mutually distinct forms of currency" notion they've implemented.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
In any case, I find it extremely unlikely that the devs will ever allow us to buy merits with money. As the market merge has shown us, anything is possible, but they have been pretty dead set on merits being reward for very personal, per-character achievement. Letting them be bought with inf removes that completely. I'm not sure there are as many reasons for them to go back on that position as there were for them to reconsider a merge.
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I feel that nearly everything in the game should be able to be bought or sold at a vendor for an inf cost. Purchase prices should be high and sell-back prices low. Things should be scaled so that drops and the market would be more time-effective and work in the margin between the two. But the vendor would always be there as the last resort, acting as an economic stabilizer. If inf becomes too plentiful or supply becomes too constricted, such a system would automatically ameliorate the imbalance.
But since that will not happen, I simply think that setting a high inf to merits ratio for exchange would be the simplest and most effective form of inf sink that the devs could implement. It would surely be a far easier thing to do than set up a scheme for auto-marketing.
A million per merit wouldn't do it. If I were a dev and I wanted to do this, I'd do two things:
1) 21 hour timer on the buy
2) Five fixed-price items available: First Merit (100K), Second Merit (1 million), Third Merit (2 million), Fourth Merit (5 million), Fifth Merit (7 million) .
You can get a merit a day for practically free, three a day for around a million each, four a day for 2 million each, five a day for 3 million each. If you were one or two merits short on something you could get it. If you wanted to build up a stable of alts and roll recipes every week, you could do so at a reasonable price. If you were five merits short of your LoTG, you could get them but it would cost ya.
If that was too complex, I'd sell single merits for 5 million inf.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I doubt WW's message meant seeding. I think she was talking about the Praetoria markets being a source.
As for discussing seeding ,yes, it would be a great inf sink. They wouldn't have to do lots of it. Just drop a few recipes or high priced salvages onto the market. The fact they supplied the item removes the inf from the system. You could pull billions out without too much trouble and some judiscious seeding. Trickle is the key word here, not deluge.
The idea of removing influence from the system, I like. Seeding is a possibility, if done on a limited basis and with careful consideration. I agree with Fulmens, that the inflationary problems in game are due to the vast increase in currency and limited ways of removing it. Both kinds of merits are limited due to not being able to trade them and they are removed from the system after one use. INF does not leave the system fast enough. When you print tons of money, and flood the system , you get inflation. It's a basic law of economics. We've been printing money like crazy by playing the game. Now we have to find a way to remove some of it.
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As I mentioned, that doesn't make sense. It especially doesn't make sense after a merged market, and she posted about the additional supply in a 2nd post, following up the post about the market merge. In a merged market, where you play is irrelevant - it can't ever be considered additional supply. |
Originally Posted by xen10k
I doubt WW's message meant seeding. I think she was talking about the Praetoria markets being a source.
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Now, that doesn't mean that isn't what she meant. But if that's what she meant, what she said is a terribly inaccurate way of saying it. She made it sound like something new, and if it's just Praetorean markets, it's only new in the sense that Praetorea itself is new, and not new volume. You can't even assume its a reference to new players - that doesn't fit the description she gave, unless you assume all new players play in Praetorea. But we know that would be inaccurate too, because as far as we know, it is a low level area. (Persumably this may change later.) Once characters outlevel Praetorea, they become heroes, villains or something in-between. They stop being suppliers from Praetorea unless the player stops and starts again with a new lowbie.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
It does, IF you read it in context.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...58#post2969458
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( her emphasis) |
Originally Posted by War Witch
A few of you have made comments about the RP aspects of this merger, so Id like to discuss that a bit.
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| As for the Market Merge, two recent developments in Primal Earth are responsible for this change: |
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| The other is not quite such common knowledge. Out of nowhere, Wentworths has gained access to new suppliers, but all suspicions and investigations have been stymied by the immaculate paperwork of their new partners. Likewise, the Black Market has suddenly seen a rise in activity, though no one has looked too closely at the why so long as the goods are solid. For now, it remains a mystery. |
It does make sense. It makes perfect sense after a merged market. I think you are really reading too much into it.
While I could get behind seeding, I agree that WW is probably talking about Praetoria.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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Add to that, the possibility of a 2XP weekend prior to GR (unless 2XP has been announced as scrapped for this summer and I've missed it)...and we'll have even more INF being thrown around
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Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
Something I haven't seen mentioned is the effect of returning players on market supply/inf.
I doubt if it is typical or not but my brother-in-law and his best friend are coming back when GR breaks and they have tons of stuff from back in the day, purples, pvp IOs, billions of inf and so on. If this was typical, then it might mean even more inf that is currently tied up in unactive accounts suddenly moving. For that matterhow much inf do you suppose is tied up in inactive accounts? Also what happens to the stuff sitting in Wents/BM for inactive players? |
Repeat Offenders
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The game doesn't necessarily need a new Inf sink, but I think it does need some more careful re-balancing of the economy and in many ways an Inf sink is the easiest way to achieve that. The recent level 50 inf earnings bug fix caused a huge increase in the rate at which level 50s earn inf without increasing the rate at which items are supplied or the rate at which people below 50 earn inf. So consequently we've got a lot more inf coming into the economy compared to items resulting in significantly higher prices.|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Adeon, do you think the game needs an INF sink?
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Now assuming that the devs decide they want to try and bring prices down there are three solutions:
1. Reduce the amount of inf being created
2. Increase the supply of items
3. Increase the rate at which inf is removed from the economy
The first would upset a lot of people (since it would basically be a nerf to the inf earning rates). The second would be a popular move but it would also increase the number of items on a per player basis (and thus reduce the time to fully equip a character) which the devs might not find desirable. The third option is the trickiest to implement and potentially a lot of pitfalls (both in terms of balancing the economy and avoiding player backlash).
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| If the devs decide to implement some form of seeding program because, as you said, it could be an effective infamy sink, will it really make a difference in how people use the market? and would it be better or worse for the game economy? |
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Originally Posted by xen10k
Second development. She's giving an in-character reason for supply flowing in from Praetoria.
It does make sense. It makes perfect sense after a merged market. I think you are really reading too much into it. |
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
While I could get behind seeding, I agree that WW is probably talking about Praetoria.
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The Revenants and Vengeance Imperium-Triumph, Champion & now flavoring Justice!
Tanker Tuesdays & Brutal Thursdays. If you like fun, look'em up!
Shhh! Rangle is plotting.
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I like the sound of this. I know we cannot say with any certainty and this is all speculation but I think the possibility (however remote) of a behind the scenes move like this to be very interesting.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Assuming they use some sort of automated system which works by automatically filling a certain quantity of excess buy orders that are above a certain price point rather than just listing stuff at a fixed price and seeing what happens then I think the effect would be positive.
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The Revenants and Vengeance Imperium-Triumph, Champion & now flavoring Justice!
Tanker Tuesdays & Brutal Thursdays. If you like fun, look'em up!
Shhh! Rangle is plotting.
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do you even have a clue that the stuff people are puting bids on to hold that extra infl/inf are not even in the game? so how can you give something that doesn't exsist? and i think alot of people would be extremely pissed off to find their billions gone with nothing to show for it.
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Originally Posted by Lohenien
I wouldnt mind seeing them seed all bids currently on the market for non impossible items ( level 51+ stuffs) so that a large portion of inf. would leave the system and we would have hordes of stuff to start the merged market off with.
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In my experience and opinion, roleplaying justifications for mechanical and/or balance things should have strong or good tie in with the mechanical reality of the thing they're justifying. I stand by the assertion that if this is what she meant, she didn't do a very good job of it. That may not be on her head - perhaps she was stating what will be "formal" canon about a Praetorean market. Even if it's on her head, it could be for as simple a reason as that she came up with it on the fly as she wrote that post - something I can easily forgive. That doesn't mean it's a good description or explanation, and it's not the one I would give were I ad-libbing it on the fly.|
Originally Posted by xen10k
Second development. She's giving an in-character reason for supply flowing in from Praetoria.
It does make sense. It makes perfect sense after a merged market. I think you are really reading too much into it. |
Just as I may be reading it to literally, it should be considered that others may be reading it too dogmatically.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The more I read it, the more it just looks like "Black market and Wents have access to the same pool of goods."
And, yes, cleaning out the old databases seems like it would make building the new one fairly trivial.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
To the horror of anti-merge RPers everywhere, she may have actually been describing that WW and the BM are actively trading with one another. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
For that matterhow much inf do you suppose is tied up in inactive accounts?