Story Telling in Video Games


DKellis

 

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Found this Newsweek article in my feeds today: Why Video Games Matter and found it a really interesting read. The interviewee, Tom Bissell (a video game critic and author of Extra Lives: Why Video Games Matter), argues that some of the best games are from smaller companies, are not as well known, and don't try to emulate motion pictures as story telling devices.

For me, personally, I kept waiting for him to refer to City of Heroes, but I'm not sure that's the kind of game he plays. But his opinions seemed fairly spot-on to me, and made me think deeply about how stories are told in video games, and how often it comes out as a clumsy, clunky mishmash of mouse clicks, cut scenes, and travel time.

The article isn't enough to plumb the depth of the issues, but I was hoping it's enough to start a discussion of the story telling mechanics in COH and how we might like to see it improved. As I'm not a professional game developer, I can't be anything more than an Armchair Expert™, but I thought a general discussion of the subject might be interesting. (You guys always have something interesting to say.)

(The link to the book on Amazon is provided because you can actually peek inside that one [as opposed to some].)


 

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I honestly think that story-telling of any sort in video games still have some way to go. This is driven home especially by gamers who say "if you want a story, go read a book or watch a movie". The implication, from these gamers, is that telling a story somehow gets in the way of a game.

Personally I think one of the barriers in a game telling a story is, in fact, the gameplay. Or rather, the need to have skill in gameplay. Too easy or obtuse, and the gameplay is trivialized, making the "game" aspect of it suspect. Too difficult, and the story is gated: we can't see how the story arc ends unless we defeat that AV.

And with different skills and circumstances, what is easy to one may be difficult to another; this may not only include skills related to the game itself, but perhaps social skills, in being able to pull together a competent team to take down that AV.

EDIT: I'm not including meta-game activities such as checking Paragonwiki or using the mission autocomplete. That, to me, is akin to skipping to the end of the book; it's possible, but it's probably not how the story is meant to be read, even if you now know the conclusion of the mystery or something. Obviously you can still do it (spoiler-lover that I am, I do it often), but it's still not intended usually.


Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue

Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~

 

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A story in a video game means everything to me. It doesn't have to be a good story but it has to be engaging. And if the gameplay and graphics complete that than I'm sold.

It bothers me greatly that many gamers are saying: "if you want a story, go read a book or watch a movie". It also is the main reason why I am not a big fan of multiplayer games(except MMO's). Because often the singleplayer(and the story) take a backseat to get multiplayer done right.

That's why I fear for the new Assassin's Creed(Brotherhood) and why I haven't even played Modern Warfare 1 or 2.

Anyway, this is more a singleplayer vs multiplayer rant and not one about stories.

I do think that story wise games could get better but telling a story in a game is different then it is for a movie or book. Gamers expect at least 8 till 10 hours of game so lots of padding has to be done to fill that gap.


The M.A.D. Files - Me talking about games, films, games, life, games, internet and games

I'm not good at giving advice, can I interest you in a sarcastic comment?

@Lyrik

 

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Originally Posted by Lyrik View Post
I do think that story wise games could get better but telling a story in a game is different then it is for a movie or book. Gamers expect at least 8 till 10 hours of game so lots of padding has to be done to fill that gap.
Even more, if I got a game for US$50 and I only get 10 hours' worth of actual game, then I'd feel ripped off. A book (paperback) might last me that long for a tenth of the price.

Of course, a book only requires the reader to be literate, have a decent vocabulary, and have enough recall abilities to remember what happened prior in the story. (Also the usual mechanical actions of being able to hold the book and turn the pages and whatnot.)

A lot of what happens in games is busywork. Travel is a major one. In progression-based games (with experience points and such), fighting enough enemies to level up to take on the boss at a comfortable risk level is another; in this case, bosses are level-gates.

What can be done could be to integrate the story within this busywork; while you're travelling, make it meaningful, rather than going from point A to point B and only that.


Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue

Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~

 

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Originally Posted by DKellis View Post
Even more, if I got a game for US$50 and I only get 10 hours' worth of actual game, then I'd feel ripped off. A book (paperback) might last me that long for a tenth of the price.

Of course, a book only requires the reader to be literate, have a decent vocabulary, and have enough recall abilities to remember what happened prior in the story. (Also the usual mechanical actions of being able to hold the book and turn the pages and whatnot.)
Oh, so very true. And books can be reread far easier than taskforces can be redone, without the headaches associated with them. I have an entire bookcase in my house jammed full of books that have become old friends because I've read them over and over again. But I don't have that same feeling towards the stories in COH.

At some point, the stories become facts, trivia, minutia. I don't feel as warmly about any of the NPCs in COH as I do about, say, Aunt Pol from David Eddings' The Belgariad, or Perrin Ay'Barra in Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. I just don't connect with them as strongly. Perhaps that has a lot to do with the amount of time we spend exposed to them, how much we actually get to know about them. I don't know. But I could read these series over and over again, whereas I could punch Crimson in the face every time he scowls at me, and not give a whit about his missions or story line.

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Originally Posted by DKellis View Post
A lot of what happens in games is busywork. Travel is a major one. In progression-based games (with experience points and such), fighting enough enemies to level up to take on the boss at a comfortable risk level is another; in this case, bosses are level-gates.

What can be done could be to integrate the story within this busywork; while you're travelling, make it meaningful, rather than going from point A to point B and only that.
Again, well said. I think this is one of the major problems that I have with fedex missions, and especially inter-zone fedex missions.

Crimson says that his girlfriend in Founders Falls needs to know something. Run the message over there to her. She gives you a message to take back to him. He gives you a disk to take back to her. She gives you a message to run back to him. It's pointless and absurd, all the more because they both have cell phones and access to a covert network of spies. But you, a superhero, are reduced to errand boy/girl.

It's the worst possible way to move a story forward.


 

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A story in a video game means everything to me. It doesn't have to be a good story but it has to be engaging.
If I didn't care about the story, I'd be playing Tetris.


Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

 

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What I find interesting is we're talking about storytelling, and yet looking through and interview that praises Braid, a game with such BAD storytelling that even after reading plot analysis guides for it, I'm STILL not sure there actually is a plot in it. Yahtze postulates that in a good game, gameplay and storytelling go hand in hand, while in Braid, they're locked on both sides of a brick wall made of tigers, or something of that nature. And he's right. I don't expect high-society literature that requires years of analysis and deconstruction to glean what meaning it has, ESPECIALLY plopped on top of a game that appears to have about as much to do with that story as a Tiger Shark has with a Tiger Uppercut.

By and large, I believe what sinks modern gaming more than anything else is its absurd cost. Anyone who's been gaming for at least the past 10 years will have seen games become shorter and shorter as they became better looking and more intricate. A level in the original Half-Life is simple enough to where even a fan with imagination can pull off something decent in fairly short order. A level in Half-Life 2 is complicated enough to require a dedicated level designer and quite a chunk of time. A level in any UT3 game is so complex I can't imagine who has the patience to put in all those little curves and pipes and cables and ledges and UGH! As game production costs increase, game substance gets cut, and games become more shallow.

The problem with storytelling in games is the segregation between gameplay and storytelling. Amusingly, the Call of Duty games have always been pretty good about telling a simple but engaging story in such a way as it flows WITH the gameplay. I still have such fond memories of the siege of Stalingrad from Call of Duty 2 (was it?). And yet Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 has got to be one of the WORST games about storytelling, not just because it turns what used to be a series about mostly realistic war scenarios into a Michael Bay film, but does so at a steep degradation of its actual story. There's just nothing INTERESTING there.

I enjoy Half-Life's way of telling a story by, largely, NOT telling a story but rather letting the player experience it. Even when there IS exposition, it consists of random clues thrown about by characters before they're interrupted, shot, eaten or abducted. The game DOES pause to deliver plot from time to time, but even then, it's never a case of the game basically sitting you down to tell you the plot to your face. It feels natural and it happens without taking you out of the experience.

Another game I feel does storytelling well is Mass Effect. Now, many have accused the game of being too wordy, but let's be honest here - Mass Effect, and especially Mass Effect 2 is as much a "point-and-click" adventure as it is an action RPG. In fact, more so. Many of the game's problems are solved by talking, and every important plot point is taken with a conversation decision. The conversations don't take you out of the game because they ARE the game. Even the cutscenes don't take you out of the game because, thanks to Paragon and Renegade interrupts, they ARE the game.

Basically, though, the worst thing games suffer from is crappy quality. Stupid games with no soul in them sell like hot cakes, I guess because there's always room for one more mediocre shooter, yet creative games lie in obscurity because... Well, they're not what everyone else is playing, and it probably doesn't have 4 at the end. Ugh...


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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argues that some of the best games are from smaller companies, are not as well known, and don't try to emulate motion pictures as story telling devices.
Well, yeah, they're not owned by EA or Actiblizzision management who only care about how much money they make. Bobby Kotick said something like they have no interest in new intellectual properties--they're just going to milk game franchises to death and use microtransaction content to gouge MMO players (Paragon Studios hasn't fallen so low as to sell any and all new content like Cryptic was reduced to...yet. The costume Booster Packs are the best way--nothing game impacting, they're just a small number of costumes a buff which is completely up to the subscriber if they want to pay for it or not).

You get mediocre garbage writing when you have people like that controlling the purse strings. What are the game writers going to do: quit in protest? Lol, they're glad to have a paying job in the industry. So the big devs will play it safe and not take chances to try to maximize profits. A dev house being run by some guys out of their garage will be the ones pioneering new great well-written games rather than the big guys. The big guys will just keep pushing 3D NEXT GEN GRAFIX LOOK AT ALL THAT BROWN AND BLOOM IN CALL OF HALO 7: MADDER THAN MADDEN. YEEEEEEAH! Yeah, graphics don't make good games.

BioWare has certainly shown a remarkable decline in the quality of their game writing since the days of Baldur's Gate. Supposedly their writers get put through a writer's workshop which undoubtedly consists of dumbing down their writing to be as mediocre and generic as possible. I can already guess with high accuracy how every quest in Kotor online will be written...but i'll still play that game just to have a totally sweet jetpack and flamethrower torching jedi :lol:


 

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I can't really tell what the gamer stance on graphics is.

On the one hand, there's the standard call that Now All The New Games Care About Is Graphics, which implies a possibly unspoken Games Were Better Back Then.

On the other hand, I've also seen plenty of comments here about how CoH/V needs to upgrade its graphics because they look "dated", and Ultra Mode was met with appreciation, apart from the hardware requirements. What criticism of Ultra Mode I've seen appears to be based on the technical implementation and hardware requirements of it, rather than whether it should have been implemented at all.

I don't know how to reconcile this.


Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue

Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
By and large, I believe what sinks modern gaming more than anything else is its absurd cost. Anyone who's been gaming for at least the past 10 years will have seen games become shorter and shorter as they became better looking and more intricate. A level in the original Half-Life is simple enough to where even a fan with imagination can pull off something decent in fairly short order. A level in Half-Life 2 is complicated enough to require a dedicated level designer and quite a chunk of time. A level in any UT3 game is so complex I can't imagine who has the patience to put in all those little curves and pipes and cables and ledges and UGH! As game production costs increase, game substance gets cut, and games become more shallow.
I agree here. Though I would also add that complex level design has not stopped the game community from pushing out lots of great mods for any number of games out there with publicly available SDKs.

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The problem with storytelling in games is the segregation between gameplay and storytelling. Amusingly, the Call of Duty games have always been pretty good about telling a simple but engaging story in such a way as it flows WITH the gameplay. I still have such fond memories of the siege of Stalingrad from Call of Duty 2 (was it?). And yet Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 has got to be one of the WORST games about storytelling, not just because it turns what used to be a series about mostly realistic war scenarios into a Michael Bay film, but does so at a steep degradation of its actual story. There's just nothing INTERESTING there.
It sure sold a gajillion copies though...

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I enjoy Half-Life's way of telling a story by, largely, NOT telling a story but rather letting the player experience it. Even when there IS exposition, it consists of random clues thrown about by characters before they're interrupted, shot, eaten or abducted. The game DOES pause to deliver plot from time to time, but even then, it's never a case of the game basically sitting you down to tell you the plot to your face. It feels natural and it happens without taking you out of the experience.
I think that Valve has done a remarkable job with that in the Half-Life series. Even with so many unanswered questions, it still feels like you're seeing the big picture and are a part of it.

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Another game I feel does storytelling well is Mass Effect. Now, many have accused the game of being too wordy, but let's be honest here - Mass Effect, and especially Mass Effect 2 is as much a "point-and-click" adventure as it is an action RPG. In fact, more so. Many of the game's problems are solved by talking, and every important plot point is taken with a conversation decision. The conversations don't take you out of the game because they ARE the game. Even the cutscenes don't take you out of the game because, thanks to Paragon and Renegade interrupts, they ARE the game.
I've thoroughly enjoyed ME 1+2 myself and I'm looking forward to 3.

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Basically, though, the worst thing games suffer from is crappy quality. Stupid games with no soul in them sell like hot cakes, I guess because there's always room for one more mediocre shooter, yet creative games lie in obscurity because... Well, they're not what everyone else is playing, and it probably doesn't have 4 at the end. Ugh...
The sheep syndrome of humans wins out in the end.

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Originally Posted by Iannis View Post
BioWare has certainly shown a remarkable decline in the quality of their game writing since the days of Baldur's Gate. Supposedly their writers get put through a writer's workshop which undoubtedly consists of dumbing down their writing to be as mediocre and generic as possible. I can already guess with high accuracy how every quest in Kotor online will be written...but i'll still play that game just to have a totally sweet jetpack and flamethrower torching jedi :lol:
I think that's kind of unfair. Everyone keeps pointing back to Baldur's Gate and accusing Bioware of doing terrible story-telling. I agree that the original NWN campaign was badly done...but from what I understand, there wasn't going to be a full campaign shipped with the game. That got put in at the last minute and so the demo module became a 'full game module'. The expansions were much better done.

Mass Effect and Dragon Age are pretty nicely done games. No, they aren't Baldur's Gate or Planescape: Torment(not made by Bioware), but then if they were, people would be complaining that Bioware is rehashing it's past work.


 

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Originally Posted by DKellis View Post
I can't really tell what the gamer stance on graphics is.

On the one hand, there's the standard call that Now All The New Games Care About Is Graphics, which implies a possibly unspoken Games Were Better Back Then.

On the other hand, I've also seen plenty of comments here about how CoH/V needs to upgrade its graphics because they look "dated", and Ultra Mode was met with appreciation, apart from the hardware requirements. What criticism of Ultra Mode I've seen appears to be based on the technical implementation and hardware requirements of it, rather than whether it should have been implemented at all.

I don't know how to reconcile this.
A difficult question to answer easily.

Gamers do like great looking graphics. I know I do. Back in my earlier days of gaming with my friends when we would do LAN parties almost weekly, we all obsessed over getting the games we had to look better. The 3D graphics card business was still in its infancy and so hot graphics were all the rage.

The major difference at the time was that it seemed like games were made with better graphics only after the developers got everything else done(it SEEMED that way). So it was like graphics assisted the game but didn't drive it.

Presently, I think that advanced graphics are on a game publisher's must-have checklist. When you demo a new game, it's not as easy to show how great the gameplay and story aspects are in a short period of time. But you can totally show off your hot, new graphics engine.

Crysis is a good example of going overboard with graphics.

Also, keep in mind that gamers are liars. A lot of 'hardcore' gamers will gladly give you an extensive lecture about how great things were back in the days of Quake. But that same guy will then scoff at a new game that comes out and has graphics that 'look 5 years old'. Check the forums at Bluesnews for many examples of this.


 

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Originally Posted by Slashman View Post
It sure sold a gajillion copies though...
I honestly keep feeling like we're due for another video game crash at some point in the near future where companies end out making "so many ****** games that there are no ****** games left to make," to quote the Angry Video Game Nerd. I just don't see how the game industry can subsist on mediocre garbage indefinitely. Either someone will come up with something revolutionary, cash in big time and write their names in history like a few companies have, or developers will suddenly find themselves with a fringe market and no idea what happened.

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I think that's kind of unfair. Everyone keeps pointing back to Baldur's Gate and accusing Bioware of doing terrible story-telling. I agree that the original NWN campaign was badly done...but from what I understand, there wasn't going to be a full campaign shipped with the game. That got put in at the last minute and so the demo module became a 'full game module'. The expansions were much better done.
I know it probably makes me a pariah to say this, but I never liked Baldur's Gate, or indeed Baldur's Gate 2. That style of storytelling just doesn't appeal to me. I've discussed the difference between a game being a story you play through vs. a game being a world you kind of exist in, and the latter is certainly a distinct unfavourite of mine. Baldur's Gate's actual storyline happens in four or five large steps, with lots of side missions beyond that, and I just don't like that framework. I don't WANT a wide, spanning world full of wonder and excitement for me to find. I'd much rather have a concise storyline that follows at least a tangible path from beginning to end, even if it's not a linear one.

This is why I like Mass Effect, and especially Mass Effect 2. In the sequel, you don't really have "a storyline," but you have story elements that each contributes to the end goal. You have several large storyline missions, and the rest is missions to get the different characters and then missions to gain the different characters' loyalty, all working towards the ultimate goal of attempting the final mission with as much preparation as you can muster. In Mass Effect 2, I never felt like I was just roaming around, waiting for something to happen, never felt like I was going into a location LOOKING for something to do.

If I had to judge what I preferred as writing, I'd take Mass Effect over Baldur's Gate without a second thought. I'd probably take Mass Effect 2 over most other RPGs, as well, simply because my protagonist speaks with a voice, has a personality and is capable of leading actual conversations, rather than exchanges of monologues.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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I suspect that this:

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Originally Posted by Slashman View Post
Presently, I think that advanced graphics are on a game publisher's must-have checklist. When you demo a new game, it's not as easy to show how great the gameplay and story aspects are in a short period of time. But you can totally show off your hot, new graphics engine.
May be a consequence of this:

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But that same guy will then scoff at a new game that comes out and has graphics that 'look 5 years old'.
I know I've heard a lot of talk among people I've tried to get to try CoH that it has "dated graphics". To be fair, they don't then turn around and say that "graphics are killing games", possibly because they're not so... fire-and-brimstone passionate, I suppose.

Text adventure games (presumably Zork needs no introduction) prove that it is possible for games to tell a story without good graphics, but it doesn't prove that such a game can tell a good story, and still be considered a game. Besides, adventure games have their own problems.


Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue

Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~

 

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Originally Posted by DKellis View Post
I know I've heard a lot of talk among people I've tried to get to try CoH that it has "dated graphics". To be fair, they don't then turn around and say that "graphics are killing games", possibly because they're not so... fire-and-brimstone passionate, I suppose.
In my experience, people don't try COX because they know next to nothing about it. Lack of marketing and press time means that its not a game that's on people's minds. Combine that with some bad press over the Mission Architect debacle and you have a game that will probably not get much attention. Apprently this is just what NCSoft wants after sinking all this money and resources into a new box and expansion.

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Text adventure games (presumably Zork needs no introduction) prove that it is possible for games to tell a story without good graphics, but it doesn't prove that such a game can tell a good story, and still be considered a game. Besides, adventure games have their own problems.
That may be a bit misleading. Text adventure games were popular at a time when, again, graphics weren't all that.

As much as I may hate to do it, I have to look at games through the eyes of the publishers and investors these days to get an accurate picture of what is shaping the game industry.

The target audience has changed dramatically. People tend to discount this a lot. We talk about dumbing down games...but I don't think we appreciate what that means exactly. Accessibility is the new buzzword for games now. They need to appeal to the widest possible audience.

A game would have been considered successful by selling 300K copies 7 years ago...but this is now considered to be the territory of independent game developers and not large, main stream entities like EA and Activision. They want millions of copies sold because they are investing millions of dollars into every single title. That doing this may be the wrong thing, is irrelevant to them.

With that kind of investment on the line, the publishers will goad the developers to cower into comfort zones. Stifle creativity and stick with a 'tried and true' formula. That, more than anything, has stifled the evolution of storytelling in modern games. A few developers can choose to ignore this kind of pressure, like Valve with their Half-Life series, because they are their own bosses.

Other developers can get more legroom because they are so well known that their publishers will give them more leeway...like Bioware to a certain extent. And even they have to tow a certain line now that they are tied to EA. I'm not sure what the second installment in the Dragon Age series will be like. I HOPE it will be more like the first...but mass market appeal tells my gut to expect a good dose of consolitis.

In the end, I'm kind of sad that creativity is getting so heavily stifled. And this, in turn, is retarding storytelling in games.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I honestly keep feeling like we're due for another video game crash at some point in the near future where companies end out making "so many ****** games that there are no ****** games left to make," to quote the Angry Video Game Nerd. I just don't see how the game industry can subsist on mediocre garbage indefinitely. Either someone will come up with something revolutionary, cash in big time and write their names in history like a few companies have, or developers will suddenly find themselves with a fringe market and no idea what happened.
I've been saying this for a while now, but for different reasons. With utter slime like Gamestop slowing worming its way into how games are actually made (even GR, now), and big publishers throwing their weight around in all the most back-assward ways (customer-kneecapping DRM, trying to kill second-hand sales while simultaneously lying in bed with Gamestop, Activision, just Activision, and anything related to marketing and risk/reward in general), I think the industry needs to take a nap for a little while. But I suppose that's all best-saved for a different thread.

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Originally Posted by DKellis View Post
A lot of what happens in games is busywork. Travel is a major one. In progression-based games (with experience points and such), fighting enough enemies to level up to take on the boss at a comfortable risk level is another; in this case, bosses are level-gates.

What can be done could be to integrate the story within this busywork; while you're travelling, make it meaningful, rather than going from point A to point B and only that.
For the former, see games like Mass Effect or Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. Mass Effect accomplishes this by simply making its side-quests legitimately interesting (at least most of the time). Vampire accomplishes it by making XP only gained through completing quests, not by repetitive killing. This means that you can get just as much XP by talking your way out of the situation, or using stealth, as you would by just killing everyone in the room. Makes for a very stable, if slightly imperfect, level curve. In short, don't make your game grindy.

As for the latter, at least in the context of CoH, I've always found the fact that we use the city's existing tram system for the bulk of our travel hilarious and charming. As for actually making travel fun: Give it some dialogue (Mass Effect elevators), skip it outright (Mass Effect space travel, essentially), or make it its own game element (Borderlands' driving).

Now for my long-winded rant about gameplay, story segregation, and player immersion:

For one, games need to stop trying to be Hollywood. This may explain why I tend to look down on a lot of popular games - they're structured like blockbuster movies while forgetting that they're a game. It also doesn't help that even when the do remember, they forget that a lot of movie tropes are already stale in movies. Big, exciting explosions don't really wow me when you're just throwing them in to imitate Michael Bay.

The biggest offender in breaking my immersion is cutscenes. I don't mind them, since they can be incredibly useful and important for achieving mood and atmosphere, not to mention telling some of the story itself. But what really needs to stop? For one, cutscenes that are a movie unto themselves yes Kojima I mean you.

Secondarily, cutscenes diminishing my accomplishments. Something that happens in far too many games: You reach the final boss. You both taunt each other in the traditional pre-fight cutscene, but soon it's on. You trade blows, have a rip-roaring epic smackdown. At last, you take off that last sliver of health. He's dead, baby! ...Oh wait, no he's not. Because now there's another cutscene showing he's still on his last legs, cackling that he's still alive and taunting the hero again about his dark past or whatever. Inevitably, this will be followed by the protagonist stabbing him in the face with a large sword, truly putting an end to the Big Bad. Too bad I didn't get to play that part of the game, huh?

Quicktime events or perhaps the less adrenaline-fueled interactive cutscenes are a decent compromise, but regardless, I feel that bosses should die because I killed them.

Of course, this doesn't mean you can't have a protagonist who's a character in their own right, but you have to let the player in on the experience. This is something that Mass Effect floored me with. While every Shepard's story will be essentially the same, you really get to make your own unique experience playing as the First Human Spectre. This is very relevant to CoH: I wouldn't be nearly as invested in my characters if they were just Night Elf Rogue #94581 and Dwarf Barbarian #69325. With the new morality system, as well as the more general contact conversation system coming into play now, I am very excited for CoH's storytelling potential, especially in how it involves my own characters.

What about the other side of the coin? What about games that aren't character-driven? The everyman is a good stand-by, but only if you're willing to actually give the protagonist some kind of story. Half-Life did this well. It may sound a bit cliche or insulting, but I bet the "everyman" theoretical physicist, who is eventually called upon the save the world probably appealed well to the nerdy crowd that played the game.

But then there's the dark side of blank-slate protagonists: When you play a character that has little to no glimmer of personality at all, and even worse, for no reason. Master Chief isn't exactly a silent protagonist, but it always irked me that he never really got to say or do anything befitting of his as-we're-told fame and experience. Maybe it's the sugar-hyped 10 year old in me, but you have a freaking badass cyborg as your main character - DO SOMETHING WITH HIM! (Mind, I'm only speaking of the first Halo. It's the only one I have any solid first-hand experience with, not to mention without it we wouldn't have the other 6 "final Halo game Bungie is making".)

This is one of the things that killed SiN Episodes for me. The original SiN was a pretty fresh and quirky FPS from the 90s, and it had a very mouthy and fun protagonist in John Blade. Not too dissimilar from Duke Nukem, in fact. But Episodes gave him literally two or three lines total (not to mention tried to make the plot slightly more serious). It was disappointing, to say the least.

And, to close things off, a short criticism of Valve's "no cutscene" style: Yeah, there are still cutscenes. Sure, they might let me walk around a little bit in my cage, but I'm still stuck in Kleiner's room, listening to him babble about getting my HEV suit and the teleporter and Lamarr. Ironically, the best part of that segment was when Kleiner asked me to assist him by pulling the switch on the teleporter ("Great job, Gordon! Throwing that switch and all, I can see your MIT education really pays for itself."), if only because it involved me, the player, actually doing something, instead of listening to an expo-dump.

It's rather interesting to see how that idea of "open cutscenes" has slowly fallen by the wayside in the later Half-Life games too, as the developers are forced to engineer contrivances to prevent Gordon from just shooting whatever threat appears. Bulletproof glass, falling rocks, alien telekinesis are the three common ones.

Thanks for making it through the whole rant if you actually read it. I'm sure it was a bit incoherent.


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Originally Posted by IanTheM1 View Post
Thanks for making it through the whole rant if you actually read it. I'm sure it was a bit incoherent.
It wasn't incoherent to me. I found it to be pretty interesting and mostly on target.


 

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On that article: Dead Space didn't have cut scenes, but it certainly had the locked areas where another character vomited exposition at you.


 

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Originally Posted by UnSub View Post
On that article: Dead Space didn't have cut scenes, but it certainly had the locked areas where another character vomited exposition at you.
Dead Space's plot was... Weak, shall we say, and its delivery wasn't exactly top notch, even without the forced exposition. In fact, I have to wonder what there was so much to exposit, when all you really did most of the game was running around the ship activating subsystems. In fact, Spoony described it pretty well, and went something like:

You need to activate the engines. Oops! The engine room is sealed. You must turn on the power. Oops, you're missing a fuse. You need to get one from engineering. But oops! The door to engineering is locked. You must find explosive. But oops! You can't activate the explosives without the captan's key. But oops! The captain's body is in the morgue on the other end of the ship. Only the transport system doesn't work... Just layerd objectives one on top of another.

Dead Space would have been a much better game if it had stopped screwing me around doing menial tasks for a second and showed me some actual plot, instead of more and more corridors and hallways. I stopped being scared of hallways at the time Resident Evil 2 rolled out.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Yeah, well, Dead Space wasn't trying to win oscars for its writing - it was about making you feel vulnerable and clumsy aboard a ship full of face-eating freaks.

On that note I used to love Mass Effect's approach to story telling, unfortunately since getting addicted to Alpha Protocol the former just feels quite underwhelming. The actual scope and plot is incredibly engaging, but its execution just feels limp to me - choices are often very binary, you have to actively try to get failure in something, etc. By comparison Alpha Protocol isn't afraid to have its characters mock you for failing, call you out for being a hypocrite, the choices aren't simply binary ethics, etc.

AP has a very intense, very personal storyline simply because of how many different things change depending on your actions. It's very possible to completely eliminate whole plotlines simply because you may have slain a person someone else spared, or pissed off a character another got cosy with. I don't get that in other games and it's sad.


 

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Originally Posted by IanTheM1 View Post
But then there's the dark side of blank-slate protagonists: When you play a character that has little to no glimmer of personality at all, and even worse, for no reason. Master Chief isn't exactly a silent protagonist, but it always irked me that he never really got to say or do anything befitting of his as-we're-told fame and experience. Maybe it's the sugar-hyped 10 year old in me, but you have a freaking badass cyborg as your main character - DO SOMETHING WITH HIM! (Mind, I'm only speaking of the first Halo. It's the only one I have any solid first-hand experience with, not to mention without it we wouldn't have the other 6 "final Halo game Bungie is making".)
This is actually why I get chills down my spine when people suggest that, in City of Heroes, everything should always be generic and our characters can never react to anything, lest it infringe on their concepts. Now, while I agree that we shouldn't be writing stories for any particular character type, like say... A mercenary whose biggest dream is to be an Arachnos fanboy! But at the same time, being given the choice between several different reactions, as the new arcs seem to, IS a very good thing.

Just as character powers can generally be broken down into several different archetypes, so can character personalities. Say, you could have tough, whiny, serious, goofy, insane, altruistic, self-interested and so forth. Just as power archetypes never really fit any particular character concept PERFECTLY, but I dare say that it's fairly easy to be "close enough." Mass Effect did a good job of it by presenting players with, generally, three different options - the pragmatic neutral option, the heroic paragon option and the dickish renegade option. You couldn't even pick WHAT Shepard said, only what his attitude was, but that was enough.

Especially in role-playing games, it's usually not a good idea to give characters FULL characterisation to the point where it feels like you're borrowing someone else's fanfic, but at the same time, characters should still have SOME character to them.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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These responses have all been extremely interesting. Thank you all for taking the time to reply, and doing so in such thoughtful, insightful, and eloquent ways.

Based on what everyone is saying, it seems like COH has managed to avoid many of the storytelling pitfalls that plague other games.

Our storytelling system largely revolves around contacts, dialog, and clues. You obtain a new contact, complete a mission. During the the mission, you gather clues.

My only peeve with the storytelling mechanism is that clues are easily overlooked because they're buried in the Clue window, and not overly obvious. And they don't seem to be sorted/grouped in any meaningful way. "Clue Found" is your notification that you've found something, but it's rather vague, and when you're racing through a mission on a team, you don't have time to stop and check the Clue window to see what it is. It has to wait until afterwards (if even then).

I'd like to think there was a better way to emphasize the story, the plot, but I'm not sure how to do it. Thankfully, cutscenes are few and far between. Though they might be useful as a storytelling device, there are a few instances where they might get someone inadvertently killed (unintentional aggro during Frostfire, for example).

Again, my thinking is that the story needs to be emphasized more in COH. It's a comic book sotry, after all. Not just a series of random adventures. (At least, this is the case in story arcs.) I'd like to imagine a way to bring the story/plot to the forefront during those arcs, but how to do so escapes me.


 

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Originally Posted by TyrantMikey View Post
I'd like to think there was a better way to emphasize the story, the plot, but I'm not sure how to do it. Thankfully, cutscenes are few and far between. Though they might be useful as a storytelling device, there are a few instances where they might get someone inadvertently killed (unintentional aggro during Frostfire, for example).
City of Heroes suffers from an EXTREME case of story and gameplay segregation without actually HAVING to. The bulk of the game's content, which is still the old CoH content, basically consists of an intro, an outro and "beating stuff up" in the middle. Most missions can be solved by walking in, killing everything and clicking everything, hoping that whatever you were supposed to kill or click is one of the things you did.

Newer story arcs solve this to a great extent, but they still make the mistake of putting all narrative in the game's text boxes. One lost art of narrative is NPC Dialogue. Sometimes the narrative doesn't have to give you an answer right away, relying instead on NPCs to suggest what might be going on. Just as an example, on a mission to stop a CoT ritual to stop a demon, you could come upon a couple of mages talking about how they don't think the mystic in charge of the summoning is actually from the Circle, hinting at a plot point that may not develop for another several missions.

By and large, though, the BIGGEST problem City of Heroes suffers is dead air. Far too many missions, player- and developer-made, give you one or two objectives, yet plop you onto a huge map that has no narrative value, essentially requiring you to grind your way through the map to advance the story. I firmly believe that a good game with good storytelling should never let the player go more than 10-15 minutes without presenting SOMETHING interesting. It doesn't have to be clues or plot points. A talking patrol, a fight, a non-required glowie, an ambush, just SOMETHING. You should never let your players fall into the samey grind of going from spawn to spawn and having nothing to do but think about the fastest way to get 'er done.

In fact, that's one of the things that made the original Half-Life so good - it never got boring. Every now and then you'd see a scientist dragged into a vent, come upon a locked door someone on the other side had to let you through, meet an uncomplicated puzzle and so forth. That way, the game never felt boring, like you were just walking hallways and shooting aliens. City of Heroes can do with more of that. Like, say, the two Skulls in the high-level Vhaz mission that just wanted to know what was in the barrels. I LOVED that


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by TyrantMikey View Post
Again, my thinking is that the story needs to be emphasized more in COH. It's a comic book sotry, after all. Not just a series of random adventures. (At least, this is the case in story arcs.) I'd like to imagine a way to bring the story/plot to the forefront during those arcs, but how to do so escapes me.
I posted some thoughts on how I would remedy this in another thread somewhere(too lazy to dig it out now).

My take on it is that the devs might want to take a look at other games and see how they are presenting story elements.

Teaming to do missions is one of the most surefire ways to lose track of any story in this game. It's sad, but true.

One major issue is the inadequate nav window. Sure it tells you what the objective is...but we could use a separate in-mission alert window. Something that sits in a corner of the screen and is auto-updated with new info as the mission progresses. When something happens, it's displayed as a short summary text that is clickable to bring up a more detailed explanation. Similar to how a quest update or Codex update pops up in Dragon Age or Mass Effect. In this way, all team members can see what has been happening and what it means to the mission.

Another thing we lack is lore caches. Taking a leaf from just about every decent RPG, why can't we have a lore book/log/data pad whatever? I'd like it so that when we do missions, there are scrolls, notes or data discs that we can collect and each one gives some insight into either the current story arc or the enemy group as a whole. Each one becomes an entry that we can read immediately or later as it becomes convenient. And each one puts a different piece of the puzzle in place.

Third thing: Random mission maps suck for creating good stories. I know the devs thought it was great that generic warehouse 85126 could serve in that Council arc and still be used later in that Nemesis arc down the road, but that was a bad idea. I hope newer arcs and content going forward leverage the use of unique maps for missions so that things like unique pieces of architecture and other props can be used to better convey what is going on in the story.

There's no reason that good gameplay and story can't co-exist in this game. I would personally love to see things done other than front or back loading all the story bits for a mission or arc. I'd love to see more of the story told during the mission and affected by our actions.


 

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Well, yeah, they're not owned by EA or Actiblizzision management who only care about how much money they make.
This is hilarious. Blizzard is the gold standard for quality -- they take as much time on their projects as they feel they need, refuse to be bullied on release dates, and will kneecap a project if it doesn't meet their standards. They haven't released a game with bad writing ever. I don't like much of it but it's not bad.

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Bobby Kotick said something like they have no interest in new intellectual properties--they're just going to milk game franchises to death and use microtransaction content to gouge MMO players (Paragon Studios hasn't fallen so low as to sell any and all new content like Cryptic was reduced to...yet. The costume Booster Packs are the best way--nothing game impacting, they're just a small number of costumes a buff which is completely up to the subscriber if they want to pay for it or not).
Cryptic is selling the exact same kinds of things in their "C-Store" as Paragon is selling in "Booster Packs". They had planned to release Vibora Bay in CO as a paid expansion called "Revelations" (it's about the size of CoV) but a massive negative reaction from the players got that nixed. I expect this to be bad for the game in the long run as the subscriber base has more or less stated it won't pay for new content, which in turn puts a limit on how much the company is going to spend developing it. Personally I didn't have any issues with a paid expansion per se, but it might be for the best in this particular case that VB was released for free because while it's very pretty to look at it has some of the worst writing I've seen in any MMO (it's about as bad as some of the worst MA arcs I've reviewed.)

Paragon Studios isn't doing any better; the writing in City has been on a steady downward spiral since i7. People have been gushing over the silly Evil Twin stories we just got but I honestly can't see why; at best they're a fairly pedestrian demonstration of some new technology. Nor do I expect miracles from GR. The last fluff piece we got appears to have been written by someone who read John Byrne's take on Dr. Doom circa 1980 and thought it was really deep (it isn't) and some kind of bold new direction (no, we read it too, thanks).

It doesn't look to me like there's a lot of credibility in the idea that big companies are pushing out garbage and the little guys are releasing unsung masterpieces.


Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

 

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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
People have been gushing over the silly Evil Twin stories we just got but I honestly can't see why; at best they're a fairly pedestrian demonstration of some new technology.
Because we don't expect high-brow literature out of a super hero game, and I dare say some of us don't find that sort of thing compelling to begin with. The arcs set out to do one thing - give us choices and make it seem like we are driving events - and in this they succeed wonderfully. They're also written with enough characterisation for the people involved, as well as a steady hand, and I honestly don't WANT anything more than that.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.