Well, I guess my question is: how does this help solo play past level 10 or so? At that point, most Tankers have their mez protection power, and rarely do I ever get mezzed while solo after I get that.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Gauntlet needs to be usefull across all levels not just for the lowbie tanks that have to wait til lvl 10ish ot get there mez protection.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
First of all, I come in peace. I'm not here to say tankers suck blah blah blah. My goal is to propose a buff to gauntlet, that actually buffs the tank, helps solo play, and even team performance, and it's not just "moar dmg plz?!"
Simply, the idea is an inherent mag 2-3 mez protection, and the unique ability to not have toggles suppress when mezzed. This would allow lowbie tankers to "take one on the chin" so to speak prior to getting a mez protection power and not lose the ability to tank for the team. Though this would not allow for the tanker to ignore all mez indefinately, as stacking mez effects would require the protection power to be capable of ignoring large ammounts of mez. The ability to continue recieving the benefits of toggles, even when mezzed, is to ensure that the survivibility tankers are balanced around, will be maintained even in the off chance a group of enemies break through mez protection. Gl all and have fun  |
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Hopefully I'll hit both of your responses with one stone. This idea was born from the observations of my, newish warshade Moonshatter that I made a week and a half or so ago. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Well, I guess my question is: how does this help solo play past level 10 or so? At that point, most Tankers have their mez protection power, and rarely do I ever get mezzed while solo after I get that.
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Skipping the sewer run and kheld arcs and moving to the level 16ish team I was on last weekend. We were doing the posi part two, and the vahz were obnoxious due to toxic damage, but the poor tank (either inv or will, I cant remember off the top of my head) we had was having a real hard time of it in orenbega.
I checked that he had the mez protection power, but I guess he may have been forgeting to use it, but every few spawns or so he would of course want to take the alpha. which would include a few holds.
Now I was busy using his astonishing death to set up a mire, so I cant say if he or other people on the team were aggroing another spawn, but he would get held then in moments would faceplant. I would try so hard to take some of the alpha with him as my inherent gave me some darn good resist, But taunt is just so effective. Since then however I've notice tanks getting ***** slapped by mez on the teams I've been on between Kheld arcs.
If my experience with this is, however, just an outlier and not that common, fair enough. I just noticed it while playing, and thats where I got the Idea. The timing being well past the level the mez protection power would be available.
Gl all and have fun
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
So you'd be giving ignorant players a passive that means they will think they don't need one of their most fundamental toggles?
(Also, I don't think this is really a 'buff to gauntlet' - it's 'a new inherent ability alongside gauntlet' by my eye.)
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Dont care about the first part of your post really, if the players were just forgeting the toggle or over-aggroing then as I said, fair enough. |
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
(Also, I don't think this is really a 'buff to gauntlet' - it's 'a new inherent ability alongside gauntlet' by my eye.)
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Now I want to threadjack my own thread here.
The quoted part got me thinking, dangerous I know. My thought was, what would be an actual buff to gauntlet as opposed to just adding more stuff, were the stalker changes a new inherent added on or a buff to assassination?
Then I thought, what is the end goal of buffing gauntlet? All but probably one of ideas I've come up with have been spawned from a precieved problem. Either a problem I have percieved (correctly or incorrectly) or someone else has and I've heard them mention. Are there issues with the tanker AT that need addressing, or is it simply the desire to have an inherent that benefits the tanker itself? (which is completly fine by the way)
Finally I wondered, should gauntlet be considered an inherent? Taunt on hit is not unique to tankers. Brutes get the single-target version (digression: will brutes lose poke-voke when GR comes out, due to an AT villainside that can handle aggro?:end digression) and both brutes and scrappers get taunt auras.
This isn't comprable though to the various critical inherents, as all you need to do to taunt with a tanker or brute is attack or even just stand there. It just so happens that the tanker doesn't get any other bonus, because of the taunt. With criticals, the critical proc rates are variable and change by different methods making each unique.
My question now is, if the developers said "Gauntlet is gone, the taunt effect is going to be treated a just a part of the powers now, not an inherent." What would you want the new tanker inherent to be?
Me, I would want a 10% chance for a variable self heal/ self +end that increases for every enemy currently aggroed on the tank and possibly their rank. The First enemy would give a larger buff than subsequent ones. The size of heal/self end would depend on how often the proc tics.
GL all and have fun
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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This. I will get behind this with the very essence of my soul. I feel Tankers should have something to set their survivability above and beyond that of a buffed brute, and I think this is it.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
and the unique ability to not have toggles suppress when mezzed.
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Go on, GW, hit me with that mag 100 death hold. I'll shrug off that DoT with my heavy resistance!
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
*maybe* it would work if this new inherent *a long with* using typical mez-protection offered by the set would result in unsuppressable toggles. This still seem like a big bone to throw to tanks. I understand D_K's sentiment, but I'm not sure this is how.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
In response to your question of what we would want if Gauntlet was just considered part of the power, I've actually been thinking about that recently.
Since the inherent has to be something that helps all Tankers relatively equally (i.e., can't be a resistance buff, since that helps some sets more than others), and since we're already pretty good on teams, it should be something that at least helps out solo (and it can help teams, too).
As such, I've been thinking something along the lines of Domination or Fury. Basically, give the Tankers a new bar that will charge up as attacks come in. Once it gets to 90% full or so, allow the Tanker to activate a click power. The power? This:
Battle Cry:
The Tanker is able to take point for the team. Some are natural leaders. Others are more of a Barbarian than a skilled warrior. Others just know how to scream. Any way that it gets done, the Tanker's Battle Cry inspires the team to new heights. Increasing End Recovery and Recharge for the team for a short time (maybe a 20% boost to each?)
This would allow a solo Tanker to be a bit more endurance efficient, and to be able to use his more damaging powers (and things like heals) faster when he needs to. It would also be a decent team buff, allowing for multiple Tankers to both contribute to the team's speed.
What do people think?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Gauntlet if I try and visualise what it would be in real life, would be an attack that makes an opponent turn to the attacker from being particularly annoying. Why scrappers don't have a version of it I don't know really. I would of designed this game differently. *Cleans the whiteboard.* Anyway I take it in this game the gauntlet is a glove, that has an effect of knuckle dusters which result in tissue disruptions and possible fractures. With not all tankers having a DoT aura, perhaps gauntlet could have a DoT effect, the effect of feeling the pain of an attack that's happened and done it's damage again (no more damage taken just pain felt) but then anyone fighting a tanker with an interruptable power would be stuffed so maybe a chance for.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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We have a winner. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Battle Cry:
The Tanker is able to take point for the team. Some are natural leaders. Others are more of a Barbarian than a skilled warrior. Others just know how to scream. Any way that it gets done, the Tanker's Battle Cry inspires the team to new heights. Increasing End Recovery and Recharge for the team for a short time (maybe a 20% boost to each?) This would allow a solo Tanker to be a bit more endurance efficient, and to be able to use his more damaging powers (and things like heals) faster when he needs to. It would also be a decent team buff, allowing for multiple Tankers to both contribute to the team's speed. |
I think this would also inspire tankers to do that which they do best; soak up aggro. Would it be best to have it charge up from attacks coming in, or attacks coming in and going out? One might encourage more taunt-botting, but the other might encourage better team involvement from the tank.
/signed
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Reminds me of Guild wars where you get a battle cry that buffs defense or something. I don't know what
| What do people think? |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Agreed. This is clearly the best suggestion I've heard. My vote would be for just attacks coming in. I don't see it encouraging taunt-bots because attacking generates aggro too.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
We have a winner.
|
Although, I would still kill to have unsuppressed toggles.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
To A_T: I'm hard pressed to argue numbers, but 20% seems high for a team buff, especially if allowed to stack (I guess I'd like to know the duration, too. I'm also tossing end discount vs recovery). I could see that bonus for the tank and then a lesser buff for the team, which is in turn subjected to diminished returns (especially with multiple tanks crying). Teams of 8 tanks would run amuck as burzerks (actually thats kinda funny). The buff could also extend to secondary effects a lot like blaster/energy_manipulation/power_boost for maybe 10 seconds
I am also concerned that an ITF'ish lag would happen with all the crying and what not. I've *heard* that bosses/leuts doing this is significant cause for lag (but I'm often wrong).
This is really enforcing the idea of a tank as melee controll, which is fine to me. In all, I like it.
To N_D: Are you asking for taunted and "gauntleted" (hit by tank) target(s) to be weakend or so enraged that they would be penalized? Ok, I could see that, maybe -5% def or -10% rez for hit/gauntlet, and a less AoE penalty for Taunted mobs, but the target of the taunt would be even more effected (kind of like thunderstrike: large hit for primary target and less for AoE). Would work in and out of teams and incourage taunting when solo! I like this, too.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
Aett, that's a great idea, especially if it's both a self-buff and a team buff. It would go a long way toward addressing the issue of tanks "not stacking"; if it's a desirable team buff, having two tanks on a team would be even better than one!
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Yup, both a team and self buff.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Aett, that's a great idea, especially if it's both a self-buff and a team buff. It would go a long way toward addressing the issue of tanks "not stacking"; if it's a desirable team buff, having two tanks on a team would be even better than one!
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Obviously, the numbers would have to be looked at and figured out, but I wanted to address several issues that I see pop up in regards to Tankers:
1) Endurance costs of attacks for the damage they do
2) Stacking multiple Tankers on a team
3) Soloability
It seems like this would cover a lot of those issues.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Well, I thought that the ITF lag came from all of the team buffs needing to calculate, and then all of the capes being added on to that.|
Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky
To A_T: I'm hard pressed to argue numbers, but 20% seems high for a team buff, especially if allowed to stack (I guess I'd like to know the duration, too. I'm also tossing end discount vs recovery). I could see that bonus for the tank and then a lesser buff for the team, which is in turn subjected to diminished returns (especially with multiple tanks crying). Teams of 8 tanks would run amuck as burzerks (actually thats kinda funny). The buff could also extend to secondary effects a lot like blaster/energy_manipulation/power_boost for maybe 10 seconds
I am also concerned that an ITF'ish lag would happen with all the crying and what not. I've *heard* that bosses/leuts doing this is significant cause for lag (but I'm often wrong). This is really enforcing the idea of a tank as melee controll, which is fine to me. In all, I like it. |
But, with just 8 Tanks on a team, versus hundreds in lag valley, it shouldn't affect it too much. It should just act like another power.
20% might be too much. Maybe it could be lessened in effectiveness the more people are in range? I don't know. It was just an initial thought, and probably needs some work before it's a good idea.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
I love it! I'd love it even more if it carried a taunt effect (and I'm sure it would, now that I think about it)I love it! I'd love it even more if it carried a taunt effect (and I'm sure it would, now that I think about it)|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
In response to your question of what we would want if Gauntlet was just considered part of the power, I've actually been thinking about that recently.
Since the inherent has to be something that helps all Tankers relatively equally (i.e., can't be a resistance buff, since that helps some sets more than others), and since we're already pretty good on teams, it should be something that at least helps out solo (and it can help teams, too). As such, I've been thinking something along the lines of Domination or Fury. Basically, give the Tankers a new bar that will charge up as attacks come in. Once it gets to 90% full or so, allow the Tanker to activate a click power. The power? This: Battle Cry: The Tanker is able to take point for the team. Some are natural leaders. Others are more of a Barbarian than a skilled warrior. Others just know how to scream. Any way that it gets done, the Tanker's Battle Cry inspires the team to new heights. Increasing End Recovery and Recharge for the team for a short time (maybe a 20% boost to each?) This would allow a solo Tanker to be a bit more endurance efficient, and to be able to use his more damaging powers (and things like heals) faster when he needs to. It would also be a decent team buff, allowing for multiple Tankers to both contribute to the team's speed. What do people think? |
Maybe it would help to break tanker out of the "wait here till I herd them up" rut that seems to rear its head every now and then.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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At first, I considered this to be a possible problem for balance, but then I thought about all Kin team, all defender teams and all controller teams, and figured, "Nah, no more powerful than those teams are."
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Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky
Teams of 8 tanks would run amuck as burzerks (actually thats kinda funny).
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
In response to your question of what we would want if Gauntlet was just considered part of the power, I've actually been thinking about that recently.
Since the inherent has to be something that helps all Tankers relatively equally (i.e., can't be a resistance buff, since that helps some sets more than others), and since we're already pretty good on teams, it should be something that at least helps out solo (and it can help teams, too). As such, I've been thinking something along the lines of Domination or Fury. Basically, give the Tankers a new bar that will charge up as attacks come in. Once it gets to 90% full or so, allow the Tanker to activate a click power. The power? This: Battle Cry: The Tanker is able to take point for the team. Some are natural leaders. Others are more of a Barbarian than a skilled warrior. Others just know how to scream. Any way that it gets done, the Tanker's Battle Cry inspires the team to new heights. Increasing End Recovery and Recharge for the team for a short time (maybe a 20% boost to each?) This would allow a solo Tanker to be a bit more endurance efficient, and to be able to use his more damaging powers (and things like heals) faster when he needs to. It would also be a decent team buff, allowing for multiple Tankers to both contribute to the team's speed. What do people think? |
This idea will go over great for hami and ship raids!!
First of all, I come in peace. I'm not here to say tankers suck blah blah blah. My goal is to propose a buff to gauntlet, that actually buffs the tank, helps solo play, and even team performance, and it's not just "moar dmg plz?!"
Simply, the idea is an inherent mag 2-3 mez protection, and the unique ability to not have toggles suppress when mezzed.
This would allow lowbie tankers to "take one on the chin" so to speak prior to getting a mez protection power and not lose the ability to tank for the team. Though this would not allow for the tanker to ignore all mez indefinately, as stacking mez effects would require the protection power to be capable of ignoring large ammounts of mez.
The ability to continue recieving the benefits of toggles, even when mezzed, is to ensure that the survivibility tankers are balanced around, will be maintained even in the off chance a group of enemies break through mez protection.
Gl all and have fun
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.