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Cloaking Device gives you a place to slot things like: LotG 7.5% Recharge, Kismet 6% Acc, Karma KB Protection, a full set of Red Fortune if you're chasing ranged defense. |
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
Both sides have a point actually.
Cloaking device is still useful for stacking stealth, thematic purpose, and for people who don't want to buy IO. Otherwise, it is true that an IO replaced a power. |
What does a Stealth IO let you slot? Oh yeah...it's an IO itself so it doesn't give you a place to slot anything at all.
Also, Cloaking Device DOES provide some defense, which, even when suppressed will get you closer to softcapping. Stealth IOs only provide stealth, no defense at all.
So, no, a single IO did NOT replace a power. Far from it in fact. A stealth IO gives you stealth, that's it. Cloaking Device provides much more than just stealth.
The only way a stealth IO replaces Cloaking Device is if you're a goober that ignores everything else about it and views it as JUST a stealth power.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
yeah, CD gives much more than stealth!
more end drain and a wasted slot that could have been so much more useful, when you could have slapped an IO in combat jumping for the same effect + movement
( Disclaimer: TL;DR after the --- | Post-posting props to user WhyNot, just noticed he had a few similar ideas )
HAHAH! I just had a deliciously wonderful comedic revamp for Time Bomb come to mind.. it takes a bit of what LOTS of people have suggested along with a slight element of Omega Maneuver to round it out...
So we go with the Sticky Bomb concept. Simple enough, you target a mob and, in the same vein as Omega Maneuver's bang, the end-blast doesn't occur until a few seconds after use (meaning if enemies enter/leave kill zone before blast occurs, they are flagged properly once the damage is dealt).
Here's the quirk: the target is inflicted with a mag 3 (or 4) Fear with the graphical affect of them flailing their arms around (as if they were on fire). The victim then begins pulsing ticks of a sort of no-retaliation taunt, that causes (some) of his comrades to close in and try to "help pull the thing off," while one or two others are struck with true terror and run for the ******* hills.
Damage would need to be far less than a true nuke, but with pretty close to the same radius. Damage could possibly be on-par with damage one would expect from T9s such as Full Auto and Rain of Arrows (maybe even Trip Mine.. bear with me). Detonation should take no longer than the default mez duration of, say, a Blaster's CC-specific disorient (Taser, Beanbag, etc.). Because of the potentially great damage mitigation of the enemy focusing on the threat of the bomb, the cooldown would probably be close to what Time Bomb already is, but the important aspect would be making the actual -cast- time of the power be VERY low, so that it can be used viably.
I propose the following: consider Swap Ammo for Dual Pistols. Currently the act of toggling on either ammo costs no endurance, but does technically have a cast time and a recharge. Also, the coding exists to make certain things happen only when one of these toggles is on.
Make the Time Bomb equivalent to Swap Ammo be a "Prep Demo Charge" -click-, rather than toggle. Have it be the full cost and cast-time of using the ability. THEN, have the -base- Time Bomb ability be a simple click to throw it (this one can have the massive cooldown, as you don't want people rapidly casting one bomb after another by "holding" their first prepped charge, waiting for the recharge, tossing it, then making -another- and tossing it a second time).
---
Devices isn't quite dead yet, but it's too close.
A single power change could completely turn the set around if done right.
Personally, I believe Time Bomb is our weakest link (albeit far-down progression list)
Omega Maneuver is incredibly close to concept, while adding modern functionality.
Compromise. Keep the set unique. Give the red-head a FUN power.
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For IO like Kismet 6% Acc, it can be slotted elsewhere like combat jumping, not necessarily in cloaking device. For LotG +recharge and kb protection, it is nice to have an additional defense power for these IOs to go into. For the defense, it is pretty small after suppression. In addition, not every blaster optimizes their builds by raising defense or recharge.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Cloaking Device gives you a place to slot things like: LotG 7.5% Recharge, Kismet 6% Acc, Karma KB Protection, a full set of Red Fortune if you're chasing ranged defense.
Also, Cloaking Device DOES provide some defense, which, even when suppressed will get you closer to softcapping. Stealth IOs only provide stealth, no defense at all. |
The primary function of cloaking device is to stealth. A stealth IO can replicate its primary function. As you mentioned, cloaking device does provide additional benefits (but minor in my opinion), but they are not without additional costs. It takes a power choice, and endurance to run. In my opinion, cloaking device is not very appealing. It's not as bad as to say that it's broken or obsolete. I would welcome an improvement. The suggestions in this thread are not bad.
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CD does provide some 'extras', but its main function is easily replicated by a widely available IO.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Cloaking Device gives you a place to slot things like: LotG 7.5% Recharge, Kismet 6% Acc, Karma KB Protection, a full set of Red Fortune if you're chasing ranged defense.
What does a Stealth IO let you slot? Oh yeah...it's an IO itself so it doesn't give you a place to slot anything at all. Also, Cloaking Device DOES provide some defense, which, even when suppressed will get you closer to softcapping. Stealth IOs only provide stealth, no defense at all. So, no, a single IO did NOT replace a power. Far from it in fact. A stealth IO gives you stealth, that's it. Cloaking Device provides much more than just stealth. The only way a stealth IO replaces Cloaking Device is if you're a goober that ignores everything else about it and views it as JUST a stealth power. |
When the main argument in favor of a power is "well, it gives you a place to slot for bonuses!", that's not exactly a ringing endorsement.
I took CD and it's slotted with a full set of Red Fortune. But if /dev as a secondary had more powers I wanted I wouldn't have felt any compunction about skipping it in favor of a stealth IO in superspeed. That other power I took instead of CD would also give me somewhere to stick helpful IOs and slot for bonuses.
I wonder if Maneuvers would provide more benefit than suppressed CD for defense? It would deliver the same slotting opportunities plus give a little boost to the rest of the team.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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And you're STILL forced into Super Speed if you want full invisibility. Which costs endurance to run as well. A hoverblaster has no use for Super Speed. |
Originally Posted by Player99
yeah, CD gives much more than stealth!
more end drain and a wasted slot that could have been so much more useful, when you could have slapped an IO in combat jumping for the same effect + movement |
If I skip Cloaking Device and want to toe-bomb, I must take Smoke Grenade (which is even MORE useless than you're saying Cloaking Device is) or Super Speed (which requires me to drop other powers, as my blaster does not have Hasten in his build already)
So, I can take Cloaking Device and stack it with a Stealth IO for full invisibility while hovering -OR- I can change my entire build around to pick up A) A pool that I don't need, or B) a gimped, largely useless power.
I'll stick with Cloaking Device thanks.
You keep going on like EVERYONE plays /Devices exactly like you do, and therefore your point of view is how everyone sees it. It's not.
I find Cloaking Device fits my playstyle much better than a Stealth IO + Super Speed or Smoke Grenade.
I also like Taser.
And I despise Caltrops (apparently I'm the only person that does.)
I'm not trying to be argumentive about it, I'm just pointing out that not everyone thinks those powers are as useless as you do, and that needs to be taken into account before any changes are discussed. I happen to like Devices exactly as it is, if it were changed to the point that it forced a change in my playstyle with it I would be highly annoyed.
I play a Sonic/Devices, and for me Devices works perfectly just as it is.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Minority or not, I encourage ya to keep at it. It's safe enough to say that "most" users that get involved with power balancing have real concerns as to the performance of the set, but every opinion's got to count.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
...I'm just pointing out that not everyone thinks those powers are as useless as you do, and that needs to be taken into account before any changes are discussed. I happen to like Devices exactly as it is, if it were changed to the point that it forced a change in my playstyle with it I would be highly annoyed.
I play a Sonic/Devices, and for me Devices works perfectly just as it is. |
That said, when/if it comes down to it, -something- is -going- to be changed. Specifically for this thread there appears to be a trend of "what -should-/-can- be changed when/if changes are made," and input there could be seen as quite constructive as well. (I'm sorry if you've mentioned anything already, I admit I've skimmed over a couple posts.)
I'm sure everyone else here will agree with you that -imposing- perspectives on others is a bad move, though.
-
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Originally Posted by JackONight
(Regarding Targeting Drone) Perhaps instead of actual crits, they could just add a randomly generated 100% damage buff with a 2-3 second duration. It should have more or less the same effect.
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One tweak suggestion: why not a long-lasting buff that is consumed on the next shot?
It is still randomly generated through the course of TD's uptime. The end-buff would need to either be significantly reduced from 100% DAM, or the "proc" would require a very noticeable internal cooldown -after- the buff is expended, with no chance to stack (also a small, but centered "focus" graphic or sound, to get the player's attention: maybe take the opportunity to add a little "personality" to our floating friend? If not, a simple laser pulse and/or a "Target Acquired" sound beep would be sick).
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-50% recharge and run speed. Chillbain is better than Web Grenade. The small damage on the others does not out weigh the benefits of Webnade.|
Originally Posted by NightSable
IMHO
Web Grenade - Since it does no damage, this is inferior to the other tier 1 immobs all the other secondaries get. I think it should have a small damage componant or be a pure hold(with no damage). There are some PvP uses here. 2/5 stars |
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Originally Posted by NightSable
Taser - Power sucks. It can be used for stacking, but as a blaster, I would rather stack two serious attacks. This power should be removed and reworked completely. 0/5 stars
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Originally Posted by NightSable
Smoke Grenade - This power is helpful, but also skippable. Others may disagree. I would rather have this replaced with tear gas or sleeping gas even. 2/5 stars
Cloaking Device - Sadly, a once set defining power has been replaced by an IO. So this power used to get 4 or 5 stars, but now I give it zero. For a brand new player who can't afford a celerity IO, this is fine choice, but for many, it's very outdated. The defense is negligible, however I have not tried to soft-cap a devices blaster, so perhaps someone has a use for it. This power would be better if it had defense increased to 10%-ish range and/or offered full invisibility and it did not require endurance. Replace with FFG from traps is my recommendation. 0/5 stars |
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Originally Posted by NightSable
Time Bomb - Great idea, but complete fail. This power needs to be revamped. If left alone, I think the damage should be extreme extreme to compensate for the suck factor it brings (in other words, make it the most powerful attack in the game, but good luck getting it off and getting a team to wait for you to set it). Better to have a sticky bomb (time bomb you stick on an enemy) or to have a grenade. Personally, I would just drop the power and add something totally new like (thinking off the top of my head), electrical field (this would be an electrical aura with Pbaoe stun for any melee that gets too close. Good damage mitigation at least. I am sure someone could do better than this though. 0/5 stars
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Originally Posted by NightSable
Gun Drone - So this is a huge improvement over its predecessor. Its a blaster pet. End to summon is high. This power should not require re-summoning to justify the endurance cost. I would also like it to function more like a typical pet with more than one attack. I like the concept of it however. 2/5 stars.
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The nice thing about Devices is the powers synergize amazingly. Breaking them down one at a time is a very short sighted way to evaluate any set. Though I have to say, this is one of the more reasonable break downs in the sense that you are not trying to just homogenize all the sets.
The idea that every Blaster secondary needs to do the same damage, the same AoE, keep the same pace, etc belongs in other games. See: WoW. If the diversity was removed from this game, it would seriously undermine the spirit of it. There are so many options it's hard to believe people complain about what's available at all. If you don't like devices, don't play devices. There's lots of us who really do like it, like playing it, and are not big on the idea of it changing. So perhaps it's time to stop beating the dead horse.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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and there are also lots of us who played it back when it was objectively speaking much, much better than it is now who would prefer not to delete characters we've devoted many hours to just because their secondary has become an under-performing mess.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
If you don't like devices, don't play devices. There's lots of us who really do like it, like playing it, and are not big on the idea of it changing.
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My dislike of /dev is exacerbated by the fact that mine is an ar/dev, yes, but dev lags anyway.
My project to see what a ridiculously expensive l337 IO build can do for my ar/dev has been going pretty well- the process is fun and he has improved measurably over the last couple of months. The problem comes when I log in one of my other blasters with their comparatively less awesome builds and they still out-perform him.
Observed in a vacuum, /dev has some things to recommend it.
Compared to other blaster secondaries, it is an obvious underperformer.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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For a Superspeed character yes it would. If you like a different Travel power then CD is worth keeping for the stealth but the more I look at it the harder I'm finding it to argue that a Devices Blaster has any significant advantages over a non-devices Blaster who uses Super Speed for their Travel power and takes Maneuvers and Tactics from the Leadership pool (see my previous post on trading Targeting Drone for Tactics).|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I wonder if Maneuvers would provide more benefit than suppressed CD for defense? It would deliver the same slotting opportunities plus give a little boost to the rest of the team.
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I'm starting to think the only power in Devices which is useful in a general team setting AND not replaceable with a power pool or just taking a different secondary is Caltrops.
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And there are plenty of other people who play it because we love the theme, want gadgeteer characters and enjoy some of the more situation powers but don't like feeling like we have a secondary that can be mostly replaced with a few pool powers and an IO.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
There's lots of us who really do like it, like playing it, and are not big on the idea of it changing.
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The fact that we still play Devices characters and enjoy them despite the weakness of the set says something about it I think.
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Not surprisingly, after making a spinoff of my AR/Dev as a Traps/AR Defender and focusing heavily on the rifle abilities, I've been having loads of fun...|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
And there are plenty of other people who play it because we love the theme, want gadgeteer characters and enjoy some of the more situation powers but don't like feeling like we have a secondary that can be mostly replaced with a few pool powers and an IO.
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Touching on the discussion of Cloaking Device having its usefulness challenged directly by an IO, of all things, I throw my hat in with those who suggest a comparable performance to Superior Invisibility (because at this point, it seems there's been a DRASTIC shift in the thinking that CD should have it's (rightful) +DMG and/or +ACC/+To-Hit initiative (from stealth) buff).
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sheesh, you're right.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
For a Superspeed character yes it would.
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just compared the two in Mid's.
as my ar/dev is a career-long speedster, that makes YET ANOTHER skippable power in his secondary.
>:e
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I did exactly the same thing (in fact story wise they are the same guy with two different suits of power armor) and the difference is amazing. I still play my AR/Dev because I like him but the sheer utility of Traps compared to Devices is amazing.
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Originally Posted by Incubbus
Not surprisingly, after making a spinoff of my AR/Dev as a Traps/AR Defender and focusing heavily on the rifle abilities, I've been having loads of fun...
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For the semantic argument, I don't think you should say that the Stealth IO "replaces" Cloaking Device. However, it can replace the effect one may seek, depending on their overall build.
There, is everybody happy? 
EDIT: (oops) Do Cloaking Device AND the Stealth IO not add up together?
Also, I often see people talk about the setup times and such for laying mines.
On a team... absolutely, it is an issue.
However, I see people bring it up about solo play... and I have to wonder if the amount of time it takes a /dev to set up an array of trip mines and caltrops and such to take out an Elite Boss without much to do afterward really is any longer than it would be to stand and fight them.
The safety/survivability of using the /devs setup approach is obvious... but the amount of time it takes vs firing attacks long enough to defeat an Elite Boss does not seem entirely apparent to me.
I am not saying people have to love that approach over any other... but I am not convinced (Though I could be proven wrong) that it actually takes longer than a "normal" approach (For an Elite Boss spawn, at least).
EDIT: (Actually, this holds true for all spawns... as it takes far less for regular Bosses and lower to be defeated rather safely and swiftly).
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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They Stack. A Stealth IO combined with one other form of stealth (CD, SS, Steamy Mist, Stealth etc.) is enough to be invisible to most PvE enemies.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
EDIT: (oops) Do Cloaking Device AND the Stealth IO not add up together?
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Also, I often see people talk about the setup times and such for laying mines. On a team... absolutely, it is an issue. However, I see people bring it up about solo play... and I have to wonder if the amount of time it takes a /dev to set up an array of trip mines and caltrops and such to take out an Elite Boss without much to do afterward really is any longer than it would be to stand and fight them. The safety/survivability of using the /devs setup approach is obvious... but the amount of time it takes vs firing attacks long enough to defeat an Elite Boss does not seem entirely apparent to me. I am not saying people have to love that approach over any other... but I am not convinced (Though I could be proven wrong) that it actually takes longer than a "normal" approach (For an Elite Boss spawn, at least). EDIT: (Actually, this holds true for all spawns... as it takes far less for regular Bosses and lower to be defeated rather safely and swiftly). |
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So... Cloaking Device plus Stealth IO is better than invisibility (65 vs 60), unsuppressable stealth for one power choice, plus a little defense. I just noticed that no one who was speaking against CD due to the IO was mentioning that having CD plus the IO was a good thing about /Dev in the first place.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
They Stack. A Stealth IO combined with one other form of stealth (CD, SS, Steamy Mist, Stealth etc.) is enough to be invisible to most PvE enemies.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Well even if it is faster (and I'm not sure it is) the question becomes is it fun? While laying one mine and watching people go flying is fun having to spend several minutes laying them is several minutes of (to me) anti-fun.
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It often seems to me that I can wipe some tough obstacles out relatively quickly (Certainly super safely) when soloing and setting up big firework displays for my enemies.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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It's not unsupressable. Also, you'll note my argument was more that CD is a glorified pool power. Stealth provides the same benefit with just a small movement debuff and for PvE purposes so does SS and it doubles as your travel power. Cloak of Darkness at least provides immobilization protection, +perception and double the defense bonus (after adjusting for AT modifiers).
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
So... Cloaking Device plus Stealth IO is better than invisibility (65 vs 60), unsuppressable stealth for one power choice, plus a little defense. I just noticed that no one who was speaking against CD due to the IO was mentioning that having CD plus the IO was a good thing about /Dev in the first place.
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@claws:
Im glad you found a build for /dev that works for you
I am not trying to force an opinion on anybody, but merely pointing out that compared to other blaster secondaries, and as a set, devices is pretty flawed 
aside from a SPECIFIC build like you mentioned, what reason is there to pick a set that is not only slower all-around, but withing that it is also underperforming/out-shined by Ios you can get to stack on other secondaries?
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Or you could take Stealth. From a practical point of view the benefits of Cloaking Device over Stealth are pretty minimal. My complaint with Cloaking Device has nothing to do with Super Speed (since I much prefer Super Jump) it's that it's basically equivalent to a power that any character can get for a single power choice. The main advantage of CD for a Devices blaster is that is doesn't use one of your power pool selections should you happen to already have 4.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And you're STILL forced into Super Speed if you want full invisibility. Which costs endurance to run as well. A hoverblaster has no use for Super Speed.
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I intended to say unsupressed movement there.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
It's not unsupressable. Also, you'll note my argument was more that CD is a glorified pool power. Stealth provides the same benefit with just a small movement debuff and for PvE purposes so does SS and it doubles as your travel power. Cloak of Darkness at least provides immobilization protection, +perception and double the defense bonus (after adjusting for AT modifiers).
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I really don't find the movement debuff of stealth quite so insignificant and in order to have that stealth for SS, you need to keep moving, no?
Regardless, I am all for a slight boost to Cloaking Device, as we've discussed further earlier.
All I am pointing out is that some of the negative comments regarding Cloaking Device have been leaving out some of its bonuses/positives when doing a compare and contrast.
Any time someone tries to use using another power combined with the IO as a reason CD is poor... they need to remember that CD can be used with the stealth IO, as well, for very good effect.
Not a big deal and I'm not trying to drive anything down anyone's throat... but there are positives about the way /dev's powers are that are being overlooked a little.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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The issue is that it is another nail in /dev's coffin as that pretty much confirms ANOTHER reason why you dont need to have /dev to get stealth on a blaster...|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Any time someone tries to use using another power combined with the IO as a reason CD is poor... they need to remember that CD can be used with the stealth IO, as well, for very good effect.
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if that makes sense
No, I get that idea... although, "nail in the coffin" is absurd.
The point is, people bring up using the Stealth IO in combination with other powers.
We could go back and quote what people were saying...
The point is... CD has its benefits and uses and it is more than what was just being said a few posts up.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Of course, because a set's performance is the only criteria that matters. A character can't be fun unless you hit a certain amount of damage dealt per minute. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Observed in a vacuum, /dev has some things to recommend it. Compared to other blaster secondaries, it is an obvious underperformer. |
Pffft.
My /Devices blaster is one of my favorite characters to play, even including my scrappers and brutes who are damn near indestructible. I know I could be doing more damage and my kill speed could be a little higher.....but I don't care.
I'm well aware that the numbers say /Devices is underperforming, but it offers a playstyle not available to any other blaster secondary. And when you get right down to it, my enjoyment of a character is FAR more important to me than what the forum collective thinks of it's secondary.
I like powers that the majority of the people in this thread seem to think are worse than useless, and I hate the one power everyone likes. (Caltrops) I have a /Devices blaster that literally never dies, and my kill speed isn't that much slower than some other blasters. There's something to be said for any secondary that allows you to build a character that rarely even takes damage, much less actually gets defeated.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Cloaking device is still useful for stacking stealth, thematic purpose, and for people who don't want to buy IO. Otherwise, it is true that an IO replaced a power.