Yeah I think the devs know about it, but arctic fog really needs to grant positional defense as well. Hopefully they fix that soon.
As to FW, its on a diminishing returns based on how much +HP the character you use it on has. Its not a bad power, but I still feel it should have a heal, or preferably a regen component to it.
I wouldn't drop snowstorm, its a very good power that only needs its base slot. On an ill/cold i'd never skip it, since illusion doesn't have any way on its own really to stop mobs from moving around too much.
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Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Yeah I think the devs know about it, but arctic fog really needs to grant positional defense as well. Hopefully they fix that soon.
As to FW, its on a diminishing returns based on how much +HP the character you use it on has. Its not a bad power, but I still feel it should have a heal, or preferably a regen component to it. I wouldn't drop snowstorm, its a very good power that only needs its base slot. On an ill/cold i'd never skip it, since illusion doesn't have any way on its own really to stop mobs from moving around too much. |
I actually think Arctic Fog is fine as it is. Cold Dom, to me, is a set that already seriously pushes the limits of overpowered and any buffs to it would be egregious. I think it gets less attention than Kinetics or Radiation because it blooms later. But Cold Dom is easily in that class of power sets once it gets its full arsenal. IMO the set that really needs looked at is Storm Summoning, given how close it is to Cold and the huge hit it took when pet Recharge got nerfed. If nothing else Cold Dom's Benumb power should actually be nerfed on Controllers, because it's bugged right now and giving us better debuffs than Defenders get.
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I personally skip Snow Storm and Frostworks. Of course, both are fine powers, it just comes down to personal preference.|
Originally Posted by Silencer7
What do you think is skippable in /cold?
Even with ill/, which can get away with skipping a bunch of things in the primary, I find myself wanting to take everything in the secondary. |
My Fire/Cold (50) had enough control and damage to not really need Snow Storm much. I had it early on and it was nice, but later I found I just didn't need it. For Frostwork, again, I felt I had enough control that other powers would benefit me more. So, I ditched them in a respec and took Aid Other and Aid Self. I did this because Frostwork just kept making me with I had a heal. It makes me feel cheated.
My Earth/Cold has so much monster control from my primary that I didn't really feel like I needed them either, and in fact I didn't even really need aid other or aid self. Of course, I'm only level 37 on my Earth/Cold, but I sense that I just don't need Frostwork or Snow Storm.
They are fine powers, but they come down to taste. I'd recommend trying them and then deciding for yourself. These powers aren't "must skip" powers or "must take" powers. You'll figure out which way you feel by trying them. If you don't like them, run a respec.
Good luck!
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I very much agree with regard to stormy vs cold. Cold is insanely powerful both offensively and defensively. Since the pet recharge nerf storm sort of feels like Fire Armor to me. Typecast into the role of "damage", but not really delivering enough damage to compensate for other weaknesses. That said storm is still great, while Fire armor isn't so hot, but just how I feel when playing the toons.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I actually think Arctic Fog is fine as it is. Cold Dom, to me, is a set that already seriously pushes the limits of overpowered and any buffs to it would be egregious. I think it gets less attention than Kinetics or Radiation because it blooms later. But Cold Dom is easily in that class of power sets once it gets its full arsenal. IMO the set that really needs looked at is Storm Summoning, given how close it is to Cold and the huge hit it took when pet Recharge got nerfed. If nothing else Cold Dom's Benumb power should actually be nerfed on Controllers, because it's bugged right now and giving us better debuffs than Defenders get.
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I wouldn't mind seeing a recharge reduction granted to benumb or it being turned into an aoe with the current recharge, but it really doesn't matter, just a QoL change for the most part. Regarding the strength of benumb, it is just a byproduct of controllers having a higher modifier for that type of power. The same thing happens when they use powerboost. So I'm not sure if it is bugged, or just the way things are.
Arc fog currently isn't granting any typed defense, which is confirmed as a bug afaik. And sleet (as well as freezing rain) are bugged and not lasting more than 15 seconds in many situations. So once those two bugs are fixed it should be smooth sailing.
I wouldn't mind a change to the power progression to smooth out the leveling of the set, but I wouldn't dream of changing any of the powers beyond what I just said because the set is so good.
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I wasn't aware one power equal to freezing rain and if you count the single target defense debuff in infridgidate was "extremely" offensive...
| Cold is insanely powerful both offensively and defensively. |
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Guess you learn something new every day. Sleet (and Freezing rain) are pretty much the best -res powers in the game. When they aren't bugged, and we can only assume that Castle will fix it some day, they are easily stacked and settle in nicely as second most forcemultiplication behind kinetics.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
I wasn't aware one power equal to freezing rain and if you count the single target defense debuff in infridgidate was "extremely" offensive...
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In case you weren't aware, Heatloss also provides 30% -res.
Benumb, while up, provides 70.67/265.05 effective DPS against a lvl 50 AV/GM respectively.
In mob to mob action it is behind Kinetics and maybe storm (Basically whether LS+nado pull ahead of HL spikes). Against hard targets it is well ahead of everything* if you can perma benumb, but typically more in line with Rad.
So ya, being one of the top rankers across various types of game play is pretty dang offensive.
*No traps available to controllers.
Would you like to know how it compares defensively that warrants the title "extremely" as well?
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Guess you learn something new every day. Sleet (and Freezing rain) are pretty much the best -res powers in the game. When they aren't bugged, and we can only assume that Castle will fix it some day, they are easily stacked and settle in nicely as second most forcemultiplication behind kinetics.
In case you weren't aware, Heatloss also provides 30% -res. Benumb, while up, provides 70.67/265.05 effective DPS against a lvl 50 AV/GM respectively. In mob to mob action it is behind Kinetics and maybe storm (Basically whether LS+nado pull ahead of HL spikes). Against hard targets it is well ahead of everything* if you can perma benumb, but typically more in line with Rad. So ya, being one of the top rankers across various types of game play is pretty dang offensive. *No traps available to controllers. Would you like to know how it compares defensively that warrants the title "extremely" as well? |
I agree with most of this, although I'd say Cold IO'ed for Recharge is way ahead of Radiation against hard targets. On top of everything else Heat Loss has a huge -300% Recharge debuff in it that is unmatched by any power in the game, even if it can't be perma'ed. That combines with -87% Recharge in Infrigidate, -62.5% Recharge in Snow Storm, and -40% Recharge in Sleet. That's a total of -489.5% Recharge, and if you hit a same-level AV with it at level 50, you're reducing it to around -60% Recharge by yourself for 30 seconds every cycle (about 100 seconds on my IO'ed Cold character). Two Cold Dominators working together could very easily floor the Recharge of an AV and keep it there. That AV is then attacking 4 times slower than normal.
To make things even more stacked, Benumb has -Healing, which lowers AVs ability to heal themselves and each other (e.g. the Nictuses.. Nictii(?) in the ITF). Plus -50% Damage. Plus, if we're talking on a team, around +16.8% Defense from the shields, which unlike Rad's toggles, goes unresisted.
All of this says nothing for the fact that Heat Loss is basically an excuse to never look at your endurance bar again. Even if it hits just one target the endurance buff is so powerful my character can run unslotted Telekinesis on an AV continously for the extra Hold mag.
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Ah there we go, yeah that I wasn't. But I usually also judge by what can be used every mob, so I dont hold that in very high regard. sleet on its own though I wouldn't go to say that the set is "super" offensive. (don't count AV only via benumbs -regen enough to warrant it a title in this, its great for them, just saying as a set its relatively rare)| In case you weren't aware, Heatloss also provides 30% -res |
Defensively yeah its wonderful!
Would be nice if they'd hurry and give controllers traps already.
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Agreed. High rech colds are sick. By far my favorite set other than pre-nerf high recharge storm, so now my favorite.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I agree with most of this, although I'd say Cold IO'ed for Recharge is way ahead of Radiation against hard targets. On top of everything else Heat Loss has a huge -300% Recharge debuff in it that is unmatched by any power in the game, even if it can't be perma'ed. That combines with -87% Recharge in Infrigidate, -62.5% Recharge in Snow Storm, and -40% Recharge in Sleet. That's a total of -489.5% Recharge, and if you hit a same-level AV with it at level 50, you're reducing it to around -60% Recharge by yourself for 30 seconds every cycle (about 100 seconds on my IO'ed Cold character). Two Cold Dominators working together could very easily floor the Recharge of an AV and keep it there. That AV is then attacking 4 times slower than normal.
To make things even more stacked, Benumb has -Healing, which lowers AVs ability to heal themselves and each other (e.g. the Nictuses.. Nictii(?) in the ITF). Plus -50% Damage. Plus, if we're talking on a team, around +16.8% Defense from the shields, which unlike Rad's toggles, goes unresisted. All of this says nothing for the fact that Heat Loss is basically an excuse to never look at your endurance bar again. Even if it hits just one target the endurance buff is so powerful my character can run unslotted Telekinesis on an AV continously for the extra Hold mag. |
My comment with regard to cold lining up similar to rad vs hard targets was with regard to non-high recharge builds and only from on offensive standpoint. With enough recharge to have benumb up even 75% of the time it isn't even close anymore, cold is just great.
I know I got a laugh the first time I ran the numbers on the -recharge and saw that a single cold could make a serious dent in AV's despite their near immunity to the effect while HL was up. Literally, cold domination.
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Every mob performance is nice, but I don't discount aim and buildup simply because they are up every second mob. HL is an "i win" button that is up every 3-6th mob depending on speed. It's sort of like when a blaster nukes a spawn and you quickly move on to the next, but instead of one person doing all the damage you make everyone contribute to that quick kill speed and then turbo charge them until it is up again with unlimited endurance. So really, nothing like a nuke lol, but it is a great "i win" button.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Ah there we go, yeah that I wasn't. But I usually also judge by what can be used every mob, so I dont hold that in very high regard. sleet on its own though I wouldn't go to say that the set is "super" offensive. (don't count AV only via benumbs -regen enough to warrant it a title in this, its great for them, just saying as a set its relatively rare)
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Sleet alone puts the set on the cusp of being "super offensive" it is just that good of a power. Bare in mind though it is in comparison to the other buff/debuff options available. Benumb is mentioned because it shows that cold has little issue moving from minion munching to taking down the big stuff, unlike kinetics which is unparalleled in minion munching, but quickly falls behind vs hard single targets.
Cold (and rad) are the only two that are consistently awesome regardless of what you face. And cold is better at it than rad, but has the requirement of needing decent recharge and maturing very late.
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| Would be nice if they'd hurry and give controllers traps already. |
I too am eagerly awaiting the arrival of traps as it seems like since defenders got it people are finally realizing just how potent the set can be. Controllers will be able to showcase it in a way that is unmatched and the sheer number of awesome x/traps trollers possible should do wonders for the set.
If nothing else the increase in availability/popularity will force the devs to correct the wrong animations on triage/PT/acid, which will be nice.
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I wasn't aware that 125% damage to to the team for controllers/150% for defenders and 150-200% constant -regen, unlimited endurance, and 50% recharge boost to your teammates made it so difficult to kill hard targets...| Sleet alone puts the set on the cusp of being "super offensive" it is just that good of a power. Bare in mind though it is in comparison to the other buff/debuff options available. Benumb is mentioned because it shows that cold has little issue moving from minion munching to taking down the big stuff, unlike kinetics which is unparalleled in minion munching, but quickly falls behind vs hard single targets. |
Vs, single targets, you're missing a lot on the rad vs your cold. Even granting you have benumb perma, and Heat loss is up 1/3 of the time, and since it is a bug assuming you have the debuff of sleet perma:
Benumb vs Lingering radiation, assuming perma benumb, they cancel out equaling -regen
Sleet vs. Rad toggles, same -resistance/-defense
So we're looking at the benefits of Perma AM, versus the extra -defense in benumb and the 1/3 of the time -30% resistance in Heat Loss.
The extra -defense in benumb, I find after infridgidate/radiation infection to, although its a high number, not mean much outside of mary macomber and maybe black swan after the -defense you're already doing. most people have enough ACC slotted they're capping their chance to hit as is pre-benumb. The -30% resistance is severely diminished with AV's resistances, whereas the 30% damage buff on AM is going for full effect.
Now the -resistance in nature is stronger cause it is going off of your slotted damage, but the 30% (someone help me out on AV scaling) is far below that 30% -resistance. Add in the perma +recharge boost of AM too, I'd still EASILY say the Rad is ahead of the cold in terms of taking down AVs. Not by much, but it offers more where other powers vs AVs start to cancel out. Not to mention Rad gets all of the good powers very early on, not at tier 8 and 9 like Cold does (still need to bump sleet up earlier GRR!) This is also not even including the debuffs of EMPulse or Fallout as they're too situational IMO, but they are still there to top off the Rad over the cold if implemented.
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Oh boy, there is so much incorrect information in that post my eye is twitching.
Here's a fun little exercise that might help. Tell me specifically what happens if I hit (an even con) Valkyrie AV with Benumb when she rezzes and before she hits MOG. When you can answer that question in detail this conversation can proceed. In the mean time I'm going to PM Castle about the sleet/freezing rain bug again, maybe that will stop the twitching.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Oh boy, there is so much incorrect information in that post my eye is twitching.
Here's a fun little exercise that might help. Tell me specifically what happens if I hit (an even con) Valkyrie AV with Benumb when she rezzes and before she hits MOG. When you can answer that question in detail this conversation can proceed. In the mean time I'm going to PM Castle about the sleet/freezing rain bug again, maybe that will stop the twitching. |
Oops, not wrong information, just forgot to mention I was using defender values as it was easier than calculating the troller values since red tomax doesn't have it updated for it.
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A Kinetic can triple stack Siphon Power and FS for -80% damage done and triple stack Siphon Speed for -60% recharge.
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We are discussing x/cold not cold/x|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Oops, not wrong information, just forgot to mention I was using defender values as it was easier than calculating the troller values since red tomax doesn't have it updated for it.
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http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/
or
log in game and read values off of your /cold and /rad trollers.
It wasn't just wrong information about cold though, I would just correct that and move on. There was flawed information about game mechanics as well and wrong information about what certain powers do.
Anyway, for whatever reason, the devs decided not to scale cold debuffs properly (using all other sets as precedent) when they gave it to defenders. What can I say, it's not the first time they have put 50% effort in to something and called it done. Thankfully we aren't discussing cold defenders as they are an entire different discussion from /cold
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Snow Storm, Frostworks and to a lesser extent, Glacial Shield|
Originally Posted by Silencer7
What do you think is skippable in /cold?
Even with ill/, which can get away with skipping a bunch of things in the primary, I find myself wanting to take everything in the secondary. |
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Arctic Fog is almost a copy of Steamy Mist (it is missing the confusion protection according to CoD). I would not say that an AoE Stealth compares at all to Superior Invis in terms of invisibility, but if you have GI, you don't need SI no matter what the secondary. However, if you take another stealth power or use a stealth IO, you can drop GI too. You lose the ability to Invis the team when they go out of your AoE, but you gain a power slot. On my Ill/Storm, I took Super Speed + Steamy Mist and skipped both GI and SI. Plus, Super Speed is better for Herd-i-caning.
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Arctic Fog - positional defense and -recharge resistance
both are rather nice, though for PvE, I'd prefer the -recharge res
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
Snow Storm, Frostworks and to a lesser extent, Glacial Shield
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For an Illusion Snow Storm is handy since you don't have many other ways of stopping things scattering from Sleet.
However you can skip the invisibles in Illusion since you can get a Stealth IO to combine with the toggle in Cold to basically give you the same thing.
With the bug in sleet you almost want things to scatter so that it actually works. Almost.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
With the bug in sleet you almost want things to scatter so that it actually works. Almost.
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What's the bug, it's been a while since I've been on my Illusion/Storm (I assume it's the same for both Sleet and FR?). Is it that the debuff lasts 15 seconds but the no stack is lasting 30?*
If your target stays under the rain all debuffs expire after 15 seconds and none of the delayed effects kick in.
If your targets leaves the rain at any point the debuff lasts the 30 sec after and the delayed effects kick in.
As a stormy it almost makes more sense to drop FR on them and then gale them all out of it after a bit so that it actually works like it is supposed to.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
We are discussing x/cold not cold/x
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/ or log in game and read values off of your /cold and /rad trollers. It wasn't just wrong information about cold though, I would just correct that and move on. There was flawed information about game mechanics as well and wrong information about what certain powers do. Anyway, for whatever reason, the devs decided not to scale cold debuffs properly (using all other sets as precedent) when they gave it to defenders. What can I say, it's not the first time they have put 50% effort in to something and called it done. Thankfully we aren't discussing cold defenders as they are an entire different discussion from /cold |
Yes I already know we are discussing /cold, already mentioned the tomax site i was using didn't have the values, cold/ vs rad/ = /cold vs /rad they scale between values so it doesn't really matter in the discussion. If its not scaled properly between defenders and controllers that's not my fault. From the page you linked, it actually looks like defenders have their proper value, and controllers were not scaled down properly. (ie 30% -res/-def for sleet where it should be 22.5% etc)
As to the flawed information about game mechanics and wrong information about what certain powers do, you're going to have to clarify on that.
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I'll give you three clues because I'm not really in the mood to be overly nice anymore. I also believe people that take the time to actually learn something have a greater understanding of it than those that are just told the information
1. Once you understand the mechanics of benumb it will invariably mean you understand more of the game and will cease saying things like:
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2. You don't seem to understand the mechanics of -res and quite possibly the mechanics of +dam based on this statement:| The extra -defense in benumb |
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| The -30% resistance is severely diminished with AV's resistances, whereas the 30% damage buff on AM is going for full effect. |
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| already mentioned the tomax site i was using didn't have the values, cold/ vs rad/ = /cold vs /rad they scale between values so it doesn't really matter in the discussion. If its not scaled properly between defenders and controllers that's not my fault. |
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On point two I think he was referring to this:|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I'll give you three clues because I'm not really in the mood to be overly nice anymore. I also believe people that take the time to actually learn something have a greater understanding of it than those that are just told the information
1. Once you understand the mechanics of benumb it will invariably mean you understand more of the game and will cease saying things like: 2. You don't seem to understand the mechanics of -res and quite possibly the mechanics of +dam based on this statement: 3. You need to do more research if you think controller sleet should been scaled down to 22.5%. I'd suggest seeking the source of cold, then comparing it to storm, for a greater understanding. All this information is readily available if you log in your /rad controller and/or your /cold controller. My hope is you aren't speaking from a position of authority without having actual first hand knowledge of these sets. At the very least you can just go to the character creator and see the information. Additionally Mid's has all the info, it helps to know how to access the various summoned pets, but isn't vital. So whether you take responsibility for fact checking, or pin it on someone else that doesn't exist, is not really my problem. But it is a bit frustrating when you make statements that aren't based on the actual sets involved because you are making assumptions from some other semi-related comparison. |
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Resist...28Mechanics%29
On point three, the reason the Sleet isn't effected is because the scaling does not apply to powers that summon objects/temp pets. Tar Patch, Rain of Fire, Dark Servant, etc all don't scale down either.
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AV's don't have any special resistance to resistance debuffs. Yes resistance itself resists the debuff, but it is not unique to AV's. In fact very few AV's even have very much damage resistance at all, and it is rarely in very large doses. Of course there are a few that have god modes, but the same can be said about normal npcs.|
Originally Posted by Max_zero
On point two I think he was referring to this:
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Resist...28Mechanics%29 |
30% -res will ALWAYS increase your final damage by 30%. If the target has 99% res and you hit it with sleet you will still do 30% more damage than before.
Similar to how 30% +dam will always add 30% damage.
If -res were unresistable in pve they would probably make some drastic changes to it, such as lowering the values a lot because they give npcs resistance for a reason.
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| On point three, the reason the Sleet isn't effected is because the scaling does not apply to powers that summon objects/temp pets. Tar Patch, Rain of Fire, Dark Servant, etc all don't scale down either. |
Defender Sleet is the same as controller and the heatloss pseodo-pet has the same version shared between def/troller, but differs when looking at the corr one. Anyone trying to find rhyme or reason when examining the consistency of pseodo-pet application would probably go nuts.
If you look closely at the "pet" powers you'll find so many mistakes that you wouldn't even know where to begin fixing them. Like did you know that corruptors actually drain more endurance with transference than defenders, but gain back considerably less?
It also grants more suppressed defense than SI, so if you being attacked arc fog will protect you more (positionally at least as it currently doesn't offer typed protection). Also the needs of the team > individual, but it is an easy choice as it is better anyway.
It's not as good for invisibility as SI, but that really doesn't matter as you can get full invis very easily through superspeed, or stealth IO. You can't get -rech protection aside from 20% in winters gift (which if you stack with Arc Fog, makes you almost immune to -rech/speed debuffs).
For cold, just like storm, I too prefer to stack the aoe stealth with superspeed rather than pick up SI and/or GI.
edit: now if the sleet bug could be fixed so the power actually debuffed for the proper duration instead of 15 seconds that would be great.