I wish this was already something that has been implemented, because as it stands now that could probably take a lot of the devs time just to develop something like that, if it would also alow us to choose the animations and all that jazz.
I'd like it but it's still gonna take a lot of dev time to develop, of course in the long run it could save them time, but idk if they are willing to use their time at this current stage in the game to develop someithing like this.
Never happen you obviously don't realize how complex something like that would be.
The people that they would trust to do work like this are both already doing it and don't need the developers to create new tools to tell us how to do it.
Firstly!
Incredibly Sticky Wicket from the legal department's PoV. Contracts to anyone who submits anything that gets accepted, possible reimbursement, and if they decide NOT to implement -your- version of dual chainsaw defense and instead design their own there's a whole legal battle on the back end based on who designed it first.
Secondly.
Manhours. It would take a ton of time to check balance metrics and design against the various player submitted powersets. Likely more than are currently used to design powersets from scratch.
Thirdly!
Most of the talent on the internet is poor. Very poor. Go to Elfwood and flip through all the artists you can stand to. How many had okay art? How many had great art? How many had art that made you want to gouge out your eyes with a twizzler? Think of that. Now make that your -job-. Sifting through a metric ton of garbage every day trying to find the handful of good ideas and well designed powersets.
So yeah. PROBABLY not going to happen.
-Rachel-
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Firstly, not as sticky as you might think. We already sign over a form of consent to use our intellectual property just from signing in and creating characters. Reimbursement would never need to be involved, but it would be another plus wouldn't it? Could be a way to scout new talent...after all they've already done that with MA.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Firstly!
Incredibly Sticky Wicket from the legal department's PoV. Contracts to anyone who submits anything that gets accepted, possible reimbursement, and if they decide NOT to implement -your- version of dual chainsaw defense and instead design their own there's a whole legal battle on the back end based on who designed it first. Secondly. Manhours. It would take a ton of time to check balance metrics and design against the various player submitted powersets. Likely more than are currently used to design powersets from scratch. Thirdly! Most of the talent on the internet is poor. Very poor. Go to Elfwood and flip through all the artists you can stand to. How many had okay art? How many had great art? How many had art that made you want to gouge out your eyes with a twizzler? Think of that. Now make that your -job-. Sifting through a metric ton of garbage every day trying to find the handful of good ideas and well designed powersets. So yeah. PROBABLY not going to happen. -Rachel- |
Secondly, I don't think so, but I would assume in the kit would be a playable environment to test out the powers and a full list of the numbers (not that we don't already have most of them) to let the people creating these sets the ability to try to balance them themselves... Any powers that are extremely unbalanced in submission would be extremely obvious and all of the "acceptable" ones would have to go through balancing anyhow at some point. As long as they are close enough I don't see how this could take up more man hours... yeah more powers means more time spent balancing them across the board when they all need to be, but that happens anyways they would just be another extra number to juggle and I don't see that as a problem... It's more a willingness issue than anything imo...
Thirdly, this is 2 things... the talent out there is not poor. There is a lot and a lot of people like to try even if they aren't good and a lot of people have a false sense of their abilities. There are more greatly talented people out there in obscurity than there are in any industry and that has always been the case. The reason you think it's more so a bunch of schlock is as mentioned above there is a lot that are learning or throwing their hat in to see what they really can do, but there are a ton of people out there that ARE able to do it and to very high if not better standards than professional standards (not a slight on the dev team)...
And the second part... there are people that are paid to do data entry... you know how incredibly painful and mind numbing data entry is? I'd rather take a job as someone who has to sift through animations and numbers possibly seeing something cool and adding it to something i love than I would like to do any sort of data entry (which is btw why data entry is paid well >.>)
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Originally Posted by Umbral
The people that they would trust to do work like this are both already doing it and don't need the developers to create new tools to tell us how to do it.
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Originally Posted by Hydrofoil_Zero
Never happen you obviously don't realize how complex something like that would be.
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From Positron here.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Firstly, not as sticky as you might think. We already sign over a form of consent to use our intellectual property just from signing in and creating characters. Reimbursement would never need to be involved, but it would be another plus wouldn't it? Could be a way to scout new talent...after all they've already done that with MA.
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I know you may get alot of this but I've written down a few ideas for content for later issues would you guys mind taking a look at?
Posi- Paragon, like most studios, does not accept unsolicited work. This is due to the legal nature of the fact that we might be working on the exact same idea.
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| As long as they are close enough I don't see how this could take up more man hours... yeah more powers means more time spent balancing them across the board when they all need to be, but that happens anyways they would just be another extra number to juggle and I don't see that as a problem... It's more a willingness issue than anything imo... |
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| Thirdly, this is 2 things... the talent out there is not poor. |
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| And the second part... there are people that are paid to do data entry... you know how incredibly painful and mind numbing data entry is? I'd rather take a job as someone who has to sift through animations and numbers possibly seeing something cool and adding it to something i love than I would like to do any sort of data entry (which is btw why data entry is paid well >.>) |
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| Not true. Different dev teams use different tools for different purposes. Depending on the various processes used I know quite a few people that would be willing and able to do this... |
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How do you figure? We keep confounding the developers by exploiting powers THAT THEY DESIGNED to create overpowered results they didn't anticipate, and you're trying to suggest that player-designed overpowered concepts would be obvious? I don't buy that. Sets that they make go through months and months of testing and still end up in the game with potential glaring problems.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Any powers that are extremely unbalanced in submission would be extremely obvious and all of the "acceptable" ones would have to go through balancing anyhow at some point.
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| Actually I do, and that complexity is part of the natural deterrent I mentioned |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Not quoting cuz i don't feel like it...try to follow along...
Umbral...
No offense to Positron, but that is stupid, and it has been pointed out by a number of industry professionals. Also there are contractual things people would sign obviously to keep that from happening...and not to mention they wouldn't be "unsolicited" Not to mention that's a load of crap because if it wasn't this forum and number of things wouldn't exist and they've admitted to using player ideas which are unsolicited... so fail on many level on that one comment.
If you think "rebalancing takes as long as creating" the power, then you have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't say it was easy to do nor did I say that it didn't take time, but the time you are thinking it takes is just stupid.
This would not be like AE... The difference between what this would be and what AE is several orders of magnitude. It seems pretty obvious to me with this comment and the several others you are not actually paying attention to what is said and you have a negative out look on a lot of ideas proposed by your own admission thus it makes your opinion less credible and not to mention contradictory.
Samuel_Tow...
Yes and no... they would have the numbers, know what they do. It's not like they wouldn't make tweaks anyways, so it's not a problem. You're talking about ones that happen to be unbalanced through some combination of numbers while in that comment I am talking about unbalanced purposefully or just bad design skills... though would be easy to spot.
AE is not complex in it's usage. This is is a whole different type of beast we're talking about. while they both allow player generated content one essentially allows you to tap buttons randomly to allow you to get something out of it...the other would require actual skill.
I can just imagine the ammount of dross, like Chainsaw melee, Pistol melee, and stuff like that, they would get swamped with.
I know I *like* the idea myself. I also know that it would be a nightmare to work. Not work with anything, just work. At all.
The mental image is not pretty.
/Unsigned
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Please understand I say this with the utmost respect, but do you even listen to yourself? Remember the BotZ change? Remember the AoE caps change? Remember Poison Gas Trap and its proc storm? Remember Instant Healing? Remember Perma Elude/Unstoppable? Rmember MoG? Remember Psychic Shockwave? Remember Domination? Remember Defiance? Remember Hide and its mechanics? Remember Vigilance?|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Yes and no... they would have the numbers, know what they do. It's not like they wouldn't make tweaks anyways, so it's not a problem. You're talking about ones that happen to be unbalanced through some combination of numbers while in that comment I am talking about unbalanced purposefully or just bad design skills... though would be easy to spot.
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How about dumpster diving? How about Burn herding? How about Dreck farms? How about the numerous Architect exploits, like the Mastermind henchmen bug? How about all the custom farm missions? How about the badge exploits?
They can't get things to work right and they can't find all the exploits in content THEY MAKE THEMSELVES, and you're trying to suggest that they'd instantly and subconsciously KNOW when one out of a thousand submissions is using the wrong AT table and generating high values? Hell, recently Castle himself misspoke about the damage values of Shield Defence Shield Charge. I'm not sure he would have caught the wrong value on a cursory look through a hundred Shield Defence custom user prototypes. And I don't blame the guy - there are too many numbers to remember in the game, which is all the more reason why they can't just KNOW when something is potentially abusive.
And again, just having access to the numbers doesn't mean much. There's no way to procedurally make the software spit out what's overpowered, what's underpowered and what's play not going to work. Somebody has to LOOK at these numbers, understand them and then decide if they're going to work. And, no, you can't assume that most submissions are good and let them go through unless something in them is OBVIOUSLY wrong. ******** will try to pass forward subtly exploitable designs while idiots are going to pass forward subtly unplayable designs that someone has to greenlight BEFORE they get into the game. That's someone who's not going to be getting much else done pretty much ever at all.
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| AE is not complex in it's usage. This is is a whole different type of beast we're talking about. while they both allow player generated content one essentially allows you to tap buttons randomly to allow you to get something out of it...the other would require actual skill. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The very fact that you're assuming that most of the people on the internet are smart enough to play around with even the most cursory of number systems is pretty friggin' stupid. The very fact that you don't know how long and how much effort is involved in rebalancing a set without simply scrapping it and starting over thanks to the incredible amount of interplay between powers within a set simply shows that you don't have a clue about what's going on.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
If you think "rebalancing takes as long as creating" the power, then you have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't say it was easy to do nor did I say that it didn't take time, but the time you are thinking it takes is just stupid.
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| This would not be like AE... The difference between what this would be and what AE is several orders of magnitude. It seems pretty obvious to me with this comment and the several others you are not actually paying attention to what is said |
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| and you have a negative out look on a lot of ideas proposed by your own admission thus it makes your opinion less credible and not to mention contradictory. |
I don't have a problem with players generating powersets and suggesting them for fun. It happens all the time, and I've done it on more than one occasion. However, do not confuse the fact that I have no problem with powerset suggestions being posted on the forums with any admission that even half of the ideas posted are even remotely well balanced, intelligent, or, much less, feasible.
People are stupid. Half of the people in the world have a double digit IQ. Most people don't even know what balance looks like and even fewer have any idea about what the mechanics of the game are even when you explain them slowly and use pictures.
It's a massive waste of resources to create tools that players already have access to. If you want to make an attack set, there are already models and formulas to tell you how long attacks should recharge and how much endurance they should cost for how much damage they deal and how much area they cover. If you want to make a defense set, there are survivability spreadsheets that will tell you how strong the set is compared to all of the other sets in the game. If you want to make a control set, the model for those sets, along with the formulas that they follow, are all rather obvious if you actually look.
Your suggestion is that the devs should make tools for everyone that the people that actually generate intelligent, well made sets already have. These tools aren't being hoarded either. Everything that players use to determine the balance of specific powers and powersets is out there publicly. It's not even hard to find them (half of them you can find by just doing a cursory search of Arcanaville's posts). I can assure you, anything that the devs would put out with this suggestion, would be functionally identical to one of several other tools and formulas that already exist. Hell, half of what is involved in generating new sets is actually based around the precedent set by other similar powers rather than formulaic determination.
We will get AWESOME animation like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiARsQSlzDc
Also a general public tool set for any game engine are a bear in there own right to make...
Though on the plus side, not many people own the programs used in animation/model asset creation
This sounds completely insane, but let me explain...
The idea is that the devs give us a tool to make our own power sets... not sleek like MA, but rather something that is functional so that community members can use it to create full power sets for the game, balance, animate etc.
The reasoning behind this is that there are people in the community that are capable of doing the various parts if not the whole process and there are a number of ideas that the community has that are great, but it is a matter the time it takes to create and balance these things and the fact they could work on other things...
Of course it wouldn't be direct load so you would need a submission process and someone to look at them as well as a way to quick evaluate.
Now the main concern would be that there would be a flood and would eat up time or you would only get a few good ones in the heap of dung... but consider how hard it is to animate to the quality of whats liked in the game and balance the power sets to an acceptable degree. Not many people would actually take up the challenge or would be readily obvious that they aren't worth anything...
So what I think would happen is that several teams would form along with maybe an individual or 2 and they would produce new power sets every few months... This would give CoH a really cool thing to hold above over every other MMO (along with other things) and provide new powers pretty often... with little dev time being wasted... and not to mention we might get to crazy thing things like Clown Summoning which if the devs did it we would all probably be a bit upset, but if this created it we would all be happy...
So...
+ Would adds new content constantly.
+ Doesn't eat up much dev time for other things.
+ Adds Content that we would like, but wouldn't want devs to waste time on.
+ Has a built in natural deterrent for badly done submissions.
+ Gives an unique ability that no other MMO has.