Help Me Design This Set ! : Armor
By
5th_Player,
Posted on: 2010-04-29 22:50 in Suggestions and Ideas
Well, ... yeah, but we've already GOT sets with perfectly good elemental-style armors and defenses. And, most people want to design their character around the costume looking cool, not to be covered up or replaced by the powersets. That's why a lot of the ice powers and stone things have been tuned down a little over time.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
This is literally the "Not-elemental" armor set, much in the way Shields is a not-elemental set, but has elemental shields for the sake of visuals. The Armor/Powers are just as much apart of the costume, as, say, Weapons are as far as I'm concerned.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
A problem with a "close-fitting" armor graphic for a power is that it would very likely/often have horrible clipping. I do not believe such FX scale according to your sliders.
And, really, it seems like people would be better off just picking a power like, say, Invulnerability and then putting together a costume reflecting their armor. Methinks there would have to be a *really* unique aspect to the powers involved in order to make it appealing as a set.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I suppose "close-fitting" is a bit of a misnomer. I mean more along the lines of it not being as "large" as Rock-armor and the like, which forms more massive objects on your character's surface. | A problem with a "close-fitting" armor graphic for a power is that it would very likely/often have horrible clipping. I do not believe such FX scale according to your sliders. |
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| And, really, it seems like people would be better off just picking a power like, say, Invulnerability and then putting together a costume reflecting their armor. |
- Design a character who "transforms into their armor
- Design a character who visibly wears normal clothing under their armor
- Design a character who uses armor in a way that is currently not available in the costume creator
- do any combination of the three
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| Methinks there would have to be a *really* unique aspect to the powers involved in order to make it appealing as a set. |
I DID have an idea wherein the "Basic" armor toggles would set up a sort of "spectral wounds" system. Your Health replaced with sort of "False health" bar over the real one. You would take X amount of "fake" damage, before the toggle is forceably shut off, with a somewhat long recharge time, if it is. Each toggle would represent a signifigant segment of your "Fake" health, and when they were all gone, you'd be helpless, like a hermit crab out of it's shell.
edit:
Ooooh, Further idea, the first four powers are the armor toggles, the rest are powers that keep hte toggles running, or boost them in some way!
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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That's just it - even as "large" as Rock Armor is, it clips severely when you increase your sliders such that you can end up obscuring much of the graphic. Were it smaller it would be completely obscured. |
Originally Posted by Premonitions
I suppose "close-fitting" is a bit of a misnomer. I mean more along the lines of it not being as "large" as Rock-armor and the like, which forms more massive objects on your character's surface.
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Well, see, the problem with this is someone may want to
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Actually I definitely agree, and that's pretty much why I'm making this thread, I DID have an idea wherein the "Basic" armor toggles would set up a sort of "spectral wounds" system. Your Health replaced with sort of "False health" bar over the real one. You would take X amount of "fake" damage, before the toggle is forceably shut off, with a somewhat long recharge time, if it is. Each toggle would represent a signifigant segment of your "Fake" health, and when they were all gone, you'd be helpless, like a hermit crab out of it's shell. edit: Ooooh, Further idea, the first four powers are the armor toggles, the rest are powers that keep hte toggles running, or boost them in some way! |
The "Edit" addendum is interesting as well, and similar to how I thought Shield Defense should work a toggle power with various Auto and Click powers that augment it.
Actually, if you ran with the ablative armor idea throughout the set you could create a pretty unique set. Say the armor is ablative with underlying deflective properties, you could have a set that has high resists at the upper end of the HP scale, but which relies on an increasing defense bonus as the resistance is worn away. I still think the graphics would end up having to be pretty bulky to work, though.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
You have two inherent problems when you try to sell a "just armour" powerset, and none of them have to do with numbers.
1. What kind of armour are we talking about? Knight's plate mail armour? Iron Man's techno suit armour? SWAT flack jacket? Freakshow "junk strapped to your chest" armour? Standard fantasy chainmail bikini armour? Just armour in and of itself covers far, FAR too many concepts for this to be feasible without specifying it somewhat. It'd be like making an attack set and calling it "weapon." Duh! What KIND of weapon?
2. The only real way you can institute several different armour toggles is to make each toggle be a different armour piece, kind of like how Assassin's Creed handles it. One toggle is shoulder pads, one toggle is a chest plate, one toggle is leg guards and so forth. You really can't make an armour set that puts five vests on top of each other. The problem with that is you're basically getting down to basic costume creation, because that's what costume creation does - it allows you to pick your shoulders, vests, grieves and so forth. This becomes a set that swaps out your costume pieces and, given how I design many of my characters, possibly swapping them for smaller and less protective-looking ones.
I have a hard time imagining how one could overcome these problems, to be honest. As far as I can see, you're much better off just using costumes themselves to mimic that and not bothering with powersets doing it for you. Costume change emotes plus your five slots should offer more than enough variety in armour, and you can grab your first slot for money at level one. Money that you can now e-mail to yourself from more affluent characters you own.
I can honestly understand your desire to have armour on top of regular clothes, but to be honest, you already sort of CAN. We are still missing a few crucial pieces that could help with that, which are basically upper leg details and some kind of detail that first over lower legs and lower arms. You could probably bug Jay for this, or you can post in David's new thread on the subject and voice a request for detail pieces on more bodyparts. It should carry you a long way towards your ideal concept.
See, I've contemplated an "armour" set, myself. Many times, in fact. But I could never make it works simply because it was too redundant, too specific and too unwieldy. Costumes are very pliable exactly so they can take up just this kind of slack.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I may not have made this clear, but that is covered in how the set would be designed, |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You have two inherent problems when you try to sell a "just armour" powerset, and none of them have to do with numbers.
1. What kind of armour are we talking about? Knight's plate mail armour? Iron Man's techno suit armour? SWAT flack jacket? Freakshow "junk strapped to your chest" armour? Standard fantasy chainmail bikini armour? Just armour in and of itself covers far, FAR too many concepts for this to be feasible without specifying it somewhat. It'd be like making an attack set and calling it "weapon." Duh! What KIND of weapon? |
The graphics would be a Customizable Power, Ideally, there'd be a "HeavY" and "Light" option for each armor type customization,and it'd be determined in the same way that spikes is.
The very point of this set is to allow for a wide range of Concepts, and to add the wiggle room in with Customization. The closest example I can give is Shield Defense.
Shield Defense is "Just Shield" but you can customize your shield in endless ways, including High-tech, fantasy, and various elemental shields. This would, hopefully, work the same way, only instead of weapon customization, it woud fall under power customization.
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| 2. The only real way you can institute several different armour toggles is to make each toggle be a different armour piece, kind of like how Assassin's Creed handles it. One toggle is shoulder pads, one toggle is a chest plate, one toggle is leg guards and so forth. You really can't make an armour set that puts five vests on top of each other. |
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| That's just it - even as "large" as Rock Armor is, it clips severely when you increase your sliders such that you can end up obscuring much of the graphic. Were it smaller it would be completely obscured |
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| The ablative armor is an interesting idea, but the implementation would probably end up more like a Dull Pain power. |
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| Perhaps it could be such a power with the addition of a Smash/Lethal Resist that goes down as your health decreases (kinda the opposite of Super Reflexes' Resistance bonus). |
You have armor on, but as the enemy chips away at it, you become more exposed. I wonder if getting weaker as you approach death might not make things too difficult, though
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| The "Edit" addendum is interesting as well, and similar to how I thought Shield Defense should work a toggle power with various Auto and Click powers that augment it. |
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| Actually, if you ran with the ablative armor idea throughout the set you could create a pretty unique set. Say the armor is ablative with underlying deflective properties, you could have a set that has high resists at the upper end of the HP scale, but which relies on an increasing defense bonus as the resistance is worn away. I still think the graphics would end up having to be pretty bulky to work, though. |
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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Here's my question, though - how is this superior to using the costume creator itself, which seems to me to have more power in customization than what you're looking to design. If you're basically adding/replacing costume pieces, don't you have a far greater selection of designs using the costume editor than a custom powerset will ever provide?|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
The very point of this set is to allow for a wide range of Concepts, and to add the wiggle room in with Customization. The closest example I can give is Shield Defense.
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Shields serve a purpose for one simple reason - they are analogous to a weapon, in that you don't wear them as clothes and you don't carry them if you're not going to defend yourself. You can have a helmet without having Helmet Defence, but you can't have a shield without Shield Defence. It wouldn't make sense. Shields, therefore, get a context exception.
But armour isn't really something you need to work to use. Armour you simply wear. Current armour sets like Stone Armour and Ice Armour, though possibly replicable with costume pieces, come with exotic mechanics unique to the concept of the element they draw from. I re-read your original post, and I still can't tell what is mechanically, functionally and inherently so exotic about the concept of armour that it requires its own powerset.
I don't mean to shoot down, but I just don't think either the mechanics or visuals of this aren't better served by existing systems.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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When I get -really- tired after a long fight all my armor falls off.
"Endurance" works for pretty much every powerset there is. Call it ammo for Dual pistols and AR, or just what it is for any set where you swing a sword.
But when my End hits 0 in the middle of combat and my plate-mail armor falls off? It makes no sense.
The Ablative armor idea is really spectacular! Unfortunately I don't think there's a way to make it work. If you do the Dull Pain route (Grants a bonus to Maximum HP) you'll wind up with a higher regenerative rate, since it's purely percentage based. This could throw the set out of whack as the player starts regenerating huge amounts of HP every second. Plus it'd be a pain in the neck for the player as their "Armored HP" drops. The ablative Damage resistance is neat, but outside of a timer I don't think it would work (30% damres for 60 seconds, -.5% damres per second, for example) which means your armor is falling apart when it's -not- being hit...
The engine simply doesn't have a way of determining how many hits you've taken in relation to how many you're -able- to, only how much damage is incoming.
As for the "Armored Up" appearance... The engine -cannot- replace specific pieces of the player's costume. It can overlay (Like the Freakshow Disguise) or replace the character's model (like the Midnighter Disguise) there is no middle ground. So any armor pieces you put -onto- the costume would clip with any costume pieces in those slots, currently. You can't "Replace" a character's hairstyle with a helmet, for example. Or their "Banded Techbot" gloves with gauntlets. You can only overlap/overlay them or replace the whole model.
So! Yeah. I like the idea of an "Armor" armor set, but it just won't function as it's been suggested, I'm afraid.
-Rachel-
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A version of it is in Invulnerability and I think a couple of other sets as well. It is a click power that heals you some and gives you a bonus to max HP. I think it's more likely they would go this route than add some sort of phantom HP bar if they were going for the effect you describe.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
Okay, I haven't played aroudn enough with willpower to know how Dull Pain works, do you think you could dumb it down for me?
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I like this, from a thematic perspective. You have armor on, but as the enemy chips away at it, you become more exposed. I wonder if getting weaker as you approach death might not make things too difficult, though |
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
The Ablative armor idea is really spectacular! Unfortunately I don't think there's a way to make it work. If you do the Dull Pain route (Grants a bonus to Maximum HP) you'll wind up with a higher regenerative rate, since it's purely percentage based. This could throw the set out of whack as the player starts regenerating huge amounts of HP every second. Plus it'd be a pain in the neck for the player as their "Armored HP" drops. The ablative Damage resistance is neat, but outside of a timer I don't think it would work (30% damres for 60 seconds, -.5% damres per second, for example) which means your armor is falling apart when it's -not- being hit...
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Personally, I'm not keen on the whole concept of an 'armor' armor set, but the ablative armor mechanic might be cool...|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
A version of it is in Invulnerability and I think a couple of other sets as well. It is a click power that heals you some and gives you a bonus to max HP. I think it's more likely they would go this route than add some sort of phantom HP bar if they were going for the effect you describe.
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Thinking out loud:
-What if there was a click power that granted you an invisible pet.
-This pet would be linked to the caster to take damage in the caster's place (think MM Bodyguard but the pet take all the damage).
-If need be, make the caster 'Untouchable' while the pet is alive.
-Like MM pets, when you cast it, the 'Armor' appears in a pet window so you know how much damage it could take before you have to 'summon' it again.
-Of course, the pet is unbuffable and unhealable by teammates. You could have powers in the set that 'repair' or 'enhance' your 'armor' pet though.
...basically, it's like taking a Mastermind set and replacing the pets with personal armor...almost exactly that...actually, I'd want this to be a MM set...like a mech suit mastermind or something >_>
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I was thinking that the whole pet idea would be a neat tier 9 power, then you mentioned a Mech Armor Mastermind and my brain did a flip.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Personally, I'm not keen on the whole concept of an 'armor' armor set, but the ablative armor mechanic might be cool...
Thinking out loud: -What if there was a click power that granted you an invisible pet. -This pet would be linked to the caster to take damage in the caster's place (think MM Bodyguard but the pet take all the damage). -If need be, make the caster 'Untouchable' while the pet is alive. -Like MM pets, when you cast it, the 'Armor' appears in a pet window so you know how much damage it could take before you have to 'summon' it again. -Of course, the pet is unbuffable and unhealable by teammates. You could have powers in the set that 'repair' or 'enhance' your 'armor' pet though. ...basically, it's like taking a Mastermind set and replacing the pets with personal armor...almost exactly that...actually, I'd want this to be a MM set...like a mech suit mastermind or something >_> |
Each of the pets could be a weapon system, attacking enemies automatically, and the Bodyguard mode simulates the armored aspect well enough on its own. The best part is, is that you'd be the only Mastermind not worried about your pets getting in everyone else's way, or having to position them. That almost deserves its own thread!
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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See, this I can get behind. THAT sort of mechanic requires armour and isn't doable with just costume pieces.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I was thinking that the whole pet idea would be a neat tier 9 power, then you mentioned a Mech Armor Mastermind and my brain did a flip.
Each of the pets could be a weapon system, attacking enemies automatically, and the Bodyguard mode simulates the armored aspect well enough on its own. The best part is, is that you'd be the only Mastermind not worried about your pets getting in everyone else's way, or having to position them. That almost deserves its own thread! |
Basically, how about this:
Instead of damage resistance, each added armour piece would be kind of like a pet that takes a percentage of incoming damage with a specific level of health of its own. So, the armour would stop some damage, but would get damaged itself and break off eventually, requiring you to reapply the armour. Hence, the set will have no toggles and only very costly clicks, but would have to support its armour by reapplying it when it breaks.
OK, that I can get behind!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Of course, in the case of a Tanker-type set most of them couldn't be weapon systems. But it would still be very interesting. A defensive/armor set that's all or mostly clicks...|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Basically, how about this:
Instead of damage resistance, each added armour piece would be kind of like a pet that takes a percentage of incoming damage with a specific level of health of its own. So, the armour would stop some damage, but would get damaged itself and break off eventually, requiring you to reapply the armour. Hence, the set will have no toggles and only very costly clicks, but would have to support its armour by reapplying it when it breaks. OK, that I can get behind! |
Maybe throw in at least one Lock-On targetted toggle (say, 40' range?) that fires a minor damage small AoE (8-10' radius?) attack at the target every 5-10 seconds, possibly in place of a more standard taunt aura.
Any way you go with it, the concept is very intriguing to me.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Yeah, when it was presented as "just armour" I didn't find it very interesting, as it was highly redundant, but as breakable armour (on all powers) the set has a lot of merit, as it introduces basically an entirely new gameplay element. Provided this is even possible with how our powers are implemented, such a thing would play unlike any defence set we currently have, with the possible exception of Rgeneration, to which it would be only vaguely close.
I actually think the game could stand to have an exotic set or two along those lines.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The only problem I can see with this (assuming that the bodyguard mechanic can be repurposed to a specific powerset rather than a specific AT) is that it could make the set incredibly light on the endurance bar. Unless the clicks were short duration (i.e. only just barely perma out of the box so you have to click them rather often), you'd be capable of clicking them very rarely, especially if there were heals or other effects present.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Instead of damage resistance, each added armour piece would be kind of like a pet that takes a percentage of incoming damage with a specific level of health of its own. So, the armour would stop some damage, but would get damaged itself and break off eventually, requiring you to reapply the armour. Hence, the set will have no toggles and only very costly clicks, but would have to support its armour by reapplying it when it breaks.
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Of course, I also doubt that the set would ever get off the ground without any toggles. You pretty much need to have some baseline survivability that is active at all times and not contingent on the variability of clickability, so I would predict that the set would have at least 2-3 toggles powers, 2-3 passive powers, and that the remainder of the set would be the click powers that operate in the ablative manner (probably while applying a secondary buff of some kind like +def, +regen, +recov, or the kind). Having an entire set comprised of click powers starts getting complicated because you begin using an inordinate amount of animation time (which is already a problem when you're balancing pure toggle sets against more animation time intensive sets like FA and Regen).
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Thinking Umbral is right...|
Originally Posted by Umbral
The only problem I can see with this (assuming that the bodyguard mechanic can be repurposed to a specific powerset rather than a specific AT) is that it could make the set incredibly light on the endurance bar. Unless the clicks were short duration (i.e. only just barely perma out of the box so you have to click them rather often), you'd be capable of clicking them very rarely, especially if there were heals or other effects present.
Of course, I also doubt that the set would ever get off the ground without any toggles. You pretty much need to have some baseline survivability that is active at all times and not contingent on the variability of clickability, so I would predict that the set would have at least 2-3 toggles powers, 2-3 passive powers, and that the remainder of the set would be the click powers that operate in the ablative manner (probably while applying a secondary buff of some kind like +def, +regen, +recov, or the kind). Having an entire set comprised of click powers starts getting complicated because you begin using an inordinate amount of animation time (which is already a problem when you're balancing pure toggle sets against more animation time intensive sets like FA and Regen). |
However it's also feasible to create a toggle pet power, I imagine. One with a moderate to long recharge time. When your pet hits 0hp, the toggle auto-clicks off. That could put the ablative into the whole set, and have the "Click" powers be "Pet Heal" powers to rebuff your armor's HP. It would function (mainly) as a Damage Resistance set, I imagine. Just an exceptionally strong one, since your pets can die (risk versus reward)
-Rachel-
I don't think having the set light on toggles and endurance is a particular issue. Or is there some kind of formula governing how much energy an armor set must expend? And how are the outlier sets balanced around this? (i.e. Regen only has 1 toggle + a recovery inherent and Dark Armor has 7 toggles and no recovery bonus; then you've got WP with .84 end/sec toggles + recover vs Shields with .78 end/sec toggles + mez click every 120sec).
That said, you don't have to have the idea set being only clicks. You can certainly add in 2 toggles that give the character a baseline buff + improves the 'armor pet' clicks while active. Like, a toggle that improves base regen by a decent degree while slightly improving the regen of your pets. Also, a mez toggle because it'd be a pain needing to worry about keeping a pet alive to keep your mez protection.
There you go, 2 toggles ontop of whatever other powers anyone else can think of ^^
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Here's my question, though - how is this superior to using the costume creator itself, which seems to me to have more power in customization than what you're looking to design. If you're basically adding/replacing costume pieces, don't you have a far greater selection of designs using the costume editor than a custom powerset will ever provide? Shields serve a purpose for one simple reason - they are analogous to a weapon, in that you don't wear them as clothes and you don't carry them if you're not going to defend yourself. You can have a helmet without having Helmet Defence, but you can't have a shield without Shield Defence. It wouldn't make sense. Shields, therefore, get a context exception. |
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When I get -really- tired after a long fight all my armor falls off. "Endurance" works for pretty much every powerset there is. Call it ammo for Dual pistols and AR, or just what it is for any set where you swing a sword. But when my End hits 0 in the middle of combat and my plate-mail armor falls off? It makes no sense. |
a "Before I go into battle, I put my Armor on" kind of thing.
I honestly first devised this set explicitly as a "Power" instead of an "equipment" set, and Called it "Armor Generation" I.e. Your character created armor on the fly, but I just felt that was
A: kinda annoyingly specific, and
B: Just didn't "pop" for me.
Being armored in a way that's not currently in the game is a power used by characters like Colussus of the X-men, The Guyver, and Iron Man in current books. I call this set "Armor" because I felt that it would serve the most concepts without getting too specific. I made comparisons to shields in this regard, where does the shield come from? What is it made of? How do you pull it out of nowhere?(Though, In saying my set serves people who use armor NOT as a power, and more like you two are thinking, I pretty much use the same policy usually applied to the weapon sets in this game I.E. "I Don't Know" :P) By just calling the set "armor" and Allowing for a wide array of customization, I leave those specifics up to the player, while occupying a niche currently not filled.
Speaking of
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But armour isn't really something you need to work to use. Armour you simply wear. Current armour sets like Stone Armour and Ice Armour, though possibly replicable with costume pieces, come with exotic mechanics unique to the concept of the element they draw from. I re-read your original post, and I still can't tell what is mechanically, functionally and inherently so exotic about the concept of armour that it requires its own powerset. |
When you Create an "X-Y" set, you're gonna run up against deciding whether to focus more on "X" or more on "Y".
This is most signifigant with "armor" sets. Armor means you are coated in something protective. But add "Stone" in front of it, and now you're coated in protective Rock. Now, Make me ten forms of that. If my focus was more on "armor", creating a protective surface that is worn, it would be a very daunting task, but if my focus was on "Stone" I have leeway to make powers like Rooted, Minerals, Mud Pots, and Earth's Embrace,things that are less explicitly armor, and more specifically stone.
An "Armor" set is one with it's focus firmly in Protective gear, Like Shield Defense is focused firmly In a Protective object, Leaving what that object is made of or how it works up to the player. Imagine if there were five or so "Elemental" shield powersets, and no "Shield" power set, and every single one was very, very specific in it's nature, so it couldn't really be played as a shield that granted no extra powers, because "Fire Shield" makes your shield Shoot fire as a taunt aura, and "Electric Shield" Had Power Surge.
Anyways, Going back to my concept, I've come up with a few powers, Still operating under the "Fake Health" premise, though the pet suggestions have opened up some new ideas, for more strategy, more on that later. All of tis is just preliminary, mind, and very open to change.
Armor:
The set would be built around the four primary toggles, with the remaining five powers(the Tier 9 is a bit different) focusing on enhancing their effect. each Toggle has it's own resistances or Defenses, and would take a sizeable chunk of damage done to your character for them (not ALL of the damage, but most of it),
Power 1:
Represents 40 Percent of your "Fake Health"(or 20 if They all had to be equal, which They would with the pet premise, more later,) and would be the last piece of armor to be "Destroyed" due to being the final fourty percent
Chest plate:
Toggle Power, This power would have a high resistance to Smashing and Lethal damage.
Endurance cost: Very low
Recharge:near Instant when de-toggled, either by choice, or by Runing out of Endurance Very, Very long if "destroyed"
Visual Effect:
This Would Activate an Overlay effect of the players choice over the torso area, and/or the shoulders if the armor type they selected had shoulder pads.
Power 2:
Represents 15 percent of your "fake health" and would be the first to go, being the first 15 percent
Gauntlets:
Toggle power:
Has medium Defense against ranged and Melee offensive attacks(The premise being you're actively blocking with them, also the reason they go first, as they're the "first line" of defense, being used in a reactive manner instead of pasive like the others) also has a minor resistance to -damage( they can make you weaker, but you're still wearing hard gloves to hit them with/put your weight behind)
Endurance cost: Very low
Recharge:near Instant when de-toggled, either by choice, or by Runing out of Endurance Very, Very long if "destroyed"
Visual effect: Overlay over the forearms/and or the full upper and lower arms, depending on which armor type is selected for this power.
Power 3:
Represents 30% of your "fake Health", and is the third armor piece to go.
Helmet:
Toggle Power:
Has medium Resistance Against Psionic attacks (It's a Helmet) and a
Resistance to Confuse and stun
Endurance cost: Very low
Recharge:near Instant when de-toggled, either by choice, or by Runing out of Endurance Very, Very long if "destroyed"
Power 4:
Represents 15% of your health and is the second piece to be destroyed
Grieves:
Toggle
Stablized feet give you Defense against AoE as well as Knockback, Down, and Up
Endurance cost: Very low
Recharge:near Instant when de-toggled, either by choice, or by Runing out of Endurance Very, Very long if "destroyed"
Power 5: Repair
Click: Heals damage done to your "false" health
Endurance: High
Recharge:Very Long
Power Six: Fire Proofing/Insulation/ Grounding/Hermetic seal( Gotta pick one)
Auto:
Grants an added resistance to either fire, cold,Toxic, or electric (Haven't decided, possibly a combination of the two, and call it Undercoat) whenever your toggles are active
Power Seven: Reinforce
Click
Endurance: Very High
Recharge: Very Long
Effect:
Boosts the resistances/defenses of your currently active toggles, doesn't effect Armor-set toggles not active when the power is used, doesn't effect toggles from other sets, Effect doesn't work for powers if they were active when the power was used, then deactivated either through being destroyed, being purposefully deactivated, or running out of endurance, then activated again.
Power Eight: Restore
Click:
Endurance high
Recharge: Very Long
Instantly recharges one of your armor toggles
Power Nine: Full Coverage
Toggle
effect:
Summons a full Suit of armor, It has very high Defense against melee, ranged, and AoE, but none of the resistances of the other sets.
Endurance: High
Recharge: Very Long
Going over this preliminary set, It really just occured to me that the toggles could just as easily just increase your max HP, and have the same sort of effect
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
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I'll miss you all.
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The way I see it, these clicks would be endurance-bound, not recharge-bound. They'd be many times permanent out the box (say, 10s recharge, 5m duration), but would be limited by a high endurance cost, say 10-20 per click. This way, under low-damage conditions, your armour pieces would protect you without much endurance expended, just like how Regeneration doesn't have to use its clicks much. However, under high-damage conditions, cost would increase RAPIDLY as your armours get broken again and again and you're having to pay a pretty penny for regenerating them.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
The only problem I can see with this (assuming that the bodyguard mechanic can be repurposed to a specific powerset rather than a specific AT) is that it could make the set incredibly light on the endurance bar. Unless the clicks were short duration (i.e. only just barely perma out of the box so you have to click them rather often), you'd be capable of clicking them very rarely, especially if there were heals or other effects present.
Of course, I also doubt that the set would ever get off the ground without any toggles. You pretty much need to have some baseline survivability that is active at all times and not contingent on the variability of clickability, so I would predict that the set would have at least 2-3 toggles powers, 2-3 passive powers, and that the remainder of the set would be the click powers that operate in the ablative manner (probably while applying a secondary buff of some kind like +def, +regen, +recov, or the kind). Having an entire set comprised of click powers starts getting complicated because you begin using an inordinate amount of animation time (which is already a problem when you're balancing pure toggle sets against more animation time intensive sets like FA and Regen). |
In some way, this would actually play a lot like a Mastermind. A Mastermind generally doesn't pay anything for the use of his henchmen or the resistance benefit they provide. He doesn't need to run toggles to maintain the henchmen's existence, he just needs to summon them one and upgrade them twice, and then never do ANYTHING to them for the next 28 hour (99999s) or until the henchmen get killed. Realistically speaking, they WILL get killed before their ridiculously long timer runs out, which puts the Mastermind behind the 8-ball, having to pay a significant cost to recover a fallen henchman and reupgrade him. Typically, a henchmen tier costs 20 points to summon and 90 points to upgrade (45 points per henchman). All three tiers cost a total of around 150 points, sans reduction. Even if summons recharged instantly, you CANNOT resummon and reupgrade too many times per battle because you will simply run yourself dry.
Now, a Mastermind who's so cool he never loses henchmen will have almost no use for endurance whatsoever. A Mastermind in the thick of it losing henchmen left and right will have the kind of endurance drain that no other AT can even dream about, and I know this for a fact. I've always said that a Mastermind is only, solely and completely endurance-bound. Give a Mastermind enough endurance and he's unstoppable. Run a Mastermind out of endurance and he's crippled.
This is what I envision for this Armour set. Armours can be repaired quickly whenever they break, but each time they break, they take a SERIOUS toll to pull back up. Lose your armour enough times and you simply run out of endurance to keep recovering it. This is a lot like a toggle, only it's a toggle which costs more under heavy fire than it does standing around. As such, it will provide better performance when it's not really needed and worse performance when you push it to the max, which I feel is just the nature of the beast.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Several things you run into with this suggestion:|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
Anyways, Going back to my concept, I've come up with a few powers, Still operating under the "Fake Health" premise, though the pet suggestions have opened up some new ideas, for more strategy, more on that later. All of tis is just preliminary, mind, and very open to change.
Armor: The set would be built around the four primary toggles, with the remaining five powers(the Tier 9 is a bit different) focusing on enhancing their effect. each Toggle has it's own resistances or Defenses, and would take a sizeable chunk of damage done to your character for them (not ALL of the damage, but most of it)... ... Going over this preliminary set, It really just occured to me that the toggles could just as easily just increase your max HP, and have the same sort of effect |
-A 'fake HP' mechanic doesn't exist. How would this work, exactly? You do not explain if it's a separate HP bar, a recolored bar on top of your regular HP. How much damage does this take, exactly? How does it differentiate the toggles? (how does this mechanic know which armor piece is taking the damage? what resists what?)
-Variable recharge times. Do we have any examples of a power that recharges at two different rates? Or a means for the engine to tell if the armor was turned off, detoggled or broken?
-Gamers will game. If an armor is going to break, what's stopping the player from quickly turning it off and back on again to circumvent the 'armor break' penalty?
-Additional HP. Several things here. If the set just used +HP to simulate the 'fake HP', that throws regeneration into the mix. Also, there are caps. If, for instance, you've reached the HP cap with a combination of IOs, accolades and one or two of the toggles, this renders more +HP null and breaks the concept of the set. Especially considering a Stalker, half the +HP armor would do nothing.
I mentioned some of this earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat it and try to be more concise/clear and/or detailed.
1: Q
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.| A 'fake HP' mechanic doesn't exist. How would this work, exactly? You do not explain if it's a separate HP bar, a recolored bar on top of your regular HP |
1:A
The "Armored" or "fake" hp mechanic would basically be a different color over your regular HP Bar, Imagine your XP bar with debt or Patrol XP.
Mentioned Here
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| Your Health replaced with sort of "False health" bar over the real one. You would take X amount of "fake" damage, before the toggle is forceably shut off, with a somewhat long recharge time, if it is. Each toggle would represent a signifigant segment of your "Fake" health, and when they were all gone, you'd be helpless, like a hermit crab out of it's shell. |
Ooooh, Further idea, the first four powers are the armor toggles, the rest are powers that keep hte toggles running, or boost them in some way!
2: Q
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| How much damage does this take, exactly? |
I'd imagine that would scale with your character's level,staying somewhat equivalent to your "real" HP, what I like about this is it has a kind of "soft Rez" built in to it, your enemies have to essentially kill you twice, but since there are quite a few holes in the protection armor provides(Certain very common damage types, no hold or slow resistance and very little(just the one) debuff resistance, the armor mechanic itself) some damage would still get through to your "real" Hp, meaning when they finally whittle your armor down, you're probably exhausted, and not at FULL Hp, meaning it's not a "Automatic and Free" ressurect power.
3: Q
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| How does it differentiate the toggles? |
Put simply, these are Basic toggles, like any other, and act as such for the most part, the only thing is they connect to the "Fake/Armor" hp mechanic as opposed to your character directly
to go into more detail:
3a: Q
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| (how does this mechanic know which armor piece is taking the damage? |
The peices/toggles would be represented on the "fake' health bar according to the percentage of health perscribed to them. Nothing would attack the peices directly, as they're really just regular armor toggles with a unique mechanic attached to them.
Enemies would instead do damage to your "fake HP" as a whole. When your fake HP dropped below a certain percentage, the corresponding
Toggle/peice would be "destroyed"
X peice would represent the first 15 % and would "Go" first, e.t.c. So, the armors would all work as one peice when all active, but be "destroyed" seperately based on the percentage of "armored" HP still in the bar.
So basically: peice one would add 40% To your "fake/armored" health bar, and it wouldn't be just any fourty percent, but the last fourty percent, and when that fourty percent is gone, so too goes the toggle. Peice 2 would add 15, peice three 30, and peice four 15.
It would go, First 15% takes it's piece/toggle with it, then the next 30%, then the next 15%, then after the last 40% goes, you're naked.
3b: Q
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| what resists what? |
The pieces/toggles would, together, represent an overal bonus to your "fake/armored" HP with their individual defenses and resistances. They wouldn't affect each other, which is why they all do completely different things. Remember, these are really just regular armor toggles, but they affect the Hypothetical "Fake" HP as opposed to your character directly.
So, If your character had, Say, Helmet, and Grieves on, they'd have 45%(30% From Helmet, 15% from grieves) of their fake HP,Psionic Resistance, Stun/Confuse resistance, AoE defense,and Knockback resistance. If they de-toggled Helmet, They'd lose 30% of their "Fake" health, and the Psionic and Stun/Confuse resistances as well, But retain the AoE Defense, Knocback resistance, and the 15% fake health
4: Q
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| -Variable recharge times. Do we have any examples of a power that recharges at two different rates? Or a means for the engine to tell if the armor was turned off, detoggled or broken? |
No idea, maybe? hopefully? who knows? not me, someone more informed, I suppose.
In my mind, toggling the power on and off would work normally, but having your "Fake/Armored" hp drop below the threshold for the toggle it applies to would trigger a Power that would severely debuff the recharge of the toggle specifically.
Could that work? See my first response.
5: Q
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| -Gamers will game. If an armor is going to break, what's stopping the player from quickly turning it off and back on again to circumvent the 'armor break' penalty? |
No idea, attach a debilitating penalty? what do you suggest?
Remember this thread is
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| Help Me Design This Set ! : Armor |
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| -Additional HP. Several things here. If the set just used +HP to simulate the 'fake HP', that throws regeneration into the mix. Also, there are caps. If, for instance, you've reached the HP cap with a combination of IOs, accolades and one or two of the toggles, this renders more +HP null and breaks the concept of the set. Especially considering a Stalker, half the +HP armor would do hing. |
Honestly, That was a fleeting thought I had when pondering whether this idea was at all possible, and working out some of the concepts really does make it feel like it is, so ehhhhhh, remember:
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I was wondering how to make it into more of a real set. |
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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What if you actually designed a costume for your underwear so to speak that was separate from your costume slots.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Here's my question, though - how is this superior to using the costume creator itself, which seems to me to have more power in customization than what you're looking to design. If you're basically adding/replacing costume pieces, don't you have a far greater selection of designs using the costume editor than a custom powerset will ever provide?
Shields serve a purpose for one simple reason - they are analogous to a weapon, in that you don't wear them as clothes and you don't carry them if you're not going to defend yourself. You can have a helmet without having Helmet Defence, but you can't have a shield without Shield Defence. It wouldn't make sense. Shields, therefore, get a context exception. But armour isn't really something you need to work to use. Armour you simply wear. Current armour sets like Stone Armour and Ice Armour, though possibly replicable with costume pieces, come with exotic mechanics unique to the concept of the element they draw from. I re-read your original post, and I still can't tell what is mechanically, functionally and inherently so exotic about the concept of armour that it requires its own powerset. I don't mean to shoot down, but I just don't think either the mechanics or visuals of this aren't better served by existing systems. |
As each armor piece is put on, that part of your costume is replaced with the item in your costume slot.
That way it would be exactly as deep as the current costume options, allow yourself to customize your untoggled look as well as your toggled look, and give the same mechanic the OP is looking for.
The naked costume slot would be restricted to certain items (maybe no shoulder, no full or half helmet, no gloves and boots other than the skin options).
That way it wouldn't look too goofy if a toggle dropped.
The shoulder, belt, helmet, could belong to the torso toggle.
This actually would be more acceptable than the OP, and would introduce a new mechanic to the game as ingenious as Dual Swords combo system, or Ammo swapping.
And it might be something we can convince the devs to do.
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Answer:|
Originally Posted by 5th_Player
What if you actually designed a costume for your underwear so to speak that was separate from your costume slots.
As each armor piece is put on, that part of your costume is replaced with the item in your costume slot. That way it would be exactly as deep as the current costume options, allow yourself to customize your untoggled look as well as your toggled look, and give the same mechanic the OP is looking for. The naked costume slot would be restricted to certain items (maybe no shoulder, no full or half helmet, no gloves and boots other than the skin options). That way it wouldn't look too goofy if a toggle dropped. The shoulder, belt, helmet, could belong to the torso toggle. This actually would be more acceptable than the OP, and would introduce a new mechanic to the game as ingenious as Dual Swords combo system, or Ammo swapping. And it might be something we can convince the devs to do. |
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
As for the "Armored Up" appearance... The engine -cannot- replace specific pieces of the player's costume. It can overlay (Like the Freakshow Disguise) or replace the character's model (like the Midnighter Disguise) there is no middle ground. So any armor pieces you put -onto- the costume would clip with any costume pieces in those slots, currently. You can't "Replace" a character's hairstyle with a helmet, for example. Or their "Banded Techbot" gloves with gauntlets. You can only overlap/overlay them or replace the whole model.
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The "Ablative Armor" As outlined in the OPs latest description would not function for multiple reasons. First the HP Cap. It was put in place to limit just how many HP a player could have at any time. This set, as described, doubles that amount of HP. It's also suggesting that the character's HP doesn't get damaged until the armor is destroyed. This doesn't work because it makes the character (roughly) invulnerable until he's taken his full HP total once, at the least.
No. Your best bet for a method of making this set work is accepting the limitations of the system and enjoying the creativity they can foster. Your idea, for example, has sparked one in me that I'm almost certain you won't like since it isn't your idea.
Tier One: Breastplate
Pet power, invisible flying mote with about 30-40% of the player's hit point total. Armor appears as a pre-selected breastplate over the player's torso. Grants the player "Standard" defense bonus for a tier 1 power to melee. Click power, very long recharge (2 minutes), very high end cost (20-30 end)
Tier Two: Shoulder Guards
Pet Power, invisible flying mote with about 20-30% of the player's hit point total. Armor appears as a pre-selected shoulder slot item over the player's upper arms. Grants the player "Standard" defense bonus for a tier 1 power to Ranged. Click power, very long recharge (2 minutes) , very high end cost (20-30 end)
Tier Three: Reinforcement
Point Blank Area of Effect pet healing power, self heal and +HP. Grants the user additional hit points while healing both himself and his armor for 60 seconds. Additional hit points don't stack (not affected by buffs or enhancements) though the healing portion could double up. Click power, Long recharge (45 seconds), moderate end cost (10-15 end)
Tier Four: Gauntlets
Toggle, Self +Dam, +Def (ranged/melee/aoe), Graphic is a pre-selected overlay on the gloves slot. The Defense bonus should be small (equivalent to the three SR defensive auto-powers) damage bonus of 15%. Moderate recharge when detoggled (25-30 seconds) High end cost (for a toggle, say .42 instead of .21)
Tier Five: Grieves
Pet power, invisible flying mote with about 15-20% of the player's hit point total. Armor appears as a pre-selected boot over the player's lower legs. Grants the player AoE defense as well as KB protection and an AoE taunt effect, more enemies in melee grants a higher bonus to recharge. (on tankers, scrappers, and brutes, for Stalkers this power would be removed to make room for "Hide" the grieves would be shifted into the Gauntlet power and the KB would probably be added to Helmet)
Tier Six: Helmet
Toggle power. Self +Status Protection resistance (all but Fear) +Psi resistance (15%). Overlays a helmet of the player's choosing on the head of the player. This one has the worst possible potential to clip, so I'd suggest a small variety of incredibly close and incredibly "Wide" helmets to either cover hair/pre-selected headgear/hats -or- closer items that wind up under-laying with the larger hair/helmet options with only small amounts visible here or there. Recharge: Moderate (as gauntlets) End Cost normal for a toggle (.21)
Tier Seven: Underarmor
Auto power or toggle grants resistance to smashing/lethal/fire/cold/energy/negative energy. If an Auto power the mods should be 15% s/l, 12.5% f/c, and 7.5% e/n. As a toggle it should be 22.5% s/l, 15% f/c, 12.5% e/n for tankers and lower numbers for other classes based on their "Standards" for defense.
Tier Eight: Ablative Armor
Click. PBAoE massive pet heal, capable of returning the pets to full health. Grants the user an additional 15% s/l, 12.5% f/c, and 7.5% e/n for 45-60 seconds. Very long recharge (2 minutes) high end cost (15-20)
Tier Nine: Armor Master
Click power, increases the armor pet's HP, Damage Resistance (all), and player's damage resistance (all) for 3 minutes with a crash. Resistance buff (for the pets) should be about 30% across the board, for the player about 15% across the board, since he's splitting his damage with them. Attribute HP -90% rather than damaging the player. Very Long recharge (6-10 minutes) low end cost (.5-5 end)
The three "Pet" powers would basically function as a mastermind's pets tend to do with Bodyguard mode on. Sucking up a portion of all damage dealt to the player just as a mastermind's pets would. Dividing the damage evenly across all parties would probably be preferable, I imagine. Otherwise a set percentage of the damage applied per toggle would be fine. Each pet is a persistent entity until it is destroyed (passing from zone to zone with the player) or dismissed by the player.
The total mods for defensive abilities from the set on a Tanker would be:
Defense
AoE: 18%
Melee: 18%
Ranged: 18%
Damage Resistance (Without Tier 9 on)
Smashing: 37.5%
Lethal: 37.5%
Fire: 27.5%
Cold: 27.5%
Energy: 20%
Negative: 20%
Toxic: 0%
Psi: 15%
So as you can see the main utility of the powerset is in the pets taking damage for the player. Anywhere from 1/2 (with one pet alive) to 1/4 each (with all three pets alive). Also bear in mind that when a pet dies the player loses it's defensive bonuses (PBAoE from the pet targeting the player, range 200yds. Even if the pets are intangible flyers who follow the player at all times they could still get "Caught" somewhere, so I'd also like to suggest the set get a "Freebie" power of Assemble the Team targeting only his pets)
Other players cannot see, target, buff, or heal the pets in any way, though they could still heal and buff the player himself. The damage split is probably in need of some work... But this is a method which we know works within the system itself which encapsulates the OP's original idea.
-Rachel-
So, Looking in another thread gave me the idea, and I want to flesh it out as best as I can, but obviously, my number crunching,and game-balance knowledge isn't as up to snuff as it could be, so I'm asking you, dear Forumites, to assist me.
The idea here is for a defensive set built around the idea of, well, Armor obviously.
Visually,the power will have several( four, or three) powers that cause an armor power effect to appear over the character's body. Obviously, the point is to make a character who defends his or herself with armor, and whi's powers visually and functionally reflect that.
My original Idea was for it to be regen+Resist, But, if it's not overpowered or done elsewhere, maybe Defense+Resist?
Here are the basic elements I've figured out, and I was wondering how to make it into more of a real set.
Concept:
The power is based around using a less specific form of "Armor" as with Stone or Ice, and more of a general concept of something worn on the outside of the body for protection. While it's true one can take Invulnerability and just design an armored costume, I think a powerset that is both based on armor, and has a distinct visual aspect to it fulfills a niche in the current powerset selection,as well as opens up new ones.
Visual:
Functionally, that is, in terms of how this set is programmed to appear, I see this power being like Spikes, It would be edited in the powers screen of character creation. When characters toggle on or click the appropriate power, the armor would be seen, but when the effcts of the click wear off, or the toggle is turned off, they would dissapear.
One Major aspect of this idea is segmented armor toggles, Divided into either three segments:
- Head
- Torso
- Lower Body
Or Four segments- Helm
- Breastplate
- Gauntlets
- Grieves
There would be either three or four(respectively) toggles that individually would summon up their respective armor segment.Under this system, Your character could present themselves in mutiple states of protection. Fully armored, with all the toggles on, or semi-armored, with only the ones you choose on.
The armor itself woud be sleeker than, Stone or ice armor, to represent something closer-fitting, to Distinguish itself more form the other armor sets, and TO allow it to share visual aspects with the other sets, without being confused for them.
The customizations for this set would, hopefully , include
- Ice
- Stone
- Metal
- Bio-armor
- Force-Field or energy, similar to the Energy option For Shields
- Flaming
- Mystical
- Technological
- Plain, single colored armor
- Crystal
- Tactical
Because it would be composed of closer-fitting, individual segments, it wouldn't share much in common, visually speaking, with the other sets it shares the name "Armor" with, and because it would, Ideally, be edited and controlled like Spike-powersets are, players could mix and match different armor segments to create a unique look.Function:
As I've said before, I Imagine this set to be high on resist, with a doseage of Defense thrown in. It would lean more towards Resistances than Defense, but a few of the minor powers should lend themselves towards, say Area of effect and ranged Defense.
While I haven't figured out ALL the powers in the set, I do know it should have three, preferably four, toggle powers, maybe with a low endurance cost on them tof acilitate running them near constantly, as would likely happen. These would be the "signature" powers, the seperate segments of the actual visual armor.
These powers should be obtained rather early in the set so a player can have the Look and powers they initially selected the set for,instead having to wait until level thirty to have a full set of protective gear, and having to fight through the thirty levels previous with just a helmet and a pair of boots, you would, at least look, the part of a fully armored hero(ine) from the start
A specific aspect of the power I wanted to address was a unique feature I thought of,(unless this exists without my knowing)
Since the power is built around the idea of a protective shell, I think it would be appropriate if, either through a power itself, or simply through an inherent quality of the set, enemies who attempt a melee attack on your character would have to roll a check against "Recoil" damage taken for hitting your character. The idea being, since your character's outer shell is so hard, and or dangerous, they can actually hurt temselves whilst in the process of hurting you.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.