Help Me Design This Set ! : Armor

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

In the set I just put forth the Armor pieces have their own individual health totals as pet powers. Though I REALLY should lower their totals to about 50%-60% of the player's overall HP total rather than 90%. Though with the damage being split, evenly, and the individual pieces having different amounts of HP I think the end cost of getting your defenses back up might be a mitigating factor...

-Rachel-

I'm actually not convinced that having armour pieces take some damage away from the player Bodyguard-style may not be a good way to go with this, as Bodyguard is unenhancible and applicable to all damage irrespective of element. I suspect it might be better to go with more conventional defence and resistance buffs, and maybe a hit points boost while we're at it.

I still want the pieces to have their own health, I just don't want them to take part of the player's damage. Rather, I want them to take their own damage, with the player taking all of his licks, but having resistance and defence to mitigate it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Then what is the point of having 'pet armor' at all? Why not just defense/resist toggles or clicks? Basically, if we're going out of our way to add an esoteric mechanic like this to an armor set, what benefit does it gain from it? Similarly with Dual Blades, the combo mechanic is a bonus for stringing the attacks together in order for pure benefit for the limitation that they *must* be used in a predefined order and *must* connect.

As for the proposed set by Steampunkette with respect to Sam's thoughts on the armor taking its own damage; I feel the 'armor pets' shouldn't even grant the user defense or resists but attacks directed at the player will simply be redirected to the appropriate pet. The breastplate would protect the body from smashing and lethal so would take and resist such damage on its own. The gauntlets would be used to redirect and deflect melee and ranged attacks so roll vs those attacks to hit. The helmet would protect vs psi along with resisting mez.

So a smashing melee attack would check vs the gauntlets to hit. If it hits, it connects with the breastplate which resists some of its damage and takes the rest on chest 'armor pet's' HP. If the breastplate is destroyed, subsequent smashing damage would injure the player *AND* the other 'armor pets' instead of *only* on the breastplate.

Ultimately, it's about using the 'right' armor piece in the right fight rather than pile on all your armor and survive hell and highwater all the time.

PS: The super benefit would be that debuffs as additional effects would be directed on the pets and not the player. Persistent AoE debuffs, however, would still get through for obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Okay. With this... Do you mean you want the pets Targetable (and thus easily slaughtered) or do you want the player and the armor pieces to both take full damage from any attack that lands on the player? In which case the armor will be slaughtered...

This was my line of thinking with the Bodyguard 3 pet idea and the resistance/defense inherent to the pets as an aura-buff on their user.

Impossible within the current system. This would require a full revamp of the tohi-defense-damage-damage resistance-total damage checks. However it would allow for a system in which a potential future powerset would allow a player to play "Bodyguard" for other entities (PCs or NPCs) to take part of -their- damage. Unfortunately it would be incredibly broken when the SR scrapper plays "Bodyguard" to the whole team, pops Elude, and all ToHit checks are rolled against him.

An attack targets a single entity (or Area) but cannot currently be rerouted through multiple targets (Attack Mastermind, Check Defense/Tohit against Brute, Apply damage to Scrapper Damage resistance, grant remaining damage to Mastermind). It doesn't support that functionality.

Again, the Debuffs cannot target entities they're not aimed at unless the Devs revamp the entire combat system. It's asking the Devs to reach around their own elbow to drag a thirty pound weight across their body when they could just turn, pick it up with both hands, and apply bodyguard mode directly.

There is a system in the game to handle this already. Let the armor grant defense to the target of the attack. It checks against his Defense. It checks damage versus the player's Damage Resistance, then applies the damage to the player and any pet currently "Bodyguarding" the player. These mechanics are already in place and would handle the concept without too much issue. Why try to rewrite what already works to put in a new mechanic for one set which is already going to be difficult to implement thanks to the costume considerations?

-Rachel-

You mamm... are wrong.

I remember quite clearly reporting a bug where the midnighter costume did not account for animated tails.

My animated tail from my costume was displayed on top of the costume.

So they can replace parts piecemeal, but they may not currently be able to do it as combinations.

IF this could be implemented, it would lay the ground work for some interesting boss fights.

Imagine a boss that loses his robotic arm halfway into the fight.

Ehhh... I think I'm still right. The Midnighter costume was designed before the additional node (Tail) was used. I wonder if Khelds and Stone Tanks have the same problem.

-Rachel-

Not impossible. Although the defense/ToHit check might need to be put on the player (having the pet simply give you defense like Sam said), but I've thought of a possible way using current mechanics (although it probably won't work).

Also, who ever said anything about Bodyguard mode on a SR character? Also, it sorta doesn't make sense how it's all that broken. If a scrapper pops Elude and never gets hit by ST attacks, no one takes damage anyway (except around 5-10% of the time). If AoE attacks start getting tossed about, the scrapper will dodge but everyone else will still get hit (or will the scrapper end up sharing *that* damage and ultimately nerf his own defense because he's taking damage everytime a teammate takes damage?).

Mock up I've been thinking of:
Breastplate pet = good smashing/lethal resist + 60% base HP (so the pets HP is calculated off your base)
Shoulder/arm guard pet = decent energy/neg energy/fire/cold resist + 45% base HP
Helmet pet = good psi resists + decent lethal/cold resist + 30% base HP
Gauntlet pet = melee/ranged defense to Base + 30% base HP (no resists)

Basically, attacking the player will result in attacking the player and all pets at once (think of it as Negative Bodyguard; rather than splitting the damage among the pets and yourself, everyone takes 100% of the effect).

But the Breastplate would grant a buff the player and other pets (3 mag of Untouchable to smashing and lethal...probably doesn't work like that but work with me...) and same for the Shoulder/arm for the dmg types it resists. The helmet would only provide the untouchable status for the dmg types it has to the player.

This would result in the breastplate taking all the smashing/lethal dmg first and the shoulder/arms take everything else except psi (which the helmet would take) and the debuffs and whatnot bounce off an untouchable entity. If the enemy manages to breech your armor (say, a psi user manages to melt your helmet with mind waves because that would be taking the damage in place of the other pets), the other armor will do little to protect you and will quickly be destroyed too.

The gauntlets will simply take damage when you get hit *if* no other armor is present to soak up the damage.

In layman's dumbed down terms: the breastplate will stop your ribs from being crushed or your organs punctured, the shoulders would soak up those scary cold, fire and energy attacks for you, the helmet while it can stop you from taking a bullet to the head is more to soak up the mind attacks and the gauntlets are used as shields to deflect melee and ranged attacks. Lose any of those pieces and all your armor, including yourself, are now vulnerable to that kind of attack.

I realize that...I was the one to suggest the armor pet/bodyguard mock up I was just proposing a more thematic angle to the idea. I always try to think of multiple ways to get to a possible solution primarily because one idea might not work...

The "Untouchable" is all or nothing, sadly. However I'm not -certain- that you can't set up the Bodyguard effect to take only one damage type (I.E. Breastplate taking S/L only). I'm 90% sure that the Devs -could- set up the "Bodyguard" effect pawning damage off onto the pets would deal full damage to said pets, minus any resistance the pet might have. And, similarly, it could deal full damage to the player, as well.

As for the numbers on the pet's HP... That's 165% of the player's total health. Simply ridiculous amounts of HP, to put it lightly. Especially since you want different types to take different damage types, exclusively. You'll essentially have the player taking the first 60% of their HP in damage to their Breastplate toggle with no damage to themselves. What's keeping them, in this situation, from popping the pet right back out?

Or do you mean that the "Untouchable" wouldn't apply to the player? In which case the player and Breastplate both take the full damage of a smashing attack? Why wear the armor..? Does it grant an inherent Defense or Damage resistance buff?

I honestly think the layout I put in was the simplest and most effective way to get the set up and running with the "Feel" it originally called for, without being "Broken" in it's power.

As for the "Scrapper Bodyguard" thing... I was commenting that -if- the Devs went ahead and rewrote the entire method by which it works, a player powerset could focus on applying "Bodyguard" to other allies. A Defender, for example, might grant a DR buff to an ally with a toggle that also allows the Defender to take part of the damage (or tanker, or scrapper). I also commented on the idea of the scrapper's defenses being used by other party members because you described using the armor's Defense mod for protection of the player. It's far simpler just to buff the player's defense and doesn't offer up gamebreaking options. I then explained how the "Give you my Defenses" player to player bodyguard mode could be broken.

Anywho. Yes! I like the set. I think my version is, so far, the one that works best within the game's system as it currently functions.

-Rachel-

Well, in the case of facing primarily lethal damage foes such as Council (there's some mix of smashing dmg too with the warwolves and we'll just ignore the vampiri for now), you're only looking at 90% thanks to the breastplate and helmet. What's stopping you from popping the pet right back out? Probably the same thing that stops a MM from producing a steady stream of upgraded pets. You can do it for a while but you're not going to be able to keep it up indefinitely.

No, the 'Untouchable' status would apply to the player. The thought was, the Breastplate and Shoulder/arm armor would grant 'untouchable' to the player to protect his HP and to the other armors to prevent them from absorbing certain damage types while the breastplate/shoulder is active.

Also, consider that once a piece of armor is destroyed, all other armors are vulnerable. I.e: You're fighting a MA scrapper type Longbow and he pummels your Breastplate with smashing attacks. Eventually, it crumbles. All subsequent smashing attacks will now do 100% of its damage to the player *and* the other armor pieces at the same time...and none of the others resist smashing.

Processing the idea, however broken it may be, such a set would have great advantage vs enemy types with varied damage types (think Outcasts, Circle of Thorns....uhhh Longbow...) because their damage would be mitigated across all the armor pieces. But vs enemies with concentrated damage types (Council, 5th Column, Warriors, etc) would eat the armor user quickly or foes with extraneous psionic and toxic damage like Arachnos.

Yeah, and don't forget who provided the base for that layout <_<

But it's arguable if a bodyguard system is or isn't 'broken' on an AT like Brute or Tanker. On MM, it's proved to be as effective as a Tanker who has far more HP and defenses than a little ol' MM...and the comments Sam brought up about split dmg not being enhanceable and wouldn't really scale up is also something to consider.

And that's why I said the Gauntlet pet (the one that provides the defense) would do so by placing it on the player. So it'd be like a defense toggle but in a clicky pet form with its own HP and can be destroyed if you don't properly keep maintenance of your other armor pieces.

The armour getting "slaughtered" is kind of the point, as it would be balanced by its death (i.e. the cost of reapplying it faster than it breaks). Under such a system, you're going to NEED to see the armour break, and break a lot, otherwise it would be a zero-cost toggle, which is not good game design.

And, yes, I do envision both the player and the corresponding armour piece taking one instance of full damage. However, since the armour's hit points do not directly contribute to the player's survival until the armour actually falls off, this shouldn't produce a noticeable drop in survivability. It WOULD, however, produce a noticeable jump in cost, which is the point.

Again, I don't think it's a good idea to share damage between player and armour, as that sharing is not susceptible to enhancements, not susceptible to buffs and, more than anything else, not susceptible to debuffs. This gives the player absolute protection that only high levels of raw damage can overcome, booting pretty much the entire to-hit and resistance mechanic out of the equation.

*edit*
I'm not convinced that could work, as the damage a Mastermind sends to his henchmen is untyped, lacks an owner and has no logical connection to the damage type or source of the attack. I'm not sure if it even registers in the combat spam, but I can check. However, provided we CAN apply resistances to armour pieces, how about:

Each armour piece has minuscule health, say 100 hit points at level 50, but has 90% resistance to the elements it protects against, and only takes damage from those elements. In essence, you're covered in Metal Slimes. This makes the armour very resilient in its own right, but VERY susceptible to damage that ignores resistance, as well as to resistance debuffs. Strip down its resistance and the armour breaks like an egg shell. It'd be the equivalent of cascading defence failure for defence powers.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.