I "think" I want Mercs/??
Mercs is the absolute weakest MM set by a large margin.
Their tier 1 minions are pure lethal, the most resisted damage type. Have average defense and only bots have inferior damage ratio's on their abilities(but since they're energy they end up doing more dps)
Their tier 2 minions offer limited CC on dramatically long cooldown to suffer from again pure lethal damage and again the 2nd worst damage ratio's on their abilities behind bots(who win due to energy and are even more useful due to shields on the utility end)
Their commando is only better then the Lich for damage, offers next to no control or utility.
Mercs is bad and needs an overhaul.
I played Mercs Dark to 50. the character has been banished to I forget which server to free up a slot on Virtue. I don't think I'll ever bother with it again unless for some reason they do massively overhaul mercs.
Hell, I burned a server transfer and two respecs to pull a couple dozen million inf worth of IOs out of the character to give them to someone else for free. The character is that worthless to me.
And you might think they're ranged, but the medic and one other soldier love running into melee. Your spec ops won't run out of melee if the enemy closes with them. And the commando is a frikking moron who opens on big groups with aoe knockback to scatter them for low damage, then unloads on one lone guy with all his aoe damage powers. Then runs up to someone else and just stands there looking at him without attacking for a while. He's dumber than the bruiser ever was.
Go thugs if you want ranged power.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Ironically enough, I came to the boards today to post my opinion on mercs, which differs very much from the general forum community.
I personally have never had any (major) problems with mercs... in fact, my first redside 50 was a mercs/TA MM... though, as my first 50, I was very inexperienced and she is now my weakest 50... <.<
Instead of thinking how "weak" mercs are at a range (and even then only compared to thugs as a whole and the Assbot), think of it more of a trade-off between damage and survivability.
Do thugs outdamage mercs? If the arsonist hasn't faceplanted for the n'th time, yes. But will you ever see a merc two-shotted by a yellow-con LT? Probably not.
I ran ninja/storm up to 50, the entire time I was wishing I'd gone mercs/storm instead (I have one now lvl30). Corner pulling with SS + FR into a doorway with your mercs ripping through the mob is sooo satisfying. Ninjas might be able to bring down single tough mobs, but mercs are the king of taking out lots of weaker mobs.
Go mercs/storm. Actually slot Gale and M30 grenade. Knock stuff out of melee. Between your medic and your O2 Boost, your pets should stay healthy. A simple GoTo command will stop your Spec Ops from getting punched in the face like a moron. Fight lots of Warriors
Just about the only thing I will agree with in other people's Merc-Rants is that the Medic does like to solo purple bosses, but then again, so does my Arsonist lol.
Ironically enough, I came to the boards today to post my opinion on mercs, which differs very much from the general forum community.
I personally have never had any (major) problems with mercs... in fact, my first redside 50 was a mercs/TA MM... though, as my first 50, I was very inexperienced and she is now my weakest 50... <.< Instead of thinking how "weak" mercs are at a range (and even then only compared to thugs as a whole and the Assbot), think of it more of a trade-off between damage and survivability. Do thugs outdamage mercs? If the arsonist hasn't faceplanted for the n'th time, yes. But will you ever see a merc two-shotted by a yellow-con LT? Probably not. I ran ninja/storm up to 50, the entire time I was wishing I'd gone mercs/storm instead (I have one now lvl30). Corner pulling with SS + FR into a doorway with your mercs ripping through the mob is sooo satisfying. Ninjas might be able to bring down single tough mobs, but mercs are the king of taking out lots of weaker mobs. Go mercs/storm. Actually slot Gale and M30 grenade. Knock stuff out of melee. Between your medic and your O2 Boost, your pets should stay healthy. A simple GoTo command will stop your Spec Ops from getting punched in the face like a moron. Fight lots of Warriors Just about the only thing I will agree with in other people's Merc-Rants is that the Medic does like to solo purple bosses, but then again, so does my Arsonist lol. |
It's not that merc's can't be effective, it's that they're the worst option no matter what.
Bots for example are nearly identical in behavior and attacks. The difference is bots do energy damage which isn't resisted and the Assault Bolt drops fire patches and has a -regen debuff on one of it's attacks. THe fire patches eats up mob clusters and the -regen eats up AV's.
Bubbles from tier 2 will protect the bots far more then the absurdly long cooldown CC abilities of the Spec Ops and you also have to healer bots instead of a single, very fragile medic.
So to summeraize.
Can you be effective with Mercs? Yes.
Would you had been better off as Bots in every way? Yes.
It's not that merc's can't be effective, it's that they're the worst option no matter what.
Bots for example are nearly identical in behavior and attacks. So to summeraize. Can you be effective with Mercs? Yes. Would you had been better off as Bots in every way? Yes. |
Part of the issue is, that all the other MM sets have at least one obvious synergy, and sometimes two or three. (Thugs/poison, bots/ff, Necro/Dark, Ninja/Trick Arrows, Demons/anything.) Mercs, as a set, don't even work well with each other - they will use knockback attacks to scatter enemies out of their own AoEs. They'll fire off their "once every five minutes" stun grenades on a passing minion. And the Medic, who I am sure also generates a penalty to "balance" his healing and grenades, is in a competition with the kamikaze Arsonist for "pet who spends the most time dead." The difference is, that the Arsonist is at least earning the effort it'll take to fix him up by running in and setting everything in sight on fire.
Honestly, my experience is that even the Spastic Clan Ninjas are more reliable, and generally easier to use. Yes, it is possible to slot Mercs up and use keybinds and actually force them to be barely effective. But for the same effort, you could take, well, *any* other MM pets and be really, really good instead.
First thanks for all the responses. I did level a Mercs/Traps to about 14 before, and reading the posts has reminded me of sitting there and wondering why things aren't dead yet.
So that being said, in an effort to jack my own thread. Since I plan on running the Leadership powers, will I get some sweet stacking with Thugs? (I really like all that has been said about Bots, but the clanging. )
Protector: Tulare 50 Inv/SS/EM-ph1x3r 47 Bots/Traps
VIP: VIC-29(Traps/AR) - Corinth(Grav/FF) -Wrecka(Claws/SR)
I already had a 50 bot/ff and have played all the other primaries to at least the mid 20s. Ninjas and Necros can be just as annoying as the medic because most of their heavy hitters like to shoot from range instead of going into melee. The thugs arsonist drove me crazy with how fast he got himself killed no matter what secondary I paired it up with. So far, I'm enjoying mercs much more.
I chose storm for my pairing becaue I had never gotten storm to a very high level and never could get into the set. However, it seems to have a good pairing so far with mercs and has actually become fun to play. At later levels, the powers in storm will help to add damage to a lower damage primary.
Also, from other threads I've read, and can spare the inf, all the mercs can be slotted with the Achilles proc which will reduce the damage resistance of your enemies. Another way to help the lower damage.
No your leadership doesn't stack with the liet's leadership. However:
Thugs rool.
I have a Ninja/Dark that just hit 32. So I got my last upgrade power hoping it would get me to enjoy it more, and I am not. I think it is the mix that has gotten to me, they melee, they range, sometimes the run around confused.
I figure I want a group that plays ranged, and I am not in love with listening to robots stop around behind me. I balance things in my play, I am not a full on Tankermind, but I am heavily reliant on Bodyguard. I am usually always the first to attack (sometimes I get it right enough against AoE mobs that I am the only AoE victim), then I do what I can and attack here or there. So I am considering Mercs, but I need some tips on secondaries. I think Dark is awesome, it can heal and debuff. I don't like the poison animations at all. Traps has a lot of goodies, but I think I need a group heal the way I play. Trick Arrow just has no place in my heart. I have basically no experience with Pain and Therm. So I want a group heal, and I know I need debuffing for those nasty fights. As with my Ninja/Dark I do plan to have Stamina and run Assault/Tactics. Also I love the whole soloing Elites thing, those are some good fights. Thank you guys for any advice. |
The damage is weak and to add to that, the most resisted type in the game.
The sturdiness of the pets is pretty weak as well.
The AI is a bit... well, stupid.
What the Mercs have going for them is that they're Jack-of-all-trades pets. Sure, they're not great at any one thing, but that can do almost anything. melee, ranged, buff, debuff, hold, heal... It all depends on what you want to emphasize.
Two things would make Mercs/- better IMHO: Make them a bit more sturdy, and make the damage smashing or a combination of lethal and smashing. OH... and add my one recommendation for all MMs... half the recharge on Tier One pets. A mastermind should be able to absolutely churn out basic unmodified minions.
Mercs can be fun, just make sure it's a concept you like and then prepare to be patient with it.
... Hit it ...
Errr... I don't have a thugs MM with Leadership, so I can't check. But I thought that the player's and the thugs' Leadership auras *do* stack. For the Thugs, at least. (They won't stack for the player character, you'll only have the benefit from your own auras, but the pets will get the stacked benefit of all three.)
Errr... I don't have a thugs MM with Leadership, so I can't check. But I thought that the player's and the thugs' Leadership auras *do* stack. For the Thugs, at least. (They won't stack for the player character, you'll only have the benefit from your own auras, but the pets will get the stacked benefit of all three.)
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Protector: Tulare 50 Inv/SS/EM-ph1x3r 47 Bots/Traps
VIP: VIC-29(Traps/AR) - Corinth(Grav/FF) -Wrecka(Claws/SR)
I think I found a reason. To be different then everyone else. Other then that, my new merc/storm I made is something to play for fun. I have plenty of 50s and other non 50s that have amazing kill speeds. I don't need all my toons to play that way. I need some variety in my play or I'd get bored.
I already had a 50 bot/ff and have played all the other primaries to at least the mid 20s. Ninjas and Necros can be just as annoying as the medic because most of their heavy hitters like to shoot from range instead of going into melee. The thugs arsonist drove me crazy with how fast he got himself killed no matter what secondary I paired it up with. So far, I'm enjoying mercs much more. I chose storm for my pairing becaue I had never gotten storm to a very high level and never could get into the set. However, it seems to have a good pairing so far with mercs and has actually become fun to play. At later levels, the powers in storm will help to add damage to a lower damage primary. Also, from other threads I've read, and can spare the inf, all the mercs can be slotted with the Achilles proc which will reduce the damage resistance of your enemies. Another way to help the lower damage. |
As for Ninja/Zombie difficulty to control? Ninja's is my primary MM choice. I'm infact loathe to give it up to go Demon's in the upcomming week. I learned quite early on how to properly control them so that only once in a rare moon is my Jounin in melee range and still shooting his dart. A simple follow me/goto repeat into melee range fixes the issue 99 times out of 100.
Though I do think doing Ninja's without Dark is just asking for a headache.
Errr... I don't have a thugs MM with Leadership, so I can't check. But I thought that the player's and the thugs' Leadership auras *do* stack. For the Thugs, at least. (They won't stack for the player character, you'll only have the benefit from your own auras, but the pets will get the stacked benefit of all three.)
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Ah I remember the discussion now. It was concluded that it was a waste of space because mm leadership is barely more than half what a defender gets. However now I see that it would be worth getting assault at higher levels because even though it is 11.25% unslotted it would add up over all the attacks to something pretty good.
True, cosmetic and thematic is a perfectly good reason to go Mercs and again I mentioned you can still be plenty viable with mercs.
As for Ninja/Zombie difficulty to control? Ninja's is my primary MM choice. I'm infact loathe to give it up to go Demon's in the upcomming week. I learned quite early on how to properly control them so that only once in a rare moon is my Jounin in melee range and still shooting his dart. A simple follow me/goto repeat into melee range fixes the issue 99 times out of 100. Though I do think doing Ninja's without Dark is just asking for a headache. |
I was responding to other posts that medic a pain because he'll run into melee instead of staying back like the others. If you look at it from the point of the melee primaries, they have the opposite problem. They like to stand back and fire their less powerful ranged attacks a lot of the time. Neither of which is hard to control. Just saying it's not a problem that is unique to mercs.
Ninja's are one of the few MMs I keep making because it looks so cool and they are fun. I just can't seems to decide on a secondary for myself that keeps me enjoying them while not nuts having to struggle to keep them alive at times. If only they'd make the radius wider on Twilight Grasp.
Wow. I see a lot of Merc hating. In the case of min/maxing, I suppose no its not the best in anything, but I definitely disagree with them being the worst. Its a matter of playstyle. Mercs/Traps goes very well together. It is an arduous road until you get force field generator, and the later powers but unlike most other sets, IMO anyways, there wasn't that feeling of "God, this is taking forever." -to kill some mobs when you only have one tier 2 pet, and constant focus fire isn't an issue since I always use the numpad keybinds.
You won't walk into a room with the same AOE effectiveness as the bots, and you won't have the Single target dmg of Ninjas either. However, you will have some serious control with prep time.
Someone above said that the Spec Ops mez's aren't useful due to the skills they cycle through. Again, I wholly disagree.
Between the tear gas 'nades, flash 'nades, and their rifle butt attack, You have a lot of lock down going on, optimally. Throw in on top of that- poison trap, seeker drones and caltrops and very rarely will you have things get out of control. I would say other than my perspective of the easier time with only one tier 2 pet though, its major positives are late. Definitely, worth it though.
Just like all MM sets, you can't really judge it until you get your last equips for 'em and playstyle is very key.
Forgot to add in, yes the medic/tier 1 always dies once you get your tier 3. All the MM sets suffer from this AI issue. Tier 1's are really just bodyguard and fodder in the mid to late levels, anyways. At least you get one that heals. If you deny him the 2nd upgrade he seems to be a bit less kamikaze. Summon soldiers - Dismiss Medic - Resummon Soldiers - Equip Medic. That's if you care enough though.
Hell, I keep forgetting to address it all. Your concern about a group heal gets answered with healing beacon. Yes it downright sucks with training enhancements. Yes, it only marginally improves with DO's. Once you get it 4-5 slotted with SO's though its pretty good. Not /Dark's "That saved my life just in time!" heal, but will still save your ***.
First thanks for all the responses. I did level a Mercs/Traps to about 14 before, and reading the posts has reminded me of sitting there and wondering why things aren't dead yet.
So that being said, in an effort to jack my own thread. Since I plan on running the Leadership powers, will I get some sweet stacking with Thugs? (I really like all that has been said about Bots, but the clanging. ) |
You will not get the benefit from the Enforcer's Leadership, but your thugs will get the benefit from your Leadership. Now, back to the OP!
There is no reason to ever go mercs is the problem. The resistance might allow them to survive where a thug wouldn't, but with proper enforcer slotting you're Thugs will survive longer then your mercs. Enforcers even do more damage then Spec ops. Thugs do more damage then Mercenaries and the Bruiser greatly out damages the commando.
It's not that merc's can't be effective, it's that they're the worst option no matter what. Bots for example are nearly identical in behavior and attacks. The difference is bots do energy damage which isn't resisted and the Assault Bolt drops fire patches and has a -regen debuff on one of it's attacks. THe fire patches eats up mob clusters and the -regen eats up AV's. Bubbles from tier 2 will protect the bots far more then the absurdly long cooldown CC abilities of the Spec Ops and you also have to healer bots instead of a single, very fragile medic. So to summeraize. Can you be effective with Mercs? Yes. Would you had been better off as Bots in every way? Yes. |
I *did* say I had no issues as Mercs/TA and got to 50 and was an effective MM... but then again, this was all before I16 difficulty sliders and even greater abilities to solo AVs and such. I didn't go out of my way to fight major AV fights as Mercs, but when I did, I was flattened for the most part. Valkyrie, Silver Mantis, Infernal, and other weak-range, strong-melee EBs I was able to handle, but, I have to concede that Mercs cannot outdamage AV regen (w/o Dark, but even pure empath defenders can outdamage AV regen w/ a pocket /Dark around..) It wasn't an issue for me because I didn't really care if I could solo Honoree, but in today's CoX environment, apparently these things are important. If you do want to solo AVs with mercs, try Poison, Traps, or Dark and stay far, far away from TA (though Silver Mantis is quite the joke w/ Mercs/TA)
What you argue, lareit, is completely different from what I'm arguing. True, Mercs will not survive as long as Bots when taking a beating, and they won't kill as fast as Thugs when they're delivering beatings, but they gain something in their middle-road approach by not being particularly good on either side of the spectrum.
If you don't want to deal with Spec Ops cooldown times, just have a macro or keybind that tells one of your SO to target an enemy and the other to not attack. You can effectively stagger the flashbangs and tear gases to keep the mobs locked down.
Both Spec Ops and Commando have sniper attacks, completely unique to Mercs, and add even more tactical depth to using the set.
Most of all of the Mercs attacks are long and wide cones that enemies don't run out of (unlike the Swarm Missiles of the Assbot), so I will reemphasize my previous point on Mercs specializing in taking out many many weaker enemies.
I can only give qualitative reasons for now (though this thread has gotten me to devote an entire server to testing Primary/Pain MMs quantitatively. Keep your eyes on the boards in the future), but I still think that the crowd control involved in Mercs makes up a little for the lack (though it's more of a "slightly less in magnitude") of orange numbers.
Ah I remember the discussion now. It was concluded that it was a waste of space because mm leadership is barely more than half what a defender gets.
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And MMs will always have someone to share the bonuses with, unlike a defender running solo.
So while the fact of the numbers is true, I think your conclusion is off.
I have no issues with my Merc MM so far, but he's only level 12.
But you don't get defenders redside, and MM numbers are only a tiny bit less than Corruptor numbers (who are, barring VEATs, the best redside).
And MMs will always have someone to share the bonuses with, unlike a defender running solo. So while the fact of the numbers is true, I think your conclusion is off. I have no issues with my Merc MM so far, but he's only level 12. |
Yeah. While a defender may get 18.75% damage out of assault, the mastermind spreads their 11.25% damage multiple times to every single pet. So a solo defender gets a nearly 19% damage boost, a mastermind gets 11.25%x7=cumulative 78.75% damage bonus to themselves and their pets' overall damage output. Not shabby.
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Dirges
This exactly why MM's would be overpowered if they got high bonuses on leadership, though. They have pets who are guaranteed to be near them at all times, or at least accessible. This is similar to why Brutes and Scrappers get low defense bonuses from pool powers. It's just plain necessary to balance them.
I have a Merc/Dark since the day MMs were released and I still love and play him today.
I *did* say I had no issues as Mercs/TA and got to 50 and was an effective MM... but then again, this was all before I16 difficulty sliders and even greater abilities to solo AVs and such. I didn't go out of my way to fight major AV fights as Mercs, but when I did, I was flattened for the most part. Valkyrie, Silver Mantis, Infernal, and other weak-range, strong-melee EBs I was able to handle, but, I have to concede that Mercs cannot outdamage AV regen (w/o Dark, but even pure empath defenders can outdamage AV regen w/ a pocket /Dark around..) It wasn't an issue for me because I didn't really care if I could solo Honoree, but in today's CoX environment, apparently these things are important. If you do want to solo AVs with mercs, try Poison, Traps, or Dark and stay far, far away from TA (though Silver Mantis is quite the joke w/ Mercs/TA) What you argue, lareit, is completely different from what I'm arguing. True, Mercs will not survive as long as Bots when taking a beating, and they won't kill as fast as Thugs when they're delivering beatings, but they gain something in their middle-road approach by not being particularly good on either side of the spectrum. If you don't want to deal with Spec Ops cooldown times, just have a macro or keybind that tells one of your SO to target an enemy and the other to not attack. You can effectively stagger the flashbangs and tear gases to keep the mobs locked down. Both Spec Ops and Commando have sniper attacks, completely unique to Mercs, and add even more tactical depth to using the set. Most of all of the Mercs attacks are long and wide cones that enemies don't run out of (unlike the Swarm Missiles of the Assbot), so I will reemphasize my previous point on Mercs specializing in taking out many many weaker enemies. I can only give qualitative reasons for now (though this thread has gotten me to devote an entire server to testing Primary/Pain MMs quantitatively. Keep your eyes on the boards in the future), but I still think that the crowd control involved in Mercs makes up a little for the lack (though it's more of a "slightly less in magnitude") of orange numbers. |
Damage, they're in dead last.
CC, the Lich and Oni both bring more then pretty much all of Mercs. You can't rely on Flashbangs on a 2 min cooldown and Tear gas on a 3 min cooldown to be your team's CC. The rest is grenades that often work against you're aoe abilities more then for. Thugs have next to none, firepatch fear and Hand Clap from the bruiser, but with Enforcer buff slotting they don't even need to CC their enemies. Bots get aoe stun grenades, Force fields, fire patch and even some obnoxious knockback.
Survival, they're dead last of the ranged dps. Ninja and Zombie make up for it with absurdly high damage and solid CC.
Sniper attack's aren't really that tactical, neither scar snipe does that much damage even combined with the auto crit from Stealth. Add that with the fact they only have 2 attacks to cycle with, they're the lowest damage tier 2 by a huge margin and all of their effective CC is on a long cooldown. The LRM is on a 4 min CD so forget adding it to your consistent damage reports.
There is no silver lining for the mercenaries. They're the worst MM set by a large margin and the fact they havn't gotten any real tweaks is baffling.
What they do offer is a crazy amount of def debuffing. I have often been tempted to make a merks/dark, simply because if I let my henchmen soften up a mob before using my targeted heal on them, I'm virtually guaranteed to hit.
I also like that they are ranged without as much knockback as the bots, which makes it possible for teammates to endure my companionship.
ive been playing my Merc/DM master for 30 months now, after reading all these issues that the mercs are the weakest i have to admit not once have i had issues bar serum which i dont use cause its bloody useless and not worth a power slot, i have a 50 crab spider and a 40+ widow with random alts, the spider i actually retired and will be sendin everything to my mm come later today, ive tryed ninjas robots, thugs but i keep going back to mercs, weither its a personal preference or not even with the new demon sums, i will be making one but theres no AT in this game will make me pick a new main character to play as, its not been the best of times to get him to 50 but its been worth it and i still has as much fun as i did when i first picked the AT
*Union* Dark lord of mercs and cookies!
@EU Great Cthulhu
I have a Ninja/Dark that just hit 32. So I got my last upgrade power hoping it would get me to enjoy it more, and I am not. I think it is the mix that has gotten to me, they melee, they range, sometimes the run around confused.
I figure I want a group that plays ranged, and I am not in love with listening to robots stop around behind me. I balance things in my play, I am not a full on Tankermind, but I am heavily reliant on Bodyguard. I am usually always the first to attack (sometimes I get it right enough against AoE mobs that I am the only AoE victim), then I do what I can and attack here or there.
So I am considering Mercs, but I need some tips on secondaries. I think Dark is awesome, it can heal and debuff. I don't like the poison animations at all. Traps has a lot of goodies, but I think I need a group heal the way I play. Trick Arrow just has no place in my heart. I have basically no experience with Pain and Therm.
So I want a group heal, and I know I need debuffing for those nasty fights. As with my Ninja/Dark I do plan to have Stamina and run Assault/Tactics. Also I love the whole soloing Elites thing, those are some good fights.
Thank you guys for any advice.
Protector: Tulare 50 Inv/SS/EM-ph1x3r 47 Bots/Traps
VIP: VIC-29(Traps/AR) - Corinth(Grav/FF) -Wrecka(Claws/SR)