A numbers question on multi-aspect enhancements
By
Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2010-04-23 06:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Why are you limiting yourself to Dual Aspect enhancements? When I'm Frankenslotting I go for useful triples where possible and then duals.
List of them here
Good example is AOE Mez sets, I usually go with 3 Acc/Recharge/Mez and 1 Mez/Recharge, giving me in 4 slots better values than 6 slotting usually does (actually small drop in Acc but not massively so, around 4% and about a 20% increase in Mez and Recharge).
Triples are usually where I see the best savings, 2 or 3 triples in a power and then a few Duals to finish it off.
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They are when those set based buffs buff accuracy, damage, end recovery and/or recharge.| I'm looking at Set enhancements, but ignoring set bonuses. Please do not bring those up. They are not relevant. |
Numbers in a void mean little, Sam.
If a power costs me 20 base end to use, and I can choose between either reducing that cost to 11 end but gain nothing else, or reducing that end cost to 12 and gain another 2.5 points of endurance and a global 2.5% damage buff, which do you think will benefit me more in the long run? That's the entire point of using SetIOs... the bonuses.
If you'd like, I can reload Mids and we can look at specific powers and slotting choices, but you have to also state "I only want 5 slots in power X instead of 6. How can I use multi-value IOs to keep my same level of enhancement versus 6 slotting basic IOs." We have to know what it is specifically you're shooting for.
Be well, people of CoH.
Carnifax has got it right. But there's another aspect to look at, too!
Let's say you slot Mako's Bite at level 50, ignoring the chance for damage poc.
You get:
Accuracy of 66.2%
Damage of 98%
End Mod of 66.2%
Recharge of 66.2%
From 5 slots. Common SOs grant a Damage Bonus of around 98 at 3 slots, Accuracy of 66 at 2 slots, End Reduction of 66 at 2 slots, and Recharge of 66 at 2 slots. So that's 7 slots of SOs to get the same benefit of 5 slots of SOs. Note that all these numbers are Pre-ED.
So yeah. You're not min-maxing by using sets, directly (as opposed to Frankenslotting) but you're definitely getting your bang for your buck.
-Rachel-
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I should probably have given a little bit of background on this, but I was worried of generating wrath for posting too much |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Why are you limiting yourself to Dual Aspect enhancements? When I'm Frankenslotting I go for useful triples where possible and then duals.
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The original idea is sort of a legacy of something I and a few others have been throwing around for some time - the divorce of the dual-aspect enhancement concept from that of "rare loot." In other words, I'm looking at dual-aspect enhancements irrespective of the sets they are in and what else those sets supply. The "why" of it is too long to explain (though I will if you want me to), but what matters here is the relationship that dual-aspect slotting has with single-aspect slotting.
The original need for this question came up when I was making mental preparations for suggesting something along those lines at some indeterminate point in the future, when I realised I didn't actually have any idea as to what the concrete numbers are. I eyeballed the ratio at around one multi-aspect enhancement aspect being about 2/3 of a single-aspect enhancements', but it's actually a lot worse, roughly at around 63%. So what I originally figured would be a massive gain based on "finger maths" ended up being a lot less impressive in practice.
The whole merit of even thinking about suggesting anything in this regard is the level of gain and flexibility the system in itself provides which, as of right now, does not look like it's very high. I COULD look into triple-aspect enhancements, that much is true, but for the purposes of what I'm actually dealing with, they are kind of besides the point. I'm trying to see if I can't see measurable, meaningful gain to be had with such a system. If I can see that, then I'll move forward with my research and planning. If not, then there very well may not be a point in continuing this line of investigation at all.
I'm kind of stumped at the moment, since it feels like I'm missing something, but I just don't know what.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think I'm confused. The purpose of this question is to find out if ONLY the dual-aspect enhancements are worth enough for the salvage they utilize when making them?
Be well, people of CoH.
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You are too focused on just the 3 aspects you were originally enhancing. Since they were already butting into ED a franken-slotter would branch out.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I should probably have given a little bit of background on this, but I was worried of generating wrath for posting too much
The original idea is sort of a legacy of something I and a few others have been throwing around for some time - the divorce of the dual-aspect enhancement concept from that of "rare loot." In other words, I'm looking at dual-aspect enhancements irrespective of the sets they are in and what else those sets supply. The "why" of it is too long to explain (though I will if you want me to), but what matters here is the relationship that dual-aspect slotting has with single-aspect slotting. The original need for this question came up when I was making mental preparations for suggesting something along those lines at some indeterminate point in the future, when I realised I didn't actually have any idea as to what the concrete numbers are. I eyeballed the ratio at around one multi-aspect enhancement aspect being about 2/3 of a single-aspect enhancements', but it's actually a lot worse, roughly at around 63%. So what I originally figured would be a massive gain based on "finger maths" ended up being a lot less impressive in practice. The whole merit of even thinking about suggesting anything in this regard is the level of gain and flexibility the system in itself provides which, as of right now, does not look like it's very high. I COULD look into triple-aspect enhancements, that much is true, but for the purposes of what I'm actually dealing with, they are kind of besides the point. I'm trying to see if I can't see measurable, meaningful gain to be had with such a system. If I can see that, then I'll move forward with my research and planning. If not, then there very well may not be a point in continuing this line of investigation at all. I'm kind of stumped at the moment, since it feels like I'm missing something, but I just don't know what. |
For example in those same six slots I would go (sticking to 2 aspect enhancers):
Acc/Dam, Acc/End, Dam/End, Dam/End, Dam/Rchg, End/Rchg
Giving:
53% Acc
95.9% Dmg
95.9% End
53% Rchg
Getting about 8 to 10 slots worth of enhancing out of 6 slots.
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Errr? Why is 63% "a lot worse" than 2/3rds?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I eyeballed the ratio at around one multi-aspect enhancement aspect being about 2/3 of a single-aspect enhancements', but it's actually a lot worse, roughly at around 63%. So what I originally figured would be a massive gain based on "finger maths" ended up being a lot less impressive in practice.
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I'm perplexed.
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I'm looking at whether there might be some merit in creating dual-aspect enhancements that are not tied to any specific set, are not restricted to only one instance per power and come in all varieties you could need. As you can tell, there are plenty of unanswered questions with these, and a lot of things left to think about, but I want to know if there's anything to be gained from it before I think about the details.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I think I'm confused. The purpose of this question is to find out if ONLY the dual-aspect enhancements are worth enough for the salvage they utilize when making them?
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Originally Posted by Krogoth
You are too focused on just the 3 aspects you were originally enhancing. Since they were already butting into ED a franken-slotter would branch out.
For example in those same six slots I would go (sticking to 2 aspect enhancers): Acc/Dam, Acc/End, Dam/End, Dam/End, Dam/Rchg, End/Rchg Giving: 53% Acc 95.9% Dmg 95.9% End 53% Rchg Getting about 8 to 10 slots worth of enhancing out of 6 slots. |
...
Huh? How the hell did that happen? Yeah, my spreadsheet confirms your numbers and, indeed, it does show a 53% rise in Recharge slotting without actually showing any decrease in any other aspect of the power. Hmm... I'll have to look into this a bit more, but you have a point. Seems there's something to be gained there. Probably worth investigating.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Errr? Why is 63% "a lot worse" than 2/3rds?
I'm perplexed. |
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Well, I guess that settles it. There is merit in looking into dual-aspect enhancements, so it's back to work on that one. I can't promise anything decent will come out of this, but I'll try to put the data to good use.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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HOs and SHOs are already in the game....
| I'm looking at whether there might be some merit in creating dual-aspect enhancements that are not tied to any specific set, are not restricted to only one instance per power and come in all varieties you could need |
Be well, people of CoH.
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I'd just like to point out that that 26.5% recharge is meaningful. 1) It's more than you had before and 2) you haven't lost anything to gain it and 3) you're still up in your other attributes.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Say, go with Recharge/Endurance instead of Damage/Endurance. Let's see... That brings me down to 99.9% damage enhancement, which is actually still more than I had with single-aspect slotting, so I guess that's a worthwhile sacrifice. But to what end? For a 26.5% recharge buff? Bah. I could drop another damage slot, but then I start cutting into my damage slotting from single-aspect slotting, and that's starting to bother me.
So, again, given the initial single-aspect slotting, how can I use dual-aspect enhancements to give myself extra recharge with a meaningful percentage? Because I honestly can't seem to see it. In essence, what am I doing (theorising) wrong? |
Personally, I look at recharge enhancements as a different kind of damage enhancement. It's the same damage in less time, so over all you do more damage.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Ahh another satisfied customer. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
In fact, with Krogoth's slotting, I'm actually seeing an increase of 73%, which is HUGE! Huh... That's actually more than I expected, though I can kind of see why.
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And so it begins...
Soon Sam will be calculating the exact recharge needed per attack for specifically calculated attack chains, choosing set bonuses that will grant the precise amount of global recharge necessary for those chains, and reconfiguring his builds with stamina to fuel those attack chains.
200 DPS, Sam... the goal is 200 DPS.
/insert evil laugh
Be well, people of CoH.
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HUR HUR slots.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
"Why doncha slot for both
 " |
I sort of see your point though. Say we add in HOs, you could do 3 Nucleous, 2 recharge, one end, to get 94.93% damage/accuracy, 42.4% end, 83.32% recharge, a total of 315.58%
Try to use just dual IOs with say 2x D/R, 2x D/E, 2x D/A, you'd get 103.85% damage, and 53% to accuracy/recharge and endurance for 262.85 total, or 52.73% less "enhancing."
The problem in this scenario is that you're wasting so much damage slotting because of ED. The sets are designed this way, somewhat annoyingly, so that with most full l50 damage sets you're wasting a lot of potential enhancement to ED.
I think to see the best possible enhancements you need to either go for things with all HO slottable bonuses (like doing 3 nucleous/3membrane in followup) or adding in the 3/4 type IOs.
- With 2 A/D/R, 1 A/D/E/R, 1 D/E/R, 1 A/D/E and 1 D/E you can get 99.84% damage, 85.71% endurance and 80.94% accuracy/recharge for 347% enhancement.
- With 3nuc/3mem you get 94.93% to accuracy/damage/recharge and 56% to tohit. Pretend it's all schedule A for comparison, and it's 379.72%. Of course very few powers can take advantage of this.
P.S. do you mind if I take that quote completely out of context and use it for my signature, because of its immense hilarity?
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Crap what if he uses Buildup, or fights something with some resistance? RUINED!
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
200 DPS, Sam... the goal is 200 DPS.
/insert evil laugh |
If these are for melee attacks, I would suggest slotting all 3 Crushing Impact Triples, and Mako's Quad, Triple and Dam/Rech. I don't have Mid's here at work to confirm, but I believe that will give you ~81% on Acc and End, and 95+% on Dam and Rech. And you'll get 2.63% HP bonus on that. Good times!
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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That's average DPS against a foe with 20% dam-res.
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Originally Posted by Psara
Crap what if he uses Buildup, or fights something with some resistance? RUINED!
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Be well, people of CoH.
It's a Pity Bill Z can't come over to the Euro Servers...I know a guy who has two chars I think you'd love to meet
Warscythe and Kahn, both played by @Stryke. I think either of them fighting Bill Z in PvP would possibly bring about the end of the world...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Doesn't sound like their kind of thing.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
It's a Pity Bill Z can't come over to the Euro Servers...I know a guy who has two chars I think you'd love to meet
Warscythe and Kahn, both played by @Stryke. I think either of them fighting Bill Z in PvP would possibly bring about the end of the world... |
I suggest a race to knock down more pylons than the other.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
<.<
>.>
I don't have a PvP build, at the moment, but I have been known to accept an arena invite from time to time.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Ah, but you're slotting in such a way that you're gimping yourself by running up against ED. What if your slotting goal was to maintain the EXACT same amount of accuracy, end red and damage but add 60% recharge. Wouldn't that be beneficial?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Accuracy enhancement: 53%
Endurance reduction: 95.9% Damage enhancement: 103.9% As expected, the lowest enhancement value, in this case Accuracy, got the biggest boost, whereas the higher ones got less. Now, theoretically, this should have given me about 63% more overall enhancement, which is one enhancement and a bit, but in actual practice thanks to ED, it only ended up giving me around 28% more. |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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So, you're basically working up some sort of suggestion proposal for "common dual IOs" that could be purchased from a fixed-price source (NPC, table, etc.) and/or dropped like more common IO recipes? Sounds interesting, keep us informed. (Chances are I'd be in favor of it; the set bonuses would still leave the existing set recipes more powerful and valuable, but it would greatly improve the mid-level situation where there's a shortage of available recipes to frankenslot with, and help provide a smoother path / power curve into the world of advanced IO slotting.) |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The original idea is sort of a legacy of something I and a few others have been throwing around for some time - the divorce of the dual-aspect enhancement concept from that of "rare loot." In other words, I'm looking at dual-aspect enhancements irrespective of the sets they are in and what else those sets supply.
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As you seemed to have realized after looking at Krogoth's example, the key is that multi-aspect enhancements are best at enhancing multiple aspects. Go figure
Less tautologically, they completely fail with powers with only one enhanceable aspect; on powers with two or three aspects, they are primarily not for improving power levels, but reducing slot numbers required (which allows you to use those slots to make other powers more effective); on powers with four aspects (very common: acc, dam, end, rech), they provide a significant boost; on powers with five or more aspects (e.g. attack with a debuff component) they are the only practical way to fully enhance.
Miuramir, Windchime, Sariel the Golden, Scarlet Antinomist...
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The slot 'savings' isnt quite as apparent when dealing with lvl 50s as it is while leveling. At lvl 27, when you're still a bit thin on slots, you can benefit greatly from slotting 4x lvl 30 Acc/Dmg/End, which give you about 17.5% to each, ending up with 70% of each- more than 2 SOs, for 4 slots, instead of the 6 it would take to get those 2 SOs each. Now you can put those last 2 slots into another power until you get to the mid to late 30s, when you start to get an abundance of slots.
Now if you really feel the need, you can come along and drop in 2x Dmg/Rech (or whatever you feel light on) in those last 2 slots, getting another +21.8% (lvl 30 numbers) to each apiece, or 43.6% total, putting you way the heck and gone past ED on DMG, and +1.5 SOs on End, netting you +113% DMG (before ED), 70% ACC and END, and 43% RECH -the equivalent of 9 SOs for your six slots. And that's just with lvl 30-35 Numbers (I find that lvl range to be the most cost effective)- once you get to lvl 50s, you gain even more flexibility- an Acc/Dmg/End at that lvl gives 21.2% to each, meaning you'd only have to use 3 slots to get 6 SOs worth.
When you go back to put in those 'extra' Dual Aspects, look for ones that match your current triples, there are several sets that give bonus Regen, Recovery, or even Acc for as little as 2 pieces of a set.
Almost all of my single-target Melee attacks get 5 slots of Crushing Impact, (skipping the DMG/RCH piece, as the set is already heavy DMG, and the set bonus makes up for some RCH) ending up with 115% DMG (before ED- if you actually slot the full set, its a ridiculous 141% before ED), 68% ACC and END, and 42% Rech (About 8.5 SOs in 5 slots) just from the enhancements alone (lvl 35 numbers), plus the following set bonuses:
-2.2% Immobilize Duration (on you)
+1.13 Max Health
+7% Global Acc
+5% Global Rech
Most of my Controllers' Holds/Slows/Immobs get slotted with 4x (whatever)/Acc/Rech, and then if I have extra slots later on, I drop some Procs in them, since proc' ing for 70 is like a super-uber critical, what with normal controller damage around 20 or so.
Edit: AND YOU NEVER HAVE TO REPLACE THEM!!!
Funny... as someone who has stayed completely away from the multi-aspect enhancements... I have definitely wondered about similar things... And recently have been glancing at things and planning to take a look at the numbers... I always figured I'd lose some numbers in order to gain other numbers through the usage of these inventions... However, I've been curious to find out if I was incorrect... And, thus far, I have eluded such a discovery even when hanging around Dechs
It sort of makes sense that I'd get the numbers from a thread started by someone in a similar mindset like Sam...
*covers eyes and ears*
*begins chanting softly to himself*
I do not want to spend time sorting through invention enhancements...
I do not want to spend time sorting through invention enhancements...
I do not want to spend time sorting through invention enhancements...
Bah... Thanks a lot Sam!! 
So... all these people saying that the earth is round might be right? *sigh*
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Nah guy just use HOs. you're fine.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
So... all these people saying that the earth is round might be right? *sigh*
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At the risk of getting badmouthed for starting threads again, I have kind of a serious question about numbers, because my current calculations are starting to confound me. It has to do with multi-aspect enhancements, and how people keep telling me to use them. I'd ask a question to the effect of "Should I slot for this or for that?" and people would tell me "Why doncha slot for both
" Now, as an avid avoider of Inventions, I've never really experimented with multi-aspect enhancements, but I've always heard that they save slots. So do they? Well, I tracked down a few bare bones numbers and tried to work it out at level 50.
A level 50 (Schedule A) Common enhancement provides 42.4% enhancement, whereas a level 50 (Schedule A) Set dual-aspect enhancement provides a combined 53% enhancement, or 26.5% to each aspect, as I understand the numbers. So, let's take a power with about as common a slotting as I have in my builds, which would be a power single-slotted for accuracy, double-slotted for endurance reduction and triple-slotted for damage. With ED accounted for, this power would have the following stats:
Accuracy enhancement: 42.4%
Endurance reduction: 83.3%
Damage enhancement: 99.1%
Off the cuffs, I thought about theoretically replacing those with six dual-aspect enhancements about as follows: 2x Accuracy/Damage, 4x Endurance/Damage. I don't know if such enhancements actually exist, but that's besides the point. Also, the specific pairings aren't important, but those were really the only ones I could pick since I needed six damage components and I couldn't pair up Damage/Damage, since that should be illegal (it would be a single-aspect enhancement). This slotting theoretically gave me as follows:
Accuracy enhancement: 53%
Endurance reduction: 95.9%
Damage enhancement: 103.9%
As expected, the lowest enhancement value, in this case Accuracy, got the biggest boost, whereas the higher ones got less. Now, theoretically, this should have given me about 63% more overall enhancement, which is one enhancement and a bit, but in actual practice thanks to ED, it only ended up giving me around 28% more.
Suppose I was performance-conscious. Suppose I wanted to save slots as people are advising me and use multi-aspect enhancements. Suppose I wanted to keep the same enhancement values I had with single-aspect enhancement (or better) and add in some recharge, as well. What could I do? How could I achieve this? Well, from what I have slotted, I can take out aspects one by one and replacing them with recharge to see how that goes. So let's see.
The first thing I could look to remove is one of the two accuracy aspects. However, that is VERY problematic, because it drops my accuracy from 53% to 26.5%, which is barely more than DO levels. Not good. So not this. What else, then? How about taking out an endurance reduction aspect? Say, go with Damage/Recharge instead of Damage/Endurance? OK, that kind of works, but it drops my endurance slotting down by about 5% from single-aspect slotting. Hmm... OK, this I don't really like. What else can I take out? How about a damage aspect? Say, go with Recharge/Endurance instead of Damage/Endurance. Let's see... That brings me down to 99.9% damage enhancement, which is actually still more than I had with single-aspect slotting, so I guess that's a worthwhile sacrifice. But to what end? For a 26.5% recharge buff? Bah. I could drop another damage slot, but then I start cutting into my damage slotting from single-aspect slotting, and that's starting to bother me.
So, again, given the initial single-aspect slotting, how can I use dual-aspect enhancements to give myself extra recharge with a meaningful percentage? Because I honestly can't seem to see it. In essence, what am I doing (theorising) wrong?
*note*
I'm looking at Set enhancements, but ignoring set bonuses. Please do not bring those up. They are not relevant.