Intangibility Powerset (Tanker primary, Scrapper/Stalker/Brute secondary)
By
CoyoteShaman,
Posted on: 2010-04-22 24:42 in Suggestions and Ideas
Going to make several suggestions and offer explanations to why I would change things.
First things first: The Intangibility toggle needs to go away. Immediately. No question. When you go intangible, powers you've used still maintain their effect. so it's completely conceivable that a tanker would Taunt a group of foes, toggle on intangibility, and be utterly immune to all their attacks. Completely. Without reprisal. Meanwhile the NPCs can't change targets or react to the fact that their target is intangible. I actually learned about this on a Zombie Mastermind. I used an intangibility temporary power after getting aggro for the team. My pets became intangible along with me. And though I couldn't damage anyone or heal my poor, poor zombies, the enemy couldn't damage us. the aggro was already set in and my team mopped up the enemies who were fighting intangible zombie.
So yes. That's utterly broken.
I do like the Mez Protection power to -some- degree. It'll help a character who is standing up from a defeat (like a Regen Scrapper, who is out of his stun almost instantly)
I also like that the set could be Defense-based. VERY nice idea.
So! Here are my suggestions.
1: Fold Space: Toggle Self +Def (Melee, Ranged). Half the numbers of Focused Fighting. Basically split between Melee and Ranged. You fold space around yourself to create a pocket of intangibility.
2: Immaterial: Always On Self +Mez protection, +Mez resist, +def (AoE). The AoE defense should be fairly small, as this is a powerful ability.
3: Incorporeal Brawler: Toggle Self +def (Melee, Ranged). Identical to Fold Space. Why have two powers which give the same modifiers? No set has done it, before. It basically turns these two toggles into "Have to Have, always on" powers. This could help to offset the inherent awesome of a constant mez-protection
4: Wrest Free: Click Mez-Protection. Going to suggest NOT making this into a stackable power and also shortening it's duration considerably. It would basically make the inherent (Immaterial) useless outside of the AoE defense buff.
5: Blink: Toggle Self +def (AoE) Defense Debuff Resistance. Slipping back and forth through intangibility to avoid area attacks, just as you described it.
6: Ghost-Touch: You've gotta pick one or the other on the Aura. Damage, Self Buff, or Status effect. You can't have all three in the same toggle, though all can have +Taunt. I'm going to suggest something radically different: Short Ranged AoE Foe Teleport +Taunt, AoE. Five Targets max, range 25 feet.
7: Uncertainty Principle: Self, always on +Defense Debuff resistance, +Ranged, Aoe Defense. Since I put the three toggles at a lower tier, this seems like a good place for an inherent that buffs all three. Notice that, with this power, AoE defense becomes the set's "Strong Suit"
8: Scramble: Click power with melee range. Self +MaxHP +HP Foe Minor Nrg Damage. AoE Self-Heal with enemy damaging component.
9: Intangible: Click long recharge Self intangible, AoE taunt effect. Makes you intangible for 10 seconds with a 7 second PBAoE taunt. If you're fighting foes who can also go intangible (Carnival Illusionists) you can fight them. No "Only Affecting Self" application.
I like the -idea- but the way you've got it implemented is too abusable.
-Rachel-
First off, let me say--I love the concept. Unfortunately, -ONLY- the concept. I'm guessing you don't pvp? This would not only break an already broken pvp system, but would reduce it to nothing but intangible characters going into pvp zones, since you could break away into intangible status at any point, whenever you want, if things go bad. That is bad.
Not only would this break pvp, but it would break pve too. Why bother inviting any other scrapper/brute AT to a master tf, when you know any intangible player could just toggle out to escape death?
That said, I would love to see a pvp match between two intangible scrappers...although on second thought...I would imagine it would be overly long and boring, if they keep jumping in and out of phase.
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I like this a LOT more. If anything, I would love to take a whack at Diabolique with this defense set.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
1: Fold Space: Toggle Self +Def (Melee, Ranged). Half the numbers of Focused Fighting. Basically split between Melee and Ranged. You fold space around yourself to create a pocket of intangibility.
2: Immaterial: Always On Self +Mez protection, +Mez resist, +def (AoE). The AoE defense should be fairly small, as this is a powerful ability. 3: Incorporeal Brawler: Toggle Self +def (Melee, Ranged). Identical to Fold Space. Why have two powers which give the same modifiers? No set has done it, before. It basically turns these two toggles into "Have to Have, always on" powers. This could help to offset the inherent awesome of a constant mez-protection 4: Wrest Free: Click Mez-Protection. Going to suggest NOT making this into a stackable power and also shortening it's duration considerably. It would basically make the inherent (Immaterial) useless outside of the AoE defense buff. 5: Blink: Toggle Self +def (AoE) Defense Debuff Resistance. Slipping back and forth through intangibility to avoid area attacks, just as you described it. 6: Ghost-Touch: You've gotta pick one or the other on the Aura. Damage, Self Buff, or Status effect. You can't have all three in the same toggle, though all can have +Taunt. I'm going to suggest something radically different: Short Ranged AoE Foe Teleport +Taunt, AoE. Five Targets max, range 25 feet. 7: Uncertainty Principle: Self, always on +Defense Debuff resistance, +Ranged, Aoe Defense. Since I put the three toggles at a lower tier, this seems like a good place for an inherent that buffs all three. Notice that, with this power, AoE defense becomes the set's "Strong Suit" 8: Scramble: Click power with melee range. Self +MaxHP +HP Foe Minor Nrg Damage. AoE Self-Heal with enemy damaging component. 9: Intangible: Click long recharge Self intangible, AoE taunt effect. Makes you intangible for 10 seconds with a 7 second PBAoE taunt. If you're fighting foes who can also go intangible (Carnival Illusionists) you can fight them. No "Only Affecting Self" application. -Rachel- |
Super. 
I admit I'm not very good at defense sets, since I usually play support characters, just had the idea and thought I would share. Thanks a lot for your suggestions, Steampunkette, they sound great.
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So your argument is "You can taunt and then go intangible. Broken!" but then suggest a tier 9 that does exactly that but with one click of a button? I fail to see your logic.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
So yes. That's utterly broken. |
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
This would not only break an already broken pvp system, but would reduce it to nothing but intangible characters going into pvp zones, since you could break away into intangible status at any point, whenever you want, if things go bad. That is bad.
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Solution to the PvP woes: -Inventions temp powers and PvP purchasable temp powers that grant phase shift. Done and done.
There's a reason the devs implemented the Phase attacks Phase rule in PvP. No one will be 100% safe with just intangibility.
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As a Toggle clicked on and off at the tanker/scrapper/stalker/brute's leisure? Yes. It's broken.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
So your argument is "You can taunt and then go intangible. Broken!" but then suggest a tier 9 that does exactly that but with one click of a button? I fail to see your logic.
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As a 10 second click once every several minutes (perhaps ignoring recharge?) it's not.
Short-lived click versus almost always on power. The duration, recharge, and utility all come into play when you're balancing something, Leo.
-Rachel-
For one, the toggle on off utility is already built with a disadvantage. You can't do anything with it on. And for two, the OP never said the recharge of the intangibility toggle. It could have a decent rech so toggling it on/off isn't as simple as you'd think.
PS: the tier 9 you suggest is *worse* than a pool power which at least lasts 30sec. That's not good.
I disagree on both counts, Leo.
On the first count: Being able to be intangible for any length of time the player chooses is broken. It means a player at level 1 can toggle it on and run through level 50 zones without being struck. Ever.
It means a total armor toggle, utterly undefeatable by NPCs of any stripe. Fighting an AV? Taunt, Toggle, wait 'til it attacks a teammate to de-toggle. Taunt, toggle. Continue. Renders the AV/EB/GM powerless to hurt the party (save through AoE attacks which, generally speaking, do less damage than melee or ranged attacks). If it's got a long recharge: Taunt, Toggle, wait 'til the team is under attack, detoggle and rely on your other defenses/party heals until it recharges, taunt, toggle, repeat.
"But you can't fight while it's on!" No... But you can regen/recovery, retoggle anything that might've detoggled from end-sapping or holds, etc.
As for your second part: The 30 second un-adjustable duration of the pool power is both a blessing -and- a curse. Especially for a tanker on a team of Squishies fighting an AV. Once it's on, it's on. And you're stuck standing there for 30 seconds (far longer than any taunt-effect) while the AV is wandering over to kill your entire remaining party. Remember that this is a defensive set used by Stalkers, Scrappers, Tankers, and Brutes.
Now... If you can't escape your foe in a ten second pell-mell run, then there's already something wrong with how you play. So it's usefulness as an "Escape" button is still valid. Ten Seconds of Regen and Recovery buffs while not attacking or being hurt should account for most of your hit points returning by the time it detoggles (assuming your teammates have those powers or you have Health and Stamina) which makes it an excellent "Hold the Phone" power with the taunt keeping aggro (mostly) on you. However it doesn't lock you into 30 seconds of waiting around.
So I disagree that it's "Worse" than the pool power, and contend that with a seven second "Taunt" effect it is, in fact, -far- better.
-Rachel-
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This argument is useless. A stalker can walk nearly all zones without being harassed from level one. That anyone, Tanker or no, can walk around a zone and not be attacked is no more a balancing point than an endurance-less 100% invis.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
On the first count: Being able to be intangible for any length of time the player chooses is broken. It means a player at level 1 can toggle it on and run through level 50 zones without being struck. Ever. |
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| It means a total armor toggle, utterly undefeatable by NPCs of any stripe. Fighting an AV? Taunt, Toggle, wait 'til it attacks a teammate to de-toggle. Taunt, toggle. Continue. Renders the AV/EB/GM powerless to hurt the party (save through AoE attacks which, generally speaking, do less damage than melee or ranged attacks). If it's got a long recharge: Taunt, Toggle, wait 'til the team is under attack, detoggle and rely on your other defenses/party heals until it recharges, taunt, toggle, repeat. |
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Remember that this is a defensive set used by Stalkers, Scrappers, Tankers, and Brutes. Now... If you can't escape your foe in a ten second pell-mell run, then there's already something wrong with how you play. So it's usefulness as an "Escape" button is still valid. Ten Seconds of Regen and Recovery buffs while not attacking or being hurt should account for most of your hit points returning by the time it detoggles (assuming your teammates have those powers or you have Health and Stamina) which makes it an excellent "Hold the Phone" power with the taunt keeping aggro (mostly) on you. However it doesn't lock you into 30 seconds of waiting around. So I disagree that it's "Worse" than the pool power, and contend that with a seven second "Taunt" effect it is, in fact, -far- better. |
You're putting far too much weight on the enemy not being able to attack you and not enough weight on you not being able to hit back...you know, the job of Stalkers, Scrappers and Brutes?
And a Tanker that just taunts every now and then and phases is less effective than a Tanker that just simply taunts. Remember that.
It still seems kind of wrong to me that the powerset would not have a Phase Shift analogue at the beginning of the set. If Intangibility is your power, shouldn't the character at least be able to get Phase Shift earlier than other characters and without having to use three power picks and one of his power pool choices? I really think the concept needs Phase Shift in it, even if it works like the one we already have.
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I'm not sure if you're just simplifying things for sake of argument, or if you actually think Taunt is a status effect with a duration (and that's true in PvP, that is how it works there), but in PvE a Taunt is not a status effect. Using Taunt (or having Taunt applied by a power) adds a fixed amount of threat to the target hit by the taunt, and there is no duration on that - your "threat" number simply increases, and targets attack whomever has the highest threat. |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
The 30 second un-adjustable duration of the pool power is both a blessing -and- a curse. Especially for a tanker on a team of Squishies fighting an AV. Once it's on, it's on. And you're stuck standing there for 30 seconds (far longer than any taunt-effect) while the AV is wandering over to kill your entire remaining party.
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Regular taunting generally will keep the taunter's threat level well above those of others with active play, but if all you do is taunt, toggle, taunt, your threat will quickly fall off the scale and someone else will have more threat than you. To successfully tank, you have to be an active participant; simply taunting something while others attack, especially at a rate lower than "as soon as it recharges", will not be sufficient, especially in longer fights such as against AVs.
I'm not sure a first-level intangibility toggle is a good idea for a set power either, but that's because of the limited usefulness of intangibility itself, and not because I think such a toggle would be unbalanced as a tanking tool.
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Ehhhhh... The invis thing I'll bite. The No.Phase thing I can't back you up on. No.Phase is a flat 90 second state for ALL powers. So once every minute and a half you can turn on your toggle and have it -do- something? Either it's broken (since nothing can touch you at all while it's on, and it lasts forever) or it's crap (since you can't put it up any time you like and it's your -basic- power for the set)|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
This argument is useless. A stalker can walk nearly all zones without being harassed from level one. That anyone, Tanker or no, can walk around a zone and not be attacked is no more a balancing point than an endurance-less 100% invis.
And then there is phase suppression. You know? The 'No.Phase' buff you get after dropping from a phased state? That flies in the face of your argument. You'd taunt, toggle on, wait until aggro wears off, toggle off, taunt and *oops* gotta wait until the 'No.Phase' and the toggle to recharge. And that's where you fail to understand how much 'Worse' this is to a pool power. Because, on a Stalker, Taunting foes and phasing is USELESS! Because taunting foes and then being unable to attack on a Scrapper detracts from your job. Because on a Brute, being unable to attack anything is punishment enough without taking up your best armor power. You're putting far too much weight on the enemy not being able to attack you and not enough weight on you not being able to hit back...you know, the job of Stalkers, Scrappers and Brutes? And a Tanker that just taunts every now and then and phases is less effective than a Tanker that just simply taunts. Remember that. |
As for the Tier 9 on Brutes, and Stalkers: For Stalkers it could be made into an AoE Placate, rather than taunt. On Scrappers it'd be used, primarily, as a "Get away!" power, regardless of taunt-effect, and Brutes would still gain Fury from being attacked and would likely use it as a "Crash-save" power from Super-strength...
Anyway... You're still neglecting to argue against the fact that you could toggle it on Mid-Fight and LEAVE IT THERE. Permanently. Forever. Leaving an AV to stand there swinging at air for however long. No other powerset has the ability to ignore all damage and danger completely for a limitless (or nigh-limitless) period of time every 90 seconds.
Also, Arguing that "It's ten seconds a Brute can't swing!" in the post directly after arguing that "Longer Duration is better" is kinda counter-intuitive... Is it worse or better for a brute?
And yes, Monkey Spirit, I understand that it doesn't have an actual intangibility power outside of the tier 9. If you wanna take another crack at the set, be my guest! Though toggles are right-out and multiple intangibility powers would be useless. As Leo mentioned No.Phase would keep you from using more than one intangible power every 90 seconds.
-Rachel-
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Actually, Eiko, you're both right AND wrong!|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I'm not sure if you're just simplifying things for sake of argument, or if you actually think Taunt is a status effect with a duration (and that's true in PvP, that is how it works there), but in PvE a Taunt is not a status effect. Using Taunt (or having Taunt applied by a power) adds a fixed amount of threat to the target hit by the taunt, and there is no duration on that - your "threat" number simply increases, and targets attack whomever has the highest threat.
Regular taunting generally will keep the taunter's threat level well above those of others with active play, but if all you do is taunt, toggle, taunt, your threat will quickly fall off the scale and someone else will have more threat than you. To successfully tank, you have to be an active participant; simply taunting something while others attack, especially at a rate lower than "as soon as it recharges", will not be sufficient, especially in longer fights such as against AVs. I'm not sure a first-level intangibility toggle is a good idea for a set power either, but that's because of the limited usefulness of intangibility itself, and not because I think such a toggle would be unbalanced as a tanking tool. |
Your comment that it wasn't a status effect with a duration isn't -quite- right. A Tanker's Taunt is +400% aggro for 15 seconds on the target taunted. It's not a flat status-effect, but it definitely has a duration.
As for stealing aggro from the tank with a direct taunt on a foe: Possible, Plausible, but not probable as a common event. All I have is anecdotal evidence, but so long as you've got a tanker-taunt-bot you've got a party that isn't directly attacked. Whether the target is an AV, a GM, or an Underling. I think, perhaps, the 400% mark is the top of the aggro scale and difficult to achieve WITHOUT a taunt power.
But okay. By all means: Design a solution to the perceived problem! Give me a different Tier-9 which works, Add in a Phasing power lower in the roster if you like. This goes for you, Leo and Monkey, too! Rather than tell me you don't like it, offer a solution that we can work on together. Forward movement of the discussion rather than lateral arguing.
But I still feel a Toggle Phase is a horrendously poor idea.
-Rachel-
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Only if it's been changed. The Tanker gets +400% threat for being a Tanker, but then again a Scrapper gets +300% for being a Scrapper. |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Your comment that it wasn't a status effect with a duration isn't -quite- right. A Tanker's Taunt is +400% aggro for 15 seconds on the target taunted. It's not a flat status-effect, but it definitely has a duration.
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Otherwise, Taunt adds a threat multiplier of 1000*duration. Without attacks to boost that multiplier, it'll easily be outstripped by people that actually attack, especially other high-threat ATs like Brutes and Scrappers (particularly after you factor in many of these ATs will have taunts (often in an aura) of their own).
With my Tanker, I often find that a taunt alone is not sufficient to strip aggro. A taunt coupled with an attack, however, is an entirely different matter. The intangibility toggle prevents that attack, so I doubt an intangible-toggling taunter will be holding aggro off a team.
That said, I don't disagree with your suggestion. I do think a first-level intangibility toggle is a bad idea - but that's because intangibility itself is of limited usefulness, not because intangible taunting is overpowered.
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I do remember this already being suggest a while back, but the general consensus was that it was going to be over powered.
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Originally Posted by MonkeySpirit
Hi, everyone!
I came up with an idea for an Intangibility-based powerset that would let us mimic the fighting styles of characters such as Shadow Cat or Miss Deep. The logic behind this concept is based on: - Being able to shift into another dimension is a pretty selfish ability, so the powerset should work better when solo than on teams. Taken to the logical extreme, every bullet you let shift through you should still be able to hit a teammate who's standing behind you. This last point doesn't sound like a fun mechanic to implement, but a solo focus should still be there. - A controllable phase shift toggle belongs in this set like Improved Invisibility belongs in Illusion Control. I know the devs changed Phase Shift to a click with a long recharge for PvP reason, but is it that bad that we couldn't make an exception for one powerset? - Characters who can become intangible actually spend most of their time NOT being intangible so that they can actually affect their foes and eventually defeat them. At the same time, attacks that you do shift through, shouldn't deal any damage at all (defense set instead of resistance set) regardless of what kind of attack it is: you're essentially *not there* to take any damage so you don't care if it's a fireball of a bullet (positional defense instead of typed defense). This makes the set similar to Super Reflexes, but with the opposite priorities: the power order for SR is ranged-AoE-melee, since it's easier to out-maneuver a projectile coming at you from a long distance than it is to dodge a large object trying to hit you in close quarters. For a phase-shifter the order should be the other way round: you're just going to stand there and let stuff go through you anyway, so what you need to do is mostly to detect incoming attacks, which is easier for big melee attacks than for bullets coming at you from all angles of the room (so the order is melee-AoE-ranged). - New and exciting mez-protection mechanic: A character with intangibility powers shouldn't have to worry about freeing himself from any hold the enemy throws at him if he can see it coming, but he should at least be held for a few seconds until he reacts to it. I've therefore decided to split mez-protection into two powers, an inherent power that confers some mez protection, like Widows have, and a Self-Clear Mind-like click power on a very short recharge that lets you raise your mez protection higher for 30 seconds in case you do get held. This power would stack with itself if used multiple times during those 30 seconds, since a character that can become intangible should never ever be held if he really wants to regardleyy of magnitude (I'm looking at you, Ghost Widow). Essentially, you trade the ability of having a high-mag mez protection all the time for the ability of having high mag when you do need it plus the ability of having really really high mag in case it's necessary. - I haven't tried this, but I seem to recall someone saying that if both a critter and a player become intangible, they can interact with each other but not with tangible foes and critters. This may be wrong, but I hope it's not because it could make a very interesting mechanic possible for this set: the ability to choose your own fight by shifting phase together with an enemy of your choice who's dangerous to the team, dealing with him on your own in the other dimension, and then returning to the regular fight with all your friends. This would make solo'ing incredibly comfortable and would work great with single-target damage sets, which usually seem inferior to AoE melee sets. And now, without further ado, the powers: Tier 1: Fold Space - Toggle, self intangibility: You can't really be an intangibility specialits without phase-shifting at will. Tier 2: Not Quite There - Auto-power, moderate mez protection that is always on, +Perception (explained above) Tier 3: Incorporeal Brawler - Toggle, self +def melee, knockback protection: Paying attention to your foe lets you phase through any close-range attacks or attempts to trip you. Tier 4: Wrest Free - Click, self buff, more mez protection, short duration (30 seconds), very short recharge, stackable (explained above) Tier 5: Blink Out - Toggle, self +def AoE, defense debuff resistance: You can momentarily shift out of phase completely to avoid the burst of an explosion, immediatly returning to reality to continue your fight. Tier 6: Ghostly Touch - Toggle, PBAoE Taunt aura, smashing damage, self +damage, chance to fear enemies: Your limbs become partially intangible, dealing damage to the internal organs or circuitry of enemies as you move around in combat, making them either focus your attention on you or tremble in fear at the terrifying experience. Any attacks you perform will also deal added internal damage. Tier 7: Uncertainty Principle - Toggle, self +def ranged: If they can see you, they can't hit you; you learn how to make exactly those parts of you intangible that are in the trajectory line sof projectile attacks. Tier 8: Banish - Click power, enemy phase shift: You can bring an enemy of your choice to the dimension you shift to when you become intangible. If you then become intangible yourself, only that enemy and you will be able to fight each other. (explained above) Tier 9: Erm... haven't thought of one yet. What do you guys think? I wanted to leave at least one power open in case a glaring weakness comes up during discussion. Thanks a lot in advance for any comments! |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
"Intangibility" as a concept and "phase shift" as the game defines it are two different things and that is what I see as being the strength of this set concept. Unfortunately the desire to use phase shifting as the game has defined it so far seems to be causing a problem. The game defines both a positive and a negative effect from phase shifting for very good reasons. The idea in the game of being phase-shifted is not incremental; it's all or nothing. That means that if you're phase shifted you can't do anything to anyone who is not phased. The plus side is that you can't be hurt at all, the minus side is that you can't attack.
Intangibility as a concept, on the other hand, lets us move around those pluses and minuses in order to make an acceptable mix which plays to the concept while avoiding breaking the game in any way. One can be partially intangible.
Okay, now that I've repeated what everyone else has already said, I'll move on to actually making a point. Phase shift might be a neat thing in some ways, but it really isn't appropriate for a combat oriented AT defensive set. As has been mentioned, total defense is way over-powered. Hide is acceptable because it's not actually anywhere near total defense; defense is actually pretty limited for Hide but it makes you not get attacked in the first place. We can't really expect to hand that out to the other ATs because that would turn them into Stalkers after a fashion. Therefore, true Phase Shift should actually be left where it is: the level 20 power on the Concealment pool.
That doesn't mean, however, that some form of intangibility which mimics a limited form of Phase Shift shouldn't or couldn't be put into a set such as this. Let me try my hand at some modifications based on Steampunkette's version (which I think is the best up 'til now). When I list "As is" I mean exactly as the power of the same name as described by Steam.
1: Flicker -- Toggle/Self -- Minor +Def (All) -- By wrapping an extra-dimensional void around yourself, you cause yourself to "flicker" in and out of normal space which causes some attacks to pass through you without effect.
2: Immaterial -- As Is
3: Incorporeal Brawler -- Toggle/Self -- Moderate +Def (Melee), +Prot/Res (Knockback) -- Same concept as before, the reason for changing the effects is that I still think having two powers that do roughly the same thing makes one or the other a waste of endurance or makes them a waste of a power slot.
4: Shifter -- Click/Self (easily permed) -- +Mez/Status Prot/Res (Significant), +Def (Ranged) -- By partially stepping into the extra-dimensional void surrounding you, you are able to side-step those attacks which would limit your mobility or hinder your effectiveness.
5: Blink -- As Is
6: Ghost Touch -- If I understand Steampunkette's comment about the AoE Foe TP thing, she's suggesting something akin to a much smaller version of the Grav 'Troller's power. I think this should lose the chance to stun but gain a massive +Taunt. This power would have to be a high (!) endurance, long recharge power but I think the range could be a bit longer; 40' or 50' for instance. Oh, and also WANTWANTWANT NAO!
7: Uncertainty Principle (I absolutely LOVE this name) -- Toggle/PBAoE -- +Taunt, +Dmg (self)/-Dmg (target) -- Extending the Quantum irregularities caused by the extra-dimensional void you have wrapped around yourself, you skew the odds of combat in your favor and against your enemies (this power is similar in effect to the SD PBAoE taunt, I think)
8: Quantum Entanglement -- Scramble As Is except add a little end exchange as well. I just didn't like the name so much.
9: Eigen-State -- Click/PBAoE/Self -- High +Def (All/Self), High Mez/Status +Prot/Res (Self), -HP (Foe), +Stun (Foe), Standard "you're screwed" when duration is up -- You use your own body to cause a doorway to the extra-dimensional void to open. While this door is open you are nearly impossible to hit and any foes in your vacinity are buffeted by quantum irregularities which cause physical trauma and psychological stress. When the quantum state colapses, however, it takes most of you with it...
As you can see, there is no true phase shift in this and that's simply because I don't think that belongs in a melee defensive set. We've lost a small bit of the AoE defense. It's also going to be a bit more Endurance-heavy with the three toggles and a psuedo-perm click. It might be necessary to modify something to add in another auto instead. The problem is that the basic concept of the set makes auto powers problematic.
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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Exactly how useful is that, though? What are the benefits of doing this? To puff out your chest and boasts that you can 'tank' an AV forever?|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Anyway... You're still neglecting to argue against the fact that you could toggle it on Mid-Fight and LEAVE IT THERE. Permanently. Forever. Leaving an AV to stand there swinging at air for however long. No other powerset has the ability to ignore all damage and danger completely for a limitless (or nigh-limitless) period of time every 90 seconds. |
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| Also, Arguing that "It's ten seconds a Brute can't swing!" in the post directly after arguing that "Longer Duration is better" is kinda counter-intuitive... Is it worse or better for a brute? |
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| But okay. By all means: Design a solution to the perceived problem! Give me a different Tier-9 which works, Add in a Phasing power lower in the roster if you like. This goes for you, Leo and Monkey, too! Rather than tell me you don't like it, offer a solution that we can work on together. Forward movement of the discussion rather than lateral arguing. |
You kind of have to read the whole thread though as the idea was added to and changed by various posters (and the fact I didn't know much about the issues of phase when I first made the OP). The discussion seemed to be going toward the utility of being able to Phase, not it being overpowered.
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HOW can we make it better within the limits of how the game handles Intangibility?|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
My argument wasn't that longer duration is better but that the pool power does the same thing as this tier 9 but to a greater effect with no prime benefit to go with the set power. I believe there's a rule that pool powers are less effective than their equivalent powerset powers. And I don't mean that this is broken, just wrong.
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As for your "Phantom Aura" set I've got to ask why +Res would be useful when you're able to Phase Shift. Or, given the other powers in the set, why it isn't utterly broken to do so. In your set going Intangible added in a +Res to damage types. You gave the Defensive set the ability to shunt a single target into intangibility AND apply a -ToHit while using a defense based set. So you're taking on one foe while no others can hurt you (phase shifting the target, then turning on your own phase toggle) gaining a bonus to resist damage from that target AND lowering his ability to hit you?
As a Stalker set..? It's better than an AoE Placate. Heck, it -is- an AoE Placate -toggle-.
Phase Shift, as it stands, is a 30 second Turtle-shell. You lock yoursef in and noone can touch you. The "Downside" to this power is that you can't touch anyone else. Are you suggesting we make it better by ALLOWING the Intangibility defensive set grant the user the ability to hit people who AREN'T phased? Giving out bonuses wouldn't help, unless they involved Regen or Recovery (Hibernate). "I've got a +200% Damage boost! But I can't hit anyone..."
The alternative is making an OP single-target slaying ARMOR SET judging by your Phantom Aura set design. The later revamp didn't help the problem, either. Your set would allow a player to single out a foe, fight them with impunity as their allies helplessly threw themselves at your untouchable character, lather, rinse, and repeat. It's reward with absolutely -minimized- risk. The Defensive sets are designed to stand up to punishment from multiple targets in the higher levels, not to single one guy out to gut him like a fish while being completely immune to any form of retaliation from his allies.
Meanwhile you want to make the intangibility power in the set BETTER than standard phase shift? Again, I'm forced to question "How do we do this?"
-Rachel-
Gotta give this an /unsigned, especially given how the game handles intagibility. Other than actualy using that, it'd be a standard Defensive set with new animations. Which, really, isn't worth it IMO.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Granted, I can't think of many reasons, but at least one big one comes to mind. Simple Lord Recluse tanking/distracting on the STF.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Exactly how useful is that, though? What are the benefits of doing this? To puff out your chest and boasts that you can 'tank' an AV forever?
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
9: Intangible: Click long recharge Self intangible, AoE taunt effect. Makes you intangible for 10 seconds with a 7 second PBAoE taunt. If you're fighting foes who can also go intangible (Carnival Illusionists) you can fight them. No "Only Affecting Self" application.
-Rachel- |
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Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
As you can see, there is no true phase shift in this and that's simply because I don't think that belongs in a melee defensive set. We've lost a small bit of the AoE defense. It's also going to be a bit more Endurance-heavy with the three toggles and a psuedo-perm click. It might be necessary to modify something to add in another auto instead. The problem is that the basic concept of the set makes auto powers problematic.
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More likely than not, you're phasing a target to separate him from his allies because he's too dangerous to face normally. It's most likely a boss or elite boss or a defensive Lt. Just like any other control power, it's built to make the enemy easier to fight head on.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
As for your "Phantom Aura" set I've got to ask why +Res would be useful when you're able to Phase Shift. Or, given the other powers in the set, why it isn't utterly broken to do so. In your set going Intangible added in a +Res to damage types. You gave the Defensive set the ability to shunt a single target into intangibility AND apply a -ToHit while using a defense based set. So you're taking on one foe while no others can hurt you (phase shifting the target, then turning on your own phase toggle) gaining a bonus to resist damage from that target AND lowering his ability to hit you? |
Also, in a team environment, if you're grabbing a target and making him untouchable by the rest of your team except you, you'd better handle it yourself otherwise you're just slowing them down. Both the bonuses while phased and the debuff (probably only minor to moderate) will make that so.
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| Are you suggesting we make it better by ALLOWING the Intangibility defensive set grant the user the ability to hit people who AREN'T phased? |
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| The alternative is making an OP single-target slaying ARMOR SET judging by your Phantom Aura set design. The later revamp didn't help the problem, either. Your set would allow a player to single out a foe, fight them with impunity as their allies helplessly threw themselves at your untouchable character, lather, rinse, and repeat. It's reward with absolutely -minimized- risk. The Defensive sets are designed to stand up to punishment from multiple targets in the higher levels, not to single one guy out to gut him like a fish while being completely immune to any form of retaliation from his allies. |
Yes, you can single out an enemy, and beat him while his buddies are helpless to aid him (if they can't phase themselves) then rinse and repeat. But it will be slower than a petless MM soloing because most likely the foe intangible power will have a moderate to high recharge.
That said, I never claimed the set I proposed was great or balanced but it's unique. And those that have discussed it aren't really worried about the whole 'can't touch this' status because, on a melee character who will wipe out entire spawns in a matter of a 30sec window, the utility of it all is more than suspect.
Risk Versus Reward is how the game is balanced between ATs and Powersets. If one AT/Powerset can utterly bypass the majority of difficulties found in the game, this AT/powerset is overpowered and gets brought in line. I'd really appreciate it if you'd not use it as an ad hominem attack against myself and the devs.
The Intangibility Toggle + Intangibility Single-Target power would make MOST fights vastly easier. Hit the Boss/Accurate LT/EB/Whatever with the power. Then pop your toggle. Now kick his butt while his greatest resources (Minions and Lieutenants helping him to fight by virtue of the law of large numbers) are incapable of adding to the fight. Drop the toggle and mop up the non-threats remaining.
Yes. You can compare it to a Controller. But a Controller doesn't have the same HP total, defenses, or damaging attacks that even a Tanker does, much less a Scrapper or Stalker! -Balance-
And yes. I did read the whole thread. I'm asking you (repeatedly) to explain how we can make an Intangibility power more useful/effective/attractive than the pool power for a scrapper set to use -without- making it overpowered.
Your average Stalker, Scrapper, or Brute can usually drop a boss without -too- much problem. Tankers can do it once they've gotten some levels under their belt. Why? Because a Boss is a devastating foe, but not insurmountable. Put the same boss in with 4-6 allies and any of the ATs can get nervous (based on powerset, level, and damage type). You're effectively negating the 4-6 allies at most (if not all) times.
Proposing Unique things is fine and dandy wishful thinking. Expect people who enjoy the uniqueness of the thing in question to try and offer suggestions on how to Balance it. Those who don't have interest will simply point out it's broken/stupid/imbalanced/whatever and leave.
And Daemon? I meant "Only Affecting Self" in the sense of handling other Intangible beings (like Carnie Illusionists) Giving the person a 10 second long "You can't touch me while I whack you!" was never my intention.
-Rachel-
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It's because you have some skewed sense of balance and overpoweredness that hinges on intangibility being some kind of omnipotent god mode yet fail to measure exactly what utility such a mode costs. Of course you're going to ask repeatedly, because you want an answer that supports your opinion. Well I only have answers that defy your opinion. So it's probably pointless for me to press on any further.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
And yes. I did read the whole thread. I'm asking you (repeatedly) to explain how we can make an Intangibility power more useful/effective/attractive than the pool power for a scrapper set to use -without- making it overpowered.
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But have you contemplated the other side of the argument? The side where opinion says intangibility is a *burden* and phasing is *useless*? That such type powers can and will be skipped because their utility doesn't outweight the power slot? I have, and that's why I propose multi-layer utility for it. That's why shifting in my idea improves regen. It's why I proposed the ability to 'un-phase' mobs that phased themselves as a means to aid the team. And it's why phasing a single target to deal with it alone is a possibility. You can use one, all or none of the above and the set can still function.
But the primary reason for the suggestion is because such a mechanic is underutilized. No one likes phase because the few powers in the game that do it aren't very useful. If the mechanic were spread more throughout the game, with more enemies that phase themselves or others with more powers that accept intangibility enhancements is the time and place the suggested set would be useful in.
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Actually, you're both right and wrong.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Actually, Eiko, you're both right AND wrong!
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| Your comment that it wasn't a status effect with a duration isn't -quite- right. A Tanker's Taunt is +400% aggro for 15 seconds on the target taunted. It's not a flat status-effect, but it definitely has a duration. |
Hi, everyone!
I came up with an idea for an Intangibility-based powerset that would let us mimic the fighting styles of characters such as Shadow Cat or Miss Deep.
The logic behind this concept is based on:
- Being able to shift into another dimension is a pretty selfish ability, so the powerset should work better when solo than on teams. Taken to the logical extreme, every bullet you let shift through you should still be able to hit a teammate who's standing behind you. This last point doesn't sound like a fun mechanic to implement, but a solo focus should still be there.
- A controllable phase shift toggle belongs in this set like Improved Invisibility belongs in Illusion Control. I know the devs changed Phase Shift to a click with a long recharge for PvP reason, but is it that bad that we couldn't make an exception for one powerset?
- Characters who can become intangible actually spend most of their time NOT being intangible so that they can actually affect their foes and eventually defeat them. At the same time, attacks that you do shift through, shouldn't deal any damage at all (defense set instead of resistance set) regardless of what kind of attack it is: you're essentially *not there* to take any damage so you don't care if it's a fireball of a bullet (positional defense instead of typed defense). This makes the set similar to Super Reflexes, but with the opposite priorities: the power order for SR is ranged-AoE-melee, since it's easier to out-maneuver a projectile coming at you from a long distance than it is to dodge a large object trying to hit you in close quarters. For a phase-shifter the order should be the other way round: you're just going to stand there and let stuff go through you anyway, so what you need to do is mostly to detect incoming attacks, which is easier for big melee attacks than for bullets coming at you from all angles of the room (so the order is melee-AoE-ranged).
- New and exciting mez-protection mechanic: A character with intangibility powers shouldn't have to worry about freeing himself from any hold the enemy throws at him if he can see it coming, but he should at least be held for a few seconds until he reacts to it. I've therefore decided to split mez-protection into two powers, an inherent power that confers some mez protection, like Widows have, and a Self-Clear Mind-like click power on a very short recharge that lets you raise your mez protection higher for 30 seconds in case you do get held. This power would stack with itself if used multiple times during those 30 seconds, since a character that can become intangible should never ever be held if he really wants to regardleyy of magnitude (I'm looking at you, Ghost Widow). Essentially, you trade the ability of having a high-mag mez protection all the time for the ability of having high mag when you do need it plus the ability of having really really high mag in case it's necessary.
- I haven't tried this, but I seem to recall someone saying that if both a critter and a player become intangible, they can interact with each other but not with tangible foes and critters. This may be wrong, but I hope it's not because it could make a very interesting mechanic possible for this set: the ability to choose your own fight by shifting phase together with an enemy of your choice who's dangerous to the team, dealing with him on your own in the other dimension, and then returning to the regular fight with all your friends. This would make solo'ing incredibly comfortable and would work great with single-target damage sets, which usually seem inferior to AoE melee sets.
And now, without further ado, the powers:
Tier 1: Fold Space - Toggle, self intangibility: You can't really be an intangibility specialits without phase-shifting at will.
Tier 2: Not Quite There - Auto-power, moderate mez protection that is always on, +Perception (explained above)
Tier 3: Incorporeal Brawler - Toggle, self +def melee, knockback protection: Paying attention to your foe lets you phase through any close-range attacks or attempts to trip you.
Tier 4: Wrest Free - Click, self buff, more mez protection, short duration (30 seconds), very short recharge, stackable (explained above)
Tier 5: Blink Out - Toggle, self +def AoE, defense debuff resistance: You can momentarily shift out of phase completely to avoid the burst of an explosion, immediatly returning to reality to continue your fight.
Tier 6: Ghostly Touch - Toggle, PBAoE Taunt aura, smashing damage, self +damage, chance to fear enemies: Your limbs become partially intangible, dealing damage to the internal organs or circuitry of enemies as you move around in combat, making them either focus your attention on you or tremble in fear at the terrifying experience. Any attacks you perform will also deal added internal damage.
Tier 7: Uncertainty Principle - Toggle, self +def ranged: If they can see you, they can't hit you; you learn how to make exactly those parts of you intangible that are in the trajectory line sof projectile attacks.
Tier 8: Banish - Click power, enemy phase shift: You can bring an enemy of your choice to the dimension you shift to when you become intangible. If you then become intangible yourself, only that enemy and you will be able to fight each other. (explained above)
Tier 9: Erm... haven't thought of one yet. What do you guys think? I wanted to leave at least one power open in case a glaring weakness comes up during discussion.
Thanks a lot in advance for any comments!