Demystifying Recharge Penalties
I recommend sending a PM to a mod to get this moved to the Guide section, actually
(But it's good info!)
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
EDIT TO SAY: Great, clear, accurate guide. So of course I want to tweak it, because that is my nature.
"-Recharge affects players worse than enemies.
This is only partially a myth. While -Recharge can wreck a player, it can also wreck enemies, because enemies have so many fewer powers to fall back on when their recharge drops. The reason it might appear otherwise is most players experience groups of enemies instead of individuals. The overall mechanics work the same for both players and enemies."
There's a couple of things going on aside from just the bolded part. I'm a little muzzy, I'm not going to present it clearly.
1) You always notice things happening to yourself more clearly. Especially if your beautiful attack chain has been vandalized.
2) Players win something like 95% (or more) of all fights. If you win only 90% of the fights, you're probably in permadebt. So if there's an effect that makes you win 50% of the fights you would have lost, you're going from 95% to 97.5% and you won't notice that much. If there's an effect that makes you lose, not 50% but 10%, of the fights you would have won, you're getting killed THREE TIMES AS MUCH.
3) the "Paragon Protector" effect. Powers that are not very good for PC's (the old Moment of Glory) can seem much, much better for critters because, basically, of point 2.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Thats a great explanation, Tex.
I didn't realise how effective -Recharge was until I read this.
Trickshooter approves this message!
Although, I will say that -Recharge powers don't generally change when the effect comes from a psuedopet, but otherwise they're usually different, as -Recharge will (usually) use the Ranged Slow modifiers.
For example, from your table:
Snow Storm (both Storm and Cold versions) for Defenders and Controllers is -62.5% as it uses the Ranged Slow mod, which they have a -1.25 (or -0.125, I forget right now) modifier for, but the MM and Corruptor versions are -50% as their Ranged Slow modifier is -1.0 (or -0.10).
Although, I will say that -Recharge powers don't generally change when the effect comes from a psuedopet, but otherwise they're usually different, as -Recharge will (usually) use the Ranged Slow modifiers.
For example, from your table: Snow Storm (both Storm and Cold versions) for Defenders and Controllers is -62.5% as it uses the Ranged Slow mod, which they have a -1.25 (or -0.125, I forget right now) modifier for, but the MM and Corruptor versions are -50% as their Ranged Slow modifier is -1.0 (or -0.10). |
I updated the table, and corrected some of the info in the original version. Notably, numbers for Trick Arrow and Poison, which were accidentally calculated as +Recharge instead of -Recharge. Thank you for all your replies.
Nice guide. The other thing you might want to add in to the purple patch information is a note about AV resistance.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Archvillain
Since this is stacked on top of the purple patch AVs are highly resistance to -recharge.
Nice guide. The other thing you might want to add in to the purple patch information is a note about AV resistance.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Archvillain Since this is stacked on top of the purple patch AVs are highly resistance to -recharge. |
Thanks for the info.
Cold Domination and Storm might be able to pull it off with -Recharge in the secondary or primary powerset. Everyone else pretty much shouldnt even bother against AVs.
Thanks for the info. |
(Of course, Ice Control is also even better against single targets than you make it look, and it already looks pretty good: Chilblain and Block of Ice are also self-stacking single target -rech you can cram in between all the others if you're so inclined.)
Then there's Siphon Speed, which is a 20% irresistible recharge debuff. So it will plow right through the Purple Patch and AV resistances.
[edit: Very well written, btw. Kudos!]
it does pretty much show that only powersets that can really hammer -Recharge should even bother with it against an AV. Ice and Psi sets should step to the front of the line. Cold Domination and Storm might be able to pull it off with -Recharge in the secondary or primary powerset. Everyone else pretty much shouldnt even bother against AVs.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Something to note with Cold Domination: you left Infrigidate (and single-target powers in general) off your table, and it's a -87.5% that's perma with the default slot (for controllers, at least). As a result CD is somewhat better against AVs than the table makes it look.
(Of course, Ice Control is also even better against single targets than you make it look, and it already looks pretty good: Chilblain and Block of Ice are also self-stacking single target -rech you can cram in between all the others if you're so inclined.) |
You're right. It's not that I want to portray the sets at worse than AVs than they are. It's that my original focus was on AOEs, and I didn't want to spend the six hours it took to type up another table. I just grabbed the source data on the AoEs I already had and applied the AV formula. I need to retract my off the cuff comment about Cold Dom though. Sleet + Infrigidate + Snow Storm + Heat Loss is pretty significant, even if Heat Loss's huge debuff is only up for 30 seconds at a time.
Then there's Siphon Speed, which is a 20% irresistible recharge debuff. So it will plow right through the Purple Patch and AV resistances.
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Good post. Suspected a few of these things regarding regarding caps and degradation against higher level spawns, it's nice to see concrete confermation.
You are however missing /poison's Neurotoxic Breath for MMs from your charts. It's a 30 degree cone, 60 feet long, 65% slow (with a chance to hold, although that's irrelivent for these charts). It has a 20 second duration and 30 second base recharge.
That...was a Herocon 09 exclusive easter egg. The powerset will not have doves associated with it.
Namely because you guys would want to color tint the damn doves, or make them hawks/ravens/flying sharks/etc and that's just a headache I do...not...want...to deal with. |
Then there's Siphon Speed
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The move occurred some time in mid-late February, though no announcement was made in the Titan forums until March 11
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I hear a lot of strange things about Recharge Penalties (hereafter described as "-Recharge.") I have a bunch of characters with this secondary effect, and have spent some time looking at how it works, so I thought I'd take a break to explain the overall implications of the effect to people who are still confused by it. This isn't a guide so much as a quick heads up, so I'm posting it here instead of the guides section.
The Master Formula
The master formula for -Recharge is simple enough. Quoting directly from ParagonWiki, it's just:
(It has to be set up this way. Otherwise, +100% Recharge would cause a power to recharge instantly, and -100% Recharge would cause it to never recharge.)
The debuffs mentioned in the formula can be read straight out of a power's description. The Blaster version of Ice Bolt, for example, provides -20% Recharge per application. To actually interpret that number, it's helpful to change it from a percentage to a multiplier. You can do that by simply plugging values it into the formula and use 1 as the BaseRechargeTime.
Recharge Caps
The maximum possible -Recharge achievable on an enemy is -75%. At this value, all powers take four times as long to Recharge.
The Purple Patch
Your next question might be, if -Recharge is capped at -75%, why do some powers, such as the Controller version of Shiver, have base values greater than 75%? The answer to this is called the "purple patch," so called because it is a piece of code introduced via a patch to the game some time ago, intended specifically to make higher level (i.e. "purple") enemies more difficult to defeat by adding, among other things, debuff resistance. The purple patch reduces -Recharge (and all other resistable things) as follows:
The Sustainability Problem
It's not enough to calculate the effectiveness of -Recharge by looking at the -Recharge values by themselves. You also have to know how long the -Recharge effect will be in place. A very high value, low duration -Recharge effect can actually have less overall effect on the enemy than a medium value, long duration one. That's because -Recharge penalties apply continuously; every server tick the enemy spends under a penalty counts against it.
In other words, flooring an enemy's recharge for 10 seconds increases the enemies recharge time only during those ten seconds. Consider a power with a base recharge time of 15 seconds. If you floored an enemy's recharge (ideally at the exact moment the power was expended), what would happen is the enemy's recharge rate would be reduced by x4 for the first ten seconds, but then return to normal. The ten seconds the enemy spent under the penalty would count as if they were really about 2.5 seconds of recharge time (75% of base). The power would take about 22 seconds to recharge in total. Contrast this with the 60 seconds it would take to recharge if you floored recharge on the enemy and kept it floored for all 60 seconds of the (penalized) recharge time.
The lesson in this? You should aim not only to reduce the enemy's recharge as much as possible, but to keep it there.
The Large Value Effect
Notice that -Recharge becomes much more effective as it approaches the -75% cap. If going after -Recharge, its worth it to try to get as close to the cap as possible for maximum effectiveness. The last few points of -Recharge count much more than the initial points. It takes -50% Recharge to move the multiplier from x1 to x2, but only 8 points make the difference between x3 and x4.
What it Really Means
Another point to understand is that -Recharge only has meaning on powers that have been expended. It does not stop from using a power that is currently completely recharged. That tends to mean that characters who rely on -Recharge can have trouble dealing with an alpha strike, but things go smoothly after the opening seconds of a fight. Two ways to get around this are to combine -Recharge with good defense or -ToHit to avoid the alpha, or using a power like Arctic Air to confuse enemies into hitting each other.
The Multiple Power Problem
When trying to quantify how much effect -Recharge really has, one open question is how many powers the enemy has available. An enemy with very few powers will tend to suffer more than an enemy with several powers to pick from. It isn't just the overall power count that matters, either. An enemy with a selection of melee powers and one or two ranged powers might suffer more than an enemy with 3 or 4 ranged powers only, if you can stay out of melee. There is a distinct possibility this could bork some enemy AI, although I have never tested for it.
What it boils down to is that -Recharge is good for reducing the rate at which enemies get to use their single best powers. Many enemies will not be completely prevented from attacking; they will, however, be prevented from using their best powers as frequently. This includes powers that are not attacks, like Tsoo Sorcerors trying to use heals and enemies trying to chain holds and sleeps.
The Mezz Problem
One vexing dilemma for -Recharge is that mezzed enemies continue to recharge even while held. Also, if the fight opens with a hold or stun, the enemies have not yet expended any of their powers yet, and -Recharge doesn't have any effect. This can result in a surprise barrage of damage once the enemies break the mezz.
On the other hand, -Recharge isn't subject to boss defenses, big bubbles, or Clear Mind type powers, and resistance to -Recharge in the field is rare.
Overall, -Recharge should be seen as a kind of insurance policy. It defines the maximum possible rate an enemy can re-use its best powers. It does not "lock out" an enemy like a mezz does, but operates on a totally different level, adding an extra layer of security.
Myths About -Recharge
Several myths abound about -Recharge. I've addressed a few of the most prevalent below.
You can debuff an enemy's Recharge to the point that powers never recharge.
The maximum -Recharge debuff is -75%. This results in all powers recharging x4 slower.
-Recharge is never as useful as other secondary effects.
It depends. It's not lockdown, but it works regardless of enemy rank (e.g. against bosses) and is rarely resisted.
-Recharge reduces animation speed.
No. In some other games Ice powers have this effect, but in CoX, only the recharge rate is affected, not animation times. -Recharge is frequently paired with slow powers that slow run speed, but powers always animate at the same rate.
-Recharge affects players worse than enemies.
This is only partially a myth. While -Recharge can wreck a player, it can also wreck enemies, because enemies have so many fewer powers to fall back on when their recharge drops. The reason it might appear otherwise is most players experience groups of enemies instead of individuals. The overall mechanics work the same for both players and enemies.
-Recharge is always a good reason to pick a power.
Again it depends. The amount of -Recharge in some power sets (e.g. Trick Arrow) is so small that it has very little effect without something to stack it with. -Recharge is a good thing to have if you can reliably hit around -50% or greater (that is, x2), with -75% always the goal. Less than -50% will not contribute much.
If enemies are still attacking after I use -Recharge, it means -Recharge doesn't affect them much.
Not necessarily. What -Recharge does is prevent them from using their best powers as often as they'd like. The enemy will often have at least 3 to 5 powers total, and may use its other powers, but it can't cycle back to the powers you fear most as quickly. The other possibility is that you haven't debuffed them as much as you think you have. See the chart below showing the effects of the Purple Patch on various powers. Note that not a single AoE power can increase the Recharge of a group of +4 enemies by up to twice the normal recharge time. Several sets can do it (most notably Ice Control) by stacking powers, however.
Chart of -Recharge Powers Showing Raw Percentages and Resulting Multipliers
The chart below demonstrates Recharge rates applied by some ATs to enemies of various levels.
[EDIT: I recently discovered that both Recharge and duration vary by AT. The chart below shows some samples. You should look up the numbers for your own AT to figure out your actual values.]
Archvillains
In addition to the normal resistance enemies receive for being higher level than you, Archvillain enemies receive a base resistance that stacks on top of the purple patch. The amount of resistance an AV receives varies with its level, but AVs between level 50 and 54 resist about 85% to 87% of your debuffs. This is after applying the purple patch, so if you are level 50 fighting a level 54 AV, your efforts are penalized by 48% (for a +4 enemy) and then again for an 87% (from AV resistance). This wittles down even the strongest -Recharge powers considerably.
The table below demonstrates the effects of selected powersets against AVs of various levels. Note that even Ice Control struggles to substantially affect the recharge of AVs. Of course, against an AV, AoE powers matter less and you can rely on your single target abilities to stack better numbers. The table assumes the player is level 50. Also note that the table only shows AoE powers, and is for demonstration purposes only. In real life, you would be using single target powers instead--the table merely shows these powers because it is what I had time to put together, based on info from the previous table.
More info about AV resistance can be found here: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Archvillain
[EDIT: I found a bug with the numbers below that I don't have time to fix at the moment. Powers that have a base -Recharge greater than the 75% cap are shown below as if they were set to 75%. This mostly effects Ice Control's Shiver and Cold Domination's Heat Loss, which actually have better numbers.]
Questions? Concerns? Hit me up. I won't guarantee this is perfect, but it's a start.