Quote:
Even with fully slotted attacks at BEST gravity well will oneshot a minion, but I find myself two and three shotting even fully slotted against some groups. This is not necessarily an under-slotting issue.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
With underslotted attacks, nothing dies fast. My best hope is melee-hold plus shadow blast will sometimes kill a minion. Other than that I'm looking at 3 or 4 hits--not attacks, hits. Underslotted attacks means less than 95% accuracy. Typically 75% accuracy, but sometimes as low as 32% depending on the enemy and any debuffs on me. |
Quote:
| Bets? I've got a Broadsword/Regen I've been playing for the better part of two years. She is sitting on 43 hp/second base regen, and tops out at 159 with both dull pain and IH going at once. Almost perma dull pain levels of recharge. I am lucky to get more than 1 enemy in my cone (and swipe has a wide cone), and when I die (not if, when) I have an average of 3 click powers available and waiting to be used, including any or all of instant heal, dull pain, reconstruction, eye of the magus, and moment of glory. And the horror stories of my mastermind failures don't bear repeating. If I can't get the basics down (lining up cones and remembering to heal when I'm taking damage) after two years, I'm willing to bet that two more aren't going to help either. =) I do try. I'm just not very good at this game. But I have fun and that's all that matters. |
------
Snixnix - Humanform Warshade
Various others.
@debtlover
Ta restate the previous comments, I don't think you're seein' how GOOD Gravitic Emanation can be, Gavin.
I've taken almost a full year off, but even back then I would never consider Human Warshades viable without it. It's the only one reliable power you have that will let you deal with two or more mezzing Lts. effectively. Gravity Well will only take out one.
Not to mention, if you have Gravitic Emanation, you can STACK the mag 3 Stun with the mag 2 Stun off Inky Aspect to actually do a good job of locking down a Boss critter. It's still dangerous if they wander away on ya, but you can take a +2 Boss out of the fight for a good 12 seconds or so.
Whatever build this is you've got, I would really consider changing it NOW for something a little more debt friendly. Dying repeatedly's no fun, and is the main reason I've given up on Human Warshades in the past. They keep suckering me back with all these Kheldian changes though... They're actually pretty damn viable now. Lethal, even, if you drop enough for the purple IO sets.
P.S.!! Quasar is easily the BEST looking nuke power in the game. The Peacebringer version is weak sauce compared to the funkadelic fury that is the max purple haze power. I'd get it for stylistic reasons alone. It makes everyone else who sees it jealous.
P.P.S. Here's a super cheap (in comparison to a rare IO or purple IO heavy build) that I'm working towards. Cheap, yet effective. If you detest Orbiting Death, you can easily dump it for Gravimetric Snare or Ebon Eye. I personally wade in and rot stuff em masse after perma-stunning the crap out of it.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.703
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Science Warshade
Primary Power Set: Umbral Blast
Secondary Power Set: Umbral Aura
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Medicine
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Shadow Bolt -- Ruin-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(A), Ruin-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(3), Ruin-Dmg/Rchg:40(3), Ruin-Acc/Dmg:40(9), Mael'Fry-Dmg/Rchg:35(11), Mael'Fry-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(17)
Level 1: Absorption -- S'fstPrt-ResKB:30(A)
Level 2: Gravity Shield -- TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx:50(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42), TtmC'tng-ResDam:50(43)
Level 4: Orbiting Death -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(A), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx:50(5), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(5), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(25), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg:50(31), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx:50(31)
Level 6: Shadow Blast -- Ruin-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(A), Ruin-Acc/Dmg:40(7), Ruin-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(7), Ruin-Dmg/Rchg:40(9), Mael'Fry-Dmg/Rchg:35(11), Mael'Fry-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(17)
Level 8: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 10: Penumbral Shield -- TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx:50(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43), TtmC'tng-ResDam:50(43)
Level 12: Sunless Mire -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg:50(13), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg:50(13), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg:50(15), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(15), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx:50(45)
Level 14: Shadow Cloak -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:50(A)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I:50(A)
Level 18: Gravity Well -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(19), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(19), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(21), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(21), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(23)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I:50(A), EndMod-I:50(23), EndMod-I:50(25)
Level 22: Stygian Circle -- Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(46), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(46), Efficacy-EndMod:50(46), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc:50(48), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg:50(48)
Level 24: Twilight Shield -- TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx:50(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45), TtmC'tng-ResDam:50(45)
Level 26: Gravitic Emanation -- Stgr-Acc/Stun/Rchg:30(A), Stgr-Acc/Rchg:30(27), Stgr-Acc/EndRdx:30(27), Stgr-EndRdx/Stun:30(29), Stgr-Stun/Rng:30(29), Rope-Acc/Stun/Rchg:50(31)
Level 28: Inky Aspect -- Stgr-Acc/Stun/Rchg:30(A), Stgr-Acc/EndRdx:30(48), Stgr-Acc/Rchg:30(50), Stgr-EndRdx/Stun:30(50), Stgr-Stun/Rng:30(50)
Level 30: Essence Drain -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(34), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(36), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(36), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(36), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(37)
Level 32: Dark Extraction -- ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg:50(33), ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg:50(33), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg:50(33), Dmg-I:50(34), RechRdx-I:50(34)
Level 35: Quasar -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg:50(37), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg:50(37), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg:50(40), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx:50(42)
Level 38: Eclipse -- Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(A), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg:50(39), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(39), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc:50(39), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:50(40), Efficacy-EndMod:50(40)
Level 41: Stygian Return -- Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(A)
Level 44: Stimulant -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 47: Aid Self -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(A)
Level 49: Resuscitate -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:50(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 1: Dark Sustenance
Level 1: Ninja Run -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Shadow Recall -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
------------
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
- 8% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 8% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 8% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 8% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 8% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 8% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 8% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 8% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 3.44% Defense(Fire)
- 3.44% Defense(Cold)
- 2.5% Defense(Energy)
- 2.5% Defense(Negative)
- 1.25% Defense(Ranged)
- 3.13% Defense(AoE)
- 2% Enhancement(Stun)
- 14% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 31.3% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 108.4 HP (10.1%) HitPoints
- Knockback (Mag -4)
- Knockup (Mag -4)
- MezResist(Confused) 2.5%
- MezResist(Held) 2.5%
- MezResist(Immobilize) 6.9%
- MezResist(Sleep) 14.1%
- MezResist(Stun) 4.15%
- MezResist(Terrorized) 5.8%
- 5% (0.08 End/sec) Recovery
- 20% (0.89 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 2.84% Resistance(Fire)
- 2.84% Resistance(Cold)
- 10% RunSpeed
- 2% XPDebtProtection
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
And almost fergots: If the only reason you're not using any of the forms is because it's too tricky, then lemme help a brother out!
You need the three following keybinds to make em cake to run.
/bind numpad1 "powexec_toggle_off Dark Nova$$powexec_toggle_off$$Black Dwarf$$powexec_toggle_on Gravity Shield$$goto_tray 1"
/bind numpad2 "powexec_toggleon Dark Nova$$goto_tray 4"
/bind numpad3 "powexec_toggleon Black Dwarf$$goto_tray 5"
Now, the only tricky bit is hitting "1" on your number pad for Human, "2" to turn into Nova, and "3" to go Dwarfing. It's really that easy! The trays referred to in the binds are your power trays, so just put Human powers in Tray 1, 2, or 3; Nova stuff in Tray 4; and Dwarf stuff in Tray 5. Coding to goto_tray whatever automatically shifts the active tray to what form you're in. i.e. You shift into Nova form AND it shifts to your Nova attack tray when you hit number pad "2".
This takes about 10 minutes tops to set up ingame, and it makes running a forms Kheldian so much easier. It's slightly technical, far's the coding goes, which is why I see a lot of newer Kheldian folks having serious problems with forms. You really need to understand binding to get a Kheldian to work right.
Not cuz they're epic, but because they've enough powers to be a serious headache without smart binds.
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
Quote:
I do something similar.|
Originally Posted by BloodPython
You need the three following keybinds to make em cake to run.
|
/bind q "powexectoggleon dark nova$$gototray8"
/bind e "powexectoggleon black dwarf$$gototray9"
/bind alt+q "powexectoggleoff dark nova$$powexectoggleoff black dwarf$$gototray 1"
Since my hand is already on WASD, it made sense to have Q and E be my forms, and hitting alt+Q wasn't hard.
Then I added some other fun binds.
/bind alt+e "powexectoggleoff dark nova$$powexectoggleoff black dwarf$$gototray 1$$powexecname sunless mire"
With that, I drop whatever form I'm in and do a sunless mire. Booh-yah!
/bind v "powexectoggleoff dark nova$$powexectoggleoff black dwarf$$gototray 1$$powexecname stygian circle"
V is my usual button for healing powers, so this one drops whatever form I'm in and sucks the life out of any corpse I can find.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Heh, I see a dearth of Khelds around right now, but I've a hunch that only a few of them are going to join us old diehards in the Kheldian forums. They're probly the nastiest learning curve in the game, as far as learning binds and keystone powers goes.
I just wish they'd change it so Unchain Essence could auto-target a dead critter for you, much like Extract Essence does.
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
Quote:
using this bind might help you target the nearest corpse more easily.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
try to click unchain essense, fail as it selects the next enemy instead, use dark extraction to reselect the corpse THEN unchain essence (this happens at least 3 out of 4 times I try to use this power)
|
bind z "unselect$$target_custom_near enemy defeated"
Quote:
Never meant it to be insulting. It took me hundreds of hours to learn how to play the at. Hell I'm still learning how to play it.
|
Originally Posted by Square_One
*Oh, and Khelds (Warshades in particular) play radically different than any other AT, especially the more static melee AT's like scrappers. And it takes a bit to learn to reign in on them - my tactics and strategies seemed to change with every new power I got. So don't take Debt's comment too badly.
|
------
Snixnix - Humanform Warshade
Various others.
@debtlover
Quote:
Not trying to pick on you debt but just taking your post as an example, what's with this idea that Kheldians are somehow rocket science?|
Originally Posted by Debtlover
Never meant it to be insulting. It took me hundreds of hours to learn how to play the at. Hell I'm still learning how to play it.
|
More complex than like, a Scrapper, Blaster or Tanker, sure.
I'm just not seeing how playing a Kheld effectively is somehow orders of magnitude more complex and demanding than doing so with any other non-2-dimensional AT (Corrs, Trollers, Defenders, Doms).
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
It's not a huge increase, although there's a certain amount of finesse required to know when it's best to sit in human/Nova form and blast stuff, and when it's best to turn into a Dwarf and grab dudes.
|
Originally Posted by Silas
I'm just not seeing how playing a Kheld effectively is somehow orders of magnitude more complex and demanding than doing so with any other non-2-dimensional AT (Corrs, Trollers, Defenders, Doms).
|
Quote:
The dynamic of living and dead enemies both playing a role in any given battle adds more strategic thinking to each fight. Khelds are a strategic archetype, changing roles based on team makeup, and build plays a huge role in how adaptave or how specialized you are in any given role.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Not trying to pick on you debt but just taking your post as an example, what's with this idea that Kheldians are somehow rocket science?
More complex than like, a Scrapper, Blaster or Tanker, sure. I'm just not seeing how playing a Kheld effectively is somehow orders of magnitude more complex and demanding than doing so with any other non-2-dimensional AT (Corrs, Trollers, Defenders, Doms). |
IMHO they are more like masterminds on the level of strategic play more than corrs, trollers, defenders, or doms.
There is a learning curve on all ATs yes. Warshade's learning curve just happens to be a bit steeper than most.
again anything posted should be prefaced with IMHO :P
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Snixnix - Humanform Warshade
Various others.
@debtlover
It is amazingly comforting to me to read a thread for once that is talking about the strengths of a human form. All good advice here...
Please continue. 
"Alien"
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
|
76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Knowing the team makeup and watching how it runs at first is a great way to figure out what role you should fill. I recently did a respec for my PB and she is now humanform only. I have been playing her that way since about level 25 and had only taken Nova.
Tonight I was on a team that was pretty well balanced. Having a really strong melee presence was a life saver a couple of times when groups broke away from the Tank and headed for the blasters. I still have to slot some IO sets on the toon but with just some standard IOs and SOs, she is doing pretty well.
I am still not used to having Light form and need to get used to using that a bit more.
Quote:
I found this so you can use it for an idea on how to build an all human form PB. Just use the slotting and replace with cheaper IO's that will give you the numbers that you are looking for on your set bonuses.
|
Originally Posted by Big_Soto
My upgraded all human build for PvP...
 |
Quote:
Breakfrees handle that pretty well, so does the immobilize on one and walking around a corner.|
Originally Posted by BloodPython
Ta restate the previous comments, I don't think you're seein' how GOOD Gravitic Emanation can be, Gavin.
I've taken almost a full year off, but even back then I would never consider Human Warshades viable without it. It's the only one reliable power you have that will let you deal with two or more mezzing Lts. effectively. Gravity Well will only take out one. |
Quote:
| Whatever build this is you've got, I would really consider changing it NOW for something a little more debt friendly. Dying repeatedly's no fun, and is the main reason I've given up on Human Warshades in the past. They keep suckering me back with all these Kheldian changes though... They're actually pretty damn viable now. Lethal, even, if you drop enough for the purple IO sets. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BloodPython
And almost fergots: If the only reason you're not using any of the forms is because it's too tricky, then lemme help a brother out!
You need the three following keybinds to make em cake to run. |
1. Something is bugged on my game and binds don't work for me. Also, I use Q and E for turning. Alt- and Shift- not convenient at all. I have to look at the keyboard to find them. I much prefer keeping buttons handy on my tray near where my mouse pointer rests.
2. It's not just the triggering them that is the problem. I can't USE the forms. In nova I can't move. I as a player am not skilled enough to maneuver a flying character indoors. I get stuck on the floor or in a corner or looking at the ceiling. Nova is 100% useless to me. I can usually do ok with hover because it is so slow. Nova's actually move pretty quick even at low level. As a dwarf I just can't react fast enough. I'm trying another one, but in general I am stuck in the wrong place looking the wrong way. Then I go human and maneuver around and get squished while re-toggling. All in all the forms are not fluid. they're a real PITA.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
Forms. Seriously confusing (I still don't understand how they relate to powers and sets with 100% clarity). VERY hard to use effectively. VERY easy to use stupidly. Yes, they are powerful when used well. It's that "used well" bit.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Not trying to pick on you debt but just taking your post as an example, what's with this idea that Kheldians are somehow rocket science?
More complex than like, a Scrapper, Blaster or Tanker, sure. I'm just not seeing how playing a Kheld effectively is somehow orders of magnitude more complex and demanding than doing so with any other non-2-dimensional AT (Corrs, Trollers, Defenders, Doms). |
No focus. Figuring out what to do with a blaster is easy. You shoot things in the face until they die. Scrapper? Hit them in the face until they die. Controller? Paralyze them and slowly plink away at them until they die. Defender? Put shields on your teammates and drink soda while watching them hit things in the face until it dies. Kheld? Errr everything above and more depending on your choice and build.
Weaker Powers. Same exact power on a kheld and on anyone else, the kheld version does less damage, costs more endurance and/or is missing something. Compare Orbiting Death to any other damage aura. Compare the melee hold to the dark melee version. Compare the warshade and dark melee siphon life. Energy blast's attacks vs the peacebringer versions? Khelds make up for it with options. Options require information in order to make an informed and therefore wise decision. Speaking as one incapable of making a decent build, that's not as easy as some of you think.
Difficulty Slotting. Too many powers, too few slots. This means khelds require a higher degree of skill on the part of the build-designer than other characters. Not an issue for many of you on the forum. Big problem for the community as a whole.
Control/Maneuvering difficultes. The activation times on the shapeshifting as well as the multiple different modes of travel get's really confusing. Run, now fly, now run again, quick teleport! NOOO don't fly again teleport arrgh! splat. Oh sure if you know what you're doing it's powerful and flexible. If you have crappy reflexes it is a serious pain.
Mez weakness. Act like a melee character but with no mez resist unless yo go dwarf. Learnt he hard way dwarf doesn't break mez it gives you protection. Sleeep hah Dwarf! Undwarf... still sleeping, what the hell? Splat!
Kheldians are like Masterminds. You can use them and they are powerful. But using them well is hard. Any idiot can tell a mastermind's pets to go on aggressive and clear things out. Actually controlling them is difficult. Similarly, any idiot can blast things. But using all the tools a kheld comes with is difficult. Building one to not gimp critical powers with starved slots is difficult. Figuring out when to be in what form is difficult. Juggling multiple modes of travel is difficult.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
What you describe is what makes me love Kheldians. The fact it's not trivialy easy for everyone.
Not all things in the game need to be made for and enjoyed by everyone. I personaly hate Brutes and SoA's for the opposite reason you have problems with Kheldians, their simply built to be trivial to play well.
I enjoy having to make choices and in some cases sacrifices to make my WS play well.
I simply do not "get" the percieved slot crunch people seem to find on Triformed builds. The first thing I tell people when they ask about slotting advice on WS's or Khelds in general is to dismiss the notion that powers need to be 5 or 6 slotted to be "good".
People who primarily play the "regular" AT's have simply become spoiled by having plenty of slots to "at least" 5 slot every power they have in their primary and secondary and dont feel any power is done until that point.
With IO's, and sets specificly, it is nearly trivialy easy to get what you need out of a power in 4 slots or less, and most of the time it is possible to have all relivant powers (non-duplicated) in a Triform build slotted as well (under 8% difference in all aspects) as a fully 6 slotted Human form build.
Is it easy? No.
Is it for everyone? No.
But it is fun for the segment of the population who enjoys tinkering and learning something difficult to pull off.
...Capt. Wildstar
With regards to binds/macros not working for you: for whatever reason, the game sees copy/pasted double quotes (") as two single quotes (''), which breaks the bind/macro...hmmm...it's possible I have that backwards BUT the point is, you might have to type the bind/macro, not copy/paste it.
I cannot overstate the importance of using either a bind or macro to manage shifting forms (ie. changing your default power tray so that the powers for whatever form you're in are on the default tray). Without them, I can see the forms being unplayable. I know before the improvements in i13, it caused several players I know personally to not play kheldians at all (human-only was...less viable back then).
Quote:
I'm familiar with that particular bug. Doesn't seem to be what's hitting me. I can say this, on a scrapper I was helping some friends get the Banished Pantheon spirit badge in Dark astoria. They tossed into chat a macro to create a button that says "target" and when you click it it targets the nearest ______ (in this case pre-filled to spirit). 6 other people copy/pasted that into their chat log and it worked. I copy pasted it, got the button clicky clicky clicky... nothing happens. Tried typing them, tried pasting them doesn't work.|
Originally Posted by Guardien
With regards to binds/macros not working for you: for whatever reason, the game sees copy/pasted double quotes (") as two single quotes (''), which breaks the bind/macro...hmmm...it's possible I have that backwards
BUT the point is, you might have to type the bind/macro, not copy/paste it.I cannot overstate the importance of using either a bind or macro to manage shifting forms (ie. changing your default power tray so that the powers for whatever form you're in are on the default tray). Without them, I can see the forms being unplayable. I know before the improvements in i13, it caused several players I know personally to not play kheldians at all (human-only was...less viable back then). |
If I go into my masterminds and edit the word "aggressive" to "defensive" in their default macros, they stop working. Forever. Or at least the two I tried it on months and months ago still don't work. No other change, and I know I didn't misspell it or remove a critical bit of punctuation, etc.
I have one almost functioning bind. On my warshade if I shift-left click she can teleport. I don't mess with that because it's all I got. =)
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
I've been ignoring this thread for quite some time (The title didn't grab my interest) but this point needs contending.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
2. It's not just the triggering them that is the problem. I can't USE the forms. In nova I can't move. I as a player am not skilled enough to maneuver a flying character indoors. I get stuck on the floor or in a corner or looking at the ceiling. Nova is 100% useless to me. I can usually do ok with hover because it is so slow. Nova's actually move pretty quick even at low level. As a dwarf I just can't react fast enough. I'm trying another one, but in general I am stuck in the wrong place looking the wrong way. Then I go human and maneuver around and get squished while re-toggling. All in all the forms are not fluid. they're a real PITA.
|
Gavin, I'm sure your statement here only reflects your opinion and isn't an indictment of the forms overall. But I feel the need to say that just because you find the forms difficult to use doesn't make them of poor quality. If your level of skill is as low as you claim then there's probably nothing that can be said here that will assist you in their use. Unfortunate but oh well.
The forms are precisely what provide Khelds their utility. While shapeshifting between them is a bit clunky (Still pushing for a reduction in the 3s animation time) their actual use is rather simple. Nova is a Blaster with Fly. At lower levels maneuvering can be difficult due to the increased amount of drift after releasing the movement key but positioning is critical to leverage the two AoEs, particularly Bright/Dark Nova Emanation. Dwarf form is a beast that requires spatial and situational awareness more than anything. You've gotta know where your enemies are in relation to the radius of your PBAoE and, if you're tanking, in relation to your teammates.
While Kheldians are far from rocket science they are quite unlike the standard ATs and do require experience to use well. Timing, positioning and knowledge of game mechanics play a larger role in their success. Its not just toggle up and go with Khelds which is probably why Scrappers make particularly poor first time Kheldians (I know I did anyway). That's why I was staunchly against reduction of their unlock level to 20. Its much too low for new players to have the required knowledge.
Wanna play a Peacebringer? Don't believe the hype. Check out my guide and get the real truth:
PEACEBRINGERS SUCK!!! (Now fully up to date for i21+
)
Quote:
I didn't say they were poor quality. Difficult to learn? Yes. Will I ever learn to use them? Dunno, I haven't given up. And I'm darn stubborn. =) Like I said, I'm trying to learn the dwarf right now. But the question was about ease and so was my answer.|
Originally Posted by Timeshadow
I've been ignoring this thread for quite some time (The title didn't grab my interest) but this point needs contending.
Gavin, I'm sure your statement here only reflects your opinion and isn't an indictment of the forms overall. But I feel the need to say that just because you find the forms difficult to use doesn't make them of poor quality. If your level of skill is as low as you claim then there's probably nothing that can be said here that will assist you in their use. Unfortunate but oh well. |
Can you name any mechanic in City that is harder to learn than kheld form use other than MM pet control? Whether I myself am any good at it is irrelevant.
I've played with a similar mechanic in several different games, not all shapeshifting, but also just massive power shifts/build shifts used in play. Khelds are no where near the hardest, but they are harder than most.
As two fast examples, in Diablo II, I leveled a hardcore wolf/fire druid into 70s and that involves shifting back and forth between two forms one for melee and one for casting. Hardcore means no deaths or the character is deleted by the battlenet servers (technically, replaced with a ghost in tattered robes that you can't log into any more but can look at sadly in your character list until you delete it to free up the character slot). Hell Diablo finally got him.
I got the hang of a tri-form (cat/bear/tauren) druid in WoW plenty fast. And there, the forms actually use totally different mechanics (one has a brute-like rage to power abilities, one uses a critical system building up charges as you hit enemies then spending them on powers, and the main uses mana like City's endurance). But they all move the same, the shift itself is instantaneous in both directions, and the power trays auto swap out for you. Also, in each form you pretty much have all the powers you need. Each one has more than just attacks, it also has a selection of buffs and debuffs.
In both cases, the key difference is that each form was totally self-sufficient. You were not forced to shift to use supplemental powers. Powers specific to the forms were locked to the forms, but each was designed so that it had all the tools it needed and the others were just optional.
Khelds need to drop back to human for too many things. This makes timing and situational awareness a more complicated process than playing in one of the other archtypes that has similar powers to the given form. It does not make the kheld worse or weaker. It does make them harder.
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| The forms are precisely what provide Khelds their utility. While shapeshifting between them is a bit clunky (Still pushing for a reduction in the 3s animation time) their actual use is rather simple. |
Again, I'm not saying they are bad. Just that they are harder than say toggles. Or knowing when to use Vengeance. Or when to activate Gang War. That is all I am saying. Nothing more. If you line up all City mechanics from dead obvious to most complex, forms will be in the top 5 hardest for a great many players. Just like MM pet controls and knockback, they are also among the most powerful. Which is why, in my opinion, the devs made them with the limits they did.
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| Nova is a Blaster with Fly. At lower levels maneuvering can be difficult due to the increased amount of drift after releasing the movement key but positioning is critical to leverage the two AoEs, particularly Bright/Dark Nova Emanation. |
I have blasters. I have blasters with fly and hover. They are a ton easier to use than a nova. Sleep, stun, hold, etc. and the OPTION to hover or walk or stealth, Not to mention the ability to aid self, or phase, or build up without dropping out of the air into the middle of the enemy who you were previously hovering over shooting down at.
Does that mean blasters are stronger or better? No. Easier? Yes. Surely you can see that using a nova form is harder than a generic hover blaster?
Quote:
| Dwarf form is a beast that requires spatial and situational awareness more than anything. You've gotta know where your enemies are in relation to the radius of your PBAoE and, if you're tanking, in relation to your teammates. |
Again, the mechanics of limiting what powers you have in human vs dwarf sets them apart from any other melee class, and again that complexity is what I was commenting on. And once more, I am not saying that it is weak. I am saying it is harder to learn to use well.
If I'm on a brute, I can just toggle up, and use my powers. If I'm on a kheld, I gotta decide if it is safe to drop to human to use a click power. Can you honestly not see that one of these is more complicated than the other? Again, not better or worse. Only more complicated.
On any other character the most you gotta worry about is will aid self get interrupted or is taking the time to hit your clicky going to interrupt your attack chain. You don't really have to worry about suddenly going from tanker to blaster and back to tank in comparative squishiness just to use haste and/or buildup. That is HARDER than simply deciding to use build up before or after your next attack.
Quote:
| While Kheldians are far from rocket science they are quite unlike the standard ATs and do require experience to use well. Timing, positioning and knowledge of game mechanics play a larger role in their success. Its not just toggle up and go with Khelds which is probably why Scrappers make particularly poor first time Kheldians (I know I did anyway). That's why I was staunchly against reduction of their unlock level to 20. Its much too low for new players to have the required knowledge. |
Pain in the ____ is two things: 1 not in any way shape or form a comment on quality, only on ease. 2 an opinion.
Does this fix it:
Forms are a pain in my ______. YMMV.
=)
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
To the OP:
Things to keep in mind when playing a human-only PB:
- your melee attacks out-damage your ranged attacks by a significant margin (I am including photon seekers, dawn strike, and solar flare here).
- +recharge is your friend, even if it's just to get lightform back sooner.
- lightform rocks.
- lack of mez protection outside of lightform sucks.
- some people call you a blapper, but in terms of survivability/damage output you're more of a scranker (shields +dull pain clone + self heal).
- teams make you awesome (as of i13, this is true of all khelds, not just human-only). on the right team your damage will approach scrapper levels, as should your survivability. Solo...meh, you can, but kheldians in general are really meant to team (look at their inherent). as every mission YOU have will contain a void, quantum, or cyst, you'll find you can't solo some of the higher difficulty settings, despite being able to survive them easily on teams.
- you won't feel the "slot crunch". you also won't be as versatile as a bi or tri-former. even with the slot crunch, a tri-former ("properly" slotted) will out damage you (nova form is that good), and out survive you (dwarf form is that good). you will have the opportunity to pick power pools that may be more beneficial to the team tho. at least, that is my experience with two tri-forms and a human only.
Quote:
I love to team with my PB because of the team buffs I get for each member. I was able to tank the AV's on a ITF because there were 2 blaster and 2 scrappers on the team and it made my resist go way up. Its even better in zone PvP because there is mainly blasters and scrappers in the zone. When ever I enter a PvP zone I invite all heavy damage AT and my resist goes to around 50-55%. Keeps my @$$ alive.
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Originally Posted by Guardien
- teams make you awesome (as of i13, this is true of all khelds, not just human-only). on the right team your damage will approach scrapper levels, as should your survivability. Solo...meh, you can, but kheldians in general are really meant to team (look at their inherent). as every mission YOU have will contain a void, quantum, or cyst, you'll find you can't solo some of the higher difficulty settings, despite being able to survive them easily on teams.
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Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
And I agree, they do play plenty different. I did have a 90% nova-form peacebringer for a while. Only dropped to human to self-buff. That was a lot like a hover-blaster. Every other one I tried was pretty unique. If was capable of controlling a character that flies I'd probably still have that peacebringer. Got sick of being stuck on the floor or the ceiling and unable to see anything.
The devs did cram a whole lot of options into these guys. Which is cool.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.