New AT

So you play along with that appearance and concept. Be a Kheldian or an Arachnos soldier. Is it that hard to adhere to the game lore just a little?

The thing you have to ask yourself is that if a ranged/defense archetype is perfectly valid outside the constraints of a limited number of tightly controlled powersets like the epic archetypes why didn't the developers put them together like the regular archetypes in the first place?


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Just to quote myself a bit regarding this question up page...the reason I think they didn't have defense/ranged ATs at the start:

"But back then, there wasn't travel suppression, no ED, mobs weren't all balanced with adequate ranged attacks with obscene range, no target caps and all sorts of other changes. So ranged/defense might really have been OP back then to a degree that they simply couldn't make such a combo work. " - Leo_G

Actually, by their own admission, the reason that the developers didn't create a ranged/defense archetype at the start was because they felt that range is it's own defense since it allows a player to deliver damage outside the range of the higher melee damage attacks.

Since that time the developers have added epic archetypes that allow for a ranged/defense power combo with rigidly controlled powersets. They have also added the ancillary and patron power pools which allow high damage/ranged archetypes to have some defense and high defense/melee archetypes to have some ranged damage. Both of these things could arguably be said to have been done to put a ranged/defense model in the game while still preserving game balance. I have a feeling this puts the creation of another ranged/defense archetype fairly low on the list of priorities.


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Or both of those things could be said to contradict what developers who aren't even on the game (namely Jack and Gecko) may or may not have said six years ago, to go along the lines of such promises as never giving us real numbers, never giving us flashback missions or how silly it would be for heroes to have their own city and for villains to be off in their own, separate city (circa Rick Dakan).

Range as a form of defence has been discredited for a long time now, given that enemies were specifically given ranged attacks to counter exactly that, and the fact that all "jousting" approaches I've seen to date have reduced offence significantly.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Just curious but have the devs actually discredited the 'range as defense' statement in writing?

I'm with everyone else that thinks the whole range mitigation thing as particularly useless but I can see that it does help. Not because ranged attacks do less damage but because all the *other* powers a mob has can't be used. This works counter for some mobs as they can't use ranged attacks while in 'melee mode' but not for all of them. In that vein, jousting can work both ways, i.e. keep em at range so they only use ranged attacks or move around in melee causing the mobs to need to waste time repositioning to use melee (easier with some kind of slow aura or patch). So unless there are double-standards at work here, I don't think 'range as defense' is a particularly good argument.

I'd agree, such an AT would be low on the list of 'to do's but I think if enough people express their desire for it, that could change. With a shiny inherent to work with, I think it's possible to make such a combo fun and unique.

The only thing I've ever seen even remotely like that (with the current batch of developers) is that the devs have always refused to give Dual Pistols to Scrappers.

I've never seen a redname post "No AT shall ever have ranged attacks with a defense powerset!" And even if they had... as has been pointed out in this thread several times, we now have Khelds and Soldiers of Arachnos, making that statement a lie.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

Possibly but it would really just come down to rehash of existing power sets. Far better to use the same resources to create new power sets for the existing archetypes.

So again we come full circle. The option already exists in the game and given the chance to release five new standard archetypes in City of Villains, which was released in conjunction with Enhancement Diversification, the developers did not present us with a ranged/defense option.

Now that I think about it, Kinetic Melee may even be another option to fill in the ranged/defense gap!

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That was the old, crappy devs, not the new, awesome devs.

There's a little bit of staffing overlap there, sure, but the awesome ones left weren't making the major decisions then.

Um... Practically EVERYONE who worked on City of Heroes under Cryptic Studios went over to PlayNC when the switchover happened, minus Jack Emmert. There isn't "a little bit of staffing overlap," they're the exact same people, plus additional staff hired after the fact.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Jack did that I know of, but I wouldn't put too much stock in five-year-old, half-remembered comments from the guy who isn't even with the game any more. He explained that NPCs, by and large, had a higher damage modifier on melee attacks than on ranged ones, conveniently neglecting to mention things like the Nemesis Army, the Matla Group, the Rikti, Crey, the Sky Raiders, the Praetorians and so forth who have MORE than enough purely ranged damage to hurt a ranged character really, really badly.

In fact, a series of enemies are EASIER to fight in melee than they are at range. Gunslingers used to only use their basic gun attacks if you were within 15 feet of them, and Titans will NOT use any ranged attack if you are within 5 feet of them, or basically in melee. Considering how NASTY Zeus Titan rockets are, that's not a small decrease in outgoing damage. Soldiers of Rularuu watchers would not use their Eye Beam if you were close enough, sticking to their quills burst attack, thus not turning everyone else's attacks on you into auto-hit. Anti-Matter's blue clockwork will resort to their melee punches in melee, holding back their damaging, debuffing Radiation blasts. Tsoo Yellow Ink Men will fight hand-to-hand when challenged in melee, avoiding the use of their status effects. Turrets of all kinds (aside from the Pop-Up Turrets) will not be able to fire their main guns if you close into melee, switching instead to a MUCH weaker flamethrower.

And that's not even counting Nemesis Dragoons, who DON'T EVEN HAVE melee attacks, or all the enemies who will back up and shoot at you from twice your snipe range just fine (like Rikti Drones) against which range as a form of defence is utterly worthless. Range as defence works sometimes against some enemies with some characters under some circumstances. But not even Hover can keep you as safe as people keep claiming range can. Things fly, things shoot, things can still reach you.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

That argument doesn't really work. Repurposing old powersets requires only additional balance concerns, but no or little additional artwork. That's why powerset proliferation is hailed as an easier alternative to brand new powersets. Even constructing a new set with old powers from old powersets is still a considerably smaller investment than drawing, animating and putting together a brand new one. There's a reason we're getting Demon Summoning only now.

And, no, it's not "far better" to make new powersets when we have perfectly servicable ones that just aren't available to me because the ATs they exist for me don't play as I'd like them to. Instituting Brutes as an AT that used Tanker sets without being a Tanker is the only reason I've ever been able to play Tanker sets at all.

Actually, they very much did - Masterminds. As per Jack's explanation and Castle's admission, these were designed to be the functioning tanks of City of Villains, but they are currently functioning damage dealers. Masterminds possess SIGNIFICANT amounts of survivability via Bodyguard and the ability to use team-only powers "on themselves" by proxy, they have strong support ability via HAVING those team-only powers, and they have very serious offensive capabilities via the use of their henchmen and whatever debuffs they may have in their support sets.

Seriously, if anyone wants to try and claim an Assault/Defence AT is going to be any more powerful than a Mastermind, then allow me to scoff in your face.

That's ignoring Castle's comment that most attacks in Kinetic Melee are melee-ranged, and ignoring the precedent set by powers like Spines and Claws, which somehow didn't end up being hailed as "Ranged/Defence" despite Spines having an AoE toggle damage aura, a large-scale AoE, a ranged attack and a large-scale cone.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

The people making the decisions now were the people doing the work before.

The people making the decisions before are no longer associated with this game.

Major difference.

I'd be hard pressed to decide where resources are ultimately better used for. Personally, I'd rather they just add a slew of animations to the existing sets (like plasma blade animations for all Fire Melee, cryo-blade for Ice Melee, Pole-axe/scythe animations for Battle Axe, Hand Cannon for Sonic, etc) than 'wasting' resources on new sets that have esoteric concepts like 'Demon Summoning' and 'Kinetics'.

Obviously, much of that is an exaggeration. I *want* new sets but that doesn't mean proliferation, animation re-works or alternate animations will somehow 'get in the way' of said new sets. Our devs are awesome. They can do it all ^^



-Implementation of CoV was still too early in the game's lifespan for serious consideration of this concept
-Show me where the option already exists?
-Kinetic Melee is not ranged. It's melee.

Wrong.

So Masterminds are arguably a third option for ranged/defense that already exists in the game?


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