New AT


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
^ This
Spiders and Khelds are both EXACTLY what this suggestion is like, albeit they are straightjacketed in concept and powers choice. And niether of them are 'Tankmages' in the traditional view of overpoweredness.
Exactly. It's already been proven it's not a tankmage concept. Now it's time to allow varied concepts out there.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Exactly. It's already been proven it's not a tankmage concept. Now it's time to allow varied concepts out there.
Yes. I cringe everytime someone brings up that tired old "Tank-Mage" argument, as if the devs aren't smart and capable enough to balance Ranged + Self Defense after this many years of working with the game.

And actually, if you do a Distribution study of the existing ATs (not EATS), you will see that Defense paired with Ranged Dmg/Control is not represented at all. This (I am sure) was intentional, but if done correctly, would be just fine. Heck, all the Devs would have to do is balance it on the low side of damage, and they could always tweak the damage UP till they get it right where it needed to be. Err on the high side, and of course it would be overpowered and when they need to nerf it down, everyone will cry like babies. Hehe

DO IT! We want Iron Man , don't be namby-pamby Devs ! DO IT !


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Actually, I want to show the small distribution study that I did in order to see what possible AT choices would make the most sense to add. By making sense, they would represent choices that are not represented in the current mix of ATs.

So first I decided on 5 categories of focus, which (of course) matches the original AT choices: Melee, Ranged, Control, Defense, Support
I did a large amount of generalization, so please understand that there are powers and powersets which don't "fit" in these molds as well, but in order to create my distribution, it was necessary to "generalize".

Lets look at the Existing ATs, which we will summarize based on "Main-Focus" and also on "Additional Capability"
AT NAME --> MAIN FOCUS --> ADDITIONAL CAPABILITIES(non-epic)
Blaster -->Ranged -->Melee/Control
Controller -->Control -->Support/Ranged
Defender -->Support -->Ranged/Control
Scrapper -->Melee -->Defense
Tanker -->Defense -->Melee
Brute -->Melee -->Defense
Stalker -->Melee -->Defense
Dominator -->Control -->Melee/Ranged
Mastermind -->Ranged -->Support
Corruptor -->Ranged -->Support/Control

Lets Total our choices in the two divisions
MAIN FOCUS: Ranged(3), Melee(3), Control (2), Defense (1), Support (1)
SECONDARY ABILITIES: Defense (3), Melee (2), Support (2), Ranged (1.5), Control (1.5)

For main focus we have balance in Control, surplus in Ranged and Melee and Deficit in Defense and Support. The secondaries are much closer to overall balance, so too close to call Ranged or Control a deficit, but worth noting they are Half as represented as Self-Defense sets.

Now lets make up TWO new ATs in a general sense and see what happens;

AT ONE: Support Main Focus combined with Melee Secondary
AT TWO: Defense Main Focus combined with Control/Ranged Secondary

How does this change our distribution;
MAIN FOCUS: Ranged(3), Melee(3), Control (2), Defense (2), Support (2)
SECONDARY ABILITIES: Defense (3), Melee (3), Support (2), Ranged (2), Control (2)

Looks good to me.

I have some ideas on the Two AT types I have suggested, but will leave that for another thread.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Personally, I think an Assault/Defense AT would be balanced with the right AT modifiers. The trick (which has already been bought up) is that it needs to not do so much Ranged damage as to render Blaster obsolete and not be so tough as to render Scrappers obsolete. To some extent the first requirement is already incorporated in the design of the Assault sets themselves. Assault sets do not have the ranged AoE capability of Blast sets; generally only having a cone for ranged AoE with all other AoEs being melee range. Thus they are forced to close to melee range if they want to maximize their AoE potential. So realistically I think the AT can be balanced with respect to Blasters simply by carful setting of the damage modifiers (I'd suggest 1.0 ranged and 1.1 melee)

The issue with not rendering Scrappers obsolete is a little trickier. Here are the unenhanced resistance values for Kheldians in Human form which is essentially an Assault/Defense AT (ignoring Eclipse for Warshades):
22.5/22.5/22.5/22.5/33.8/33.8/15/0 (Warshades also get 3.75% defense)

Now compare this to the resistance values for a few Scrapper sets:
Electric: 26.3/26.3/26.3/26.3/61.9/22.5/0/26.3
Fire: 22.5/22.5/67.5/15/22.5/22.5/15/0
Invulnerability: 33.8/33.8/15/15/15/15/15/0 (also has 7.5%-15% defense depending on how many enemies are in melee range)

So overall the Kheldian resistance values are in line with Scrapper values except that Khelds do not get status protection unless they go into Dwarf form (at which point they are no longer an Assault/Defense AT).


Now lets look at the Crab Soldier, unlike the Kheldians he does get status protection (except Knockback) alongside both Resistance and Defense. Specifically he gets (assuming Wolf Spider Armor is skipped):
Defense: 17.5 Ranged, 10% to all others (both Typed and Positional)
Resistance: 18/18/25/25/25/25/2

Now for Scrappers there aren't really any direct comparisons but lets consider the two closest sets. Shield Defense gets 15% positional defense and 11.3% resistance to all but psi. Super Reflexes gets 19.5% positional defense plus scaling resistances at lower health. As with the Khelds these numbers are reasonably in line with the Scrapper numbers for similar sets.

So in conclusion since the EATs are already Assault/Defense ATs with Scrapper level defenses I think a generic Assault/Defense AT could be made without marginalizing either Scrappers or Blasters simply by giving it lower damage modifiers than they have. Besides, both ATs were marginalized in team play by Defenders years ago.

In terms of powersets, I'd say for the Assault sets replace Power Boost with Build Up since Power Boost would be problematic for the AT. Additionally for secondaries Shield would have to be left out since the assault sets use Blast set animations involving both arms.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Personally, I think an Assault/Defense AT would be balanced with the right AT modifiers. The trick (which has already been bought up) is that it needs to not do so much Ranged damage as to render Blaster obsolete and not be so tough as to render Scrappers obsolete. To some extent the first requirement is already incorporated in the design of the Assault sets themselves. Assault sets do not have the ranged AoE capability of Blast sets; generally only having a cone for ranged AoE with all other AoEs being melee range. Thus they are forced to close to melee range if they want to maximize their AoE potential. So realistically I think the AT can be balanced with respect to Blasters simply by carful setting of the damage modifiers (I'd suggest 1.0 ranged and 1.1 melee)

The issue with not rendering Scrappers obsolete is a little trickier. Here are the unenhanced resistance values for Kheldians in Human form which is essentially an Assault/Defense AT (ignoring Eclipse for Warshades):
22.5/22.5/22.5/22.5/33.8/33.8/15/0 (Warshades also get 3.75% defense)

Now compare this to the resistance values for a few Scrapper sets:
Electric: 26.3/26.3/26.3/26.3/61.9/22.5/0/26.3
Fire: 22.5/22.5/67.5/15/22.5/22.5/15/0
Invulnerability: 33.8/33.8/15/15/15/15/15/0 (also has 7.5%-15% defense depending on how many enemies are in melee range)

So overall the Kheldian resistance values are in line with Scrapper values except that Khelds do not get status protection unless they go into Dwarf form (at which point they are no longer an Assault/Defense AT).


Now lets look at the Crab Soldier, unlike the Kheldians he does get status protection (except Knockback) alongside both Resistance and Defense. Specifically he gets (assuming Wolf Spider Armor is skipped):
Defense: 17.5 Ranged, 10% to all others (both Typed and Positional)
Resistance: 18/18/25/25/25/25/2

Now for Scrappers there aren't really any direct comparisons but lets consider the two closest sets. Shield Defense gets 15% positional defense and 11.3% resistance to all but psi. Super Reflexes gets 19.5% positional defense plus scaling resistances at lower health. As with the Khelds these numbers are reasonably in line with the Scrapper numbers for similar sets.

So in conclusion since the EATs are already Assault/Defense ATs with Scrapper level defenses I think a generic Assault/Defense AT could be made without marginalizing either Scrappers or Blasters simply by giving it lower damage modifiers than they have. Besides, both ATs were marginalized in team play by Defenders years ago.

In terms of powersets, I'd say for the Assault sets replace Power Boost with Build Up since Power Boost would be problematic for the AT. Additionally for secondaries Shield would have to be left out since the assault sets use Blast set animations involving both arms.
I'd agree with keeping Power Boost out of a Ranged/Defense set.

Mind you though, I like the idea of Ranged/Defense over Assault/Defense (but that's for one purely selfish reason called "Dual Pistols" )...

I tried to find the list of the OMG RECHARGE of Blaster primaries...I don't recall them being all that. If I remember correctly, wasnt the best dps available for Blasters, needing to use melee attacks as well?

Eh...I looked for 30mins couldnt find it.

Low Hit Points (Stalker level with Stalker cap)

Stalker Secondaries (replacing hide with a level 1 Stealth power at 3.75% defense to all)

With an inherent power that doesn't help give lots of added damage to DPS (which criticals, fury, and defiance do).

With VEATS (I dont mention HEATS, purely because VEATS have mez protection, while HEATS need to switch to Drawf) already proving you can be RANGED/DEFENSE and not be a tankmage, I fail to see how this AT would be a tank mage.

I have a 50 blaster. I'm working on my second one now. Staying at range is never all that easy outside of hovering. Enemies keep attacking and are able to run in on me, if I keep attacking.

I find my blaster in melee WAY more than I think a blaster should be in melee. I see alot of blasters get into this situation as well, more so if they lack Hover.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by brandx View Post

with veats (i dont mention heats, purely because veats have mez protection, while heats need to switch to drawf) already proving you can be ranged/defense and not be a tankmage, i fail to see how this at would be a tank mage.

I have a 50 blaster. I'm working on my second one now. Staying at range is never all that easy outside of hovering. Enemies keep attacking and are able to run in on me, if i keep attacking.

I find my blaster in melee way more than i think a blaster should be in melee. I see alot of blasters get into this situation as well, more so if they lack hover.
^ qft


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

My thoughts for a Ranged/Defense AT is to make the Defense Primary and then have a Controller/Blaster hybrid as the secondary. You give them low HPs to avoid actually being Tanks, even though they have Tanker-Level Defense.

Since their Attack set would be reduced to a dmg mod of .75 to .85 they should be durable, but with lower damage so Blasters and Corruptors will not be Jealous of their damage. You then Mix in Single Target Blasts and Controls but very little AoE so that controllers are not marginalized. No need for melee attacks, but perhaps some could be added in the ancillary powers.

At the Tier 9 instead of Pets, you could have a Defender-Strength Nuke. It would be interesting to have an AT with both a primary and a secondary Crash power. But my original thought was to come up with a completely new and unique Tier 9 instead.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
At the Tier 9 instead of Pets, you could have a Defender-Strength Nuke. It would be interesting to have an AT with both a primary and a secondary Crash power. But my original thought was to come up with a completely new and unique Tier 9 instead.
Rad Defenders and Super Strength/Crashable God Modes can already achieve this effect.

I have a Rad/Dark Defender with EMP Pulse and Blackstar.

The reason I point this out is because I'd rather not see a random new AT based on say, a defender with melee or a blaster with shields. As has been pointed out we already have them in the form of VEATs and HEATS and some specialised slotting power choices and use of power pools from existing ATs.

I'd rather see themed ATs (Paragon/Praetorian Police, Circle of Thorns-style, etc) which don't unlock at 50 (the new change to Epics unlocking at 20 could be seen to be, employing wild speculation with abandon, a step towards alternative methods of achieving ATs).

There are enough groups already in existence for the concepts to work. Wyvern, Legacy Chain, Longbow, Vanguard for starters. Malta, Carnies, Council, 5th Column, Circle of Thorns, Rikti too. A lot of their powers are similar to existing ATs and, bar the costume pieces for the majorty, a lot of players already have rolled characters that either still are or were once onvolved with these groups.

So whilst I appreciate that people want to play around with existing formulae for 'new ATs', please can we have some crazy thinking first and then scale it down to something workable?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
The issue with not rendering Scrappers obsolete is a little trickier. Here are the unenhanced resistance values for Kheldians in Human form which is essentially an Assault/Defense AT (ignoring Eclipse for Warshades):
22.5/22.5/22.5/22.5/33.8/33.8/15/0 (Warshades also get 3.75% defense)

Now compare this to the resistance values for a few Scrapper sets:
Electric: 26.3/26.3/26.3/26.3/61.9/22.5/0/26.3
Fire: 22.5/22.5/67.5/15/22.5/22.5/15/0
Invulnerability: 33.8/33.8/15/15/15/15/15/0 (also has 7.5%-15% defense depending on how many enemies are in melee range)
You don't really need to worry too much about making Scrappers obsolete, because an Assault set just doesn't have a full set of melee attacks, or indeed would be justified in having a Scrapper melee damage mod. It's actually in-line with why such a set doesn't out-damage Blasters at range. You have an Assault set which has both melee and ranged attacks in it, so you're really not going to have to worry about it outdamaging either AT.

In general, I never bought the Tank/Mage argument. As long as Masterminds exist in this game balanced at the point they are, no-one has the right to grumble about the danger of Tank/Mages. And again - we already have ample evidence that such a concept can be balanced, as Epic ATs are just that. We just need an AT that works kind of like this, only has more choice in appearance and powerset selection, as well as basic concept.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
My thoughts for a Ranged/Defense AT is to make the Defense Primary and then have a Controller/Blaster hybrid as the secondary. You give them low HPs to avoid actually being Tanks, even though they have Tanker-Level Defense.

Since their Attack set would be reduced to a dmg mod of .75 to .85 they should be durable, but with lower damage so Blasters and Corruptors will not be Jealous of their damage. You then Mix in Single Target Blasts and Controls but very little AoE so that controllers are not marginalized. No need for melee attacks, but perhaps some could be added in the ancillary powers.

At the Tier 9 instead of Pets, you could have a Defender-Strength Nuke. It would be interesting to have an AT with both a primary and a secondary Crash power. But my original thought was to come up with a completely new and unique Tier 9 instead.
Hmmm...you know...going Defense/Range Set in order of powers might be the way to go, but even with that order, I'd say keep it at Scrapper levels of Defense.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
I have a 50 blaster. I'm working on my second one now. Staying at range is never all that easy outside of hovering. Enemies keep attacking and are able to run in on me, if I keep attacking.

I find my blaster in melee WAY more than I think a blaster should be in melee. I see alot of blasters get into this situation as well, more so if they lack Hover.

learn how to kite? that is how you stay out of melee on a blaster.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Hmmm...you know...going Defense/Range Set in order of powers might be the way to go, but even with that order, I'd say keep it at Scrapper levels of Defense.
Your Probably Right, Tanker survivability on a low hp platform might as well be Scrapper survivability on a med Hp platform.

And one thing I feel very strongly about is that the Developers should start on the low-side of the scale and improve it as needed. For example LOW HPs, Scrapper Defense, Defender Damage. Start there, if its too weak, boost the Defense and/or HPs as needed till it falls in place.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint View Post
learn how to kite? that is how you stay out of melee on a blaster.
Much, much easier said than done, Quinty. Especially versus Mobs with homing boulders, or the like.


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic_Princess View Post
The reason I point this out is because I'd rather not see a random new AT based on say, a defender with melee or a blaster with shields. As has been pointed out we already have them in the form of VEATs and HEATS and some specialised slotting power choices and use of power pools from existing ATs.

I'd rather see themed ATs (Paragon/Praetorian Police, Circle of Thorns-style, etc) which don't unlock at 50 (the new change to Epics unlocking at 20 could be seen to be, employing wild speculation with abandon, a step towards alternative methods of achieving ATs).

There are enough groups already in existence for the concepts to work. Wyvern, Legacy Chain, Longbow, Vanguard for starters. Malta, Carnies, Council, 5th Column, Circle of Thorns, Rikti too. A lot of their powers are similar to existing ATs and, bar the costume pieces for the majorty, a lot of players already have rolled characters that either still are or were once onvolved with these groups.

So whilst I appreciate that people want to play around with existing formulae for 'new ATs', please can we have some crazy thinking first and then scale it down to something workable?
I see no reason why your idea cannot co-exist with the ones being presented here.
New Base ATs and new "Un-lockable" ATs can both be introduced into the game.

Regarding EATS, I can only comment on Hero-side Kheldians (not having played Villain side much at all) these ATs may exist in the game, but I really do not like them. IF they were functionally the same but without "Forms" and major "Achilles' Heels" of Quantum damage then I would probably love these ATs.
Since they are not, you will continue to see me lobby for new base ATs


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shocklock View Post
I really like the idea of an assault/defenses character could go defenses/assault for its opposite. One of heroes, one for villians.

Type of character that I envision having this would be Iron man sorts of characters. A mix of melee/range and defensive shields to protect them. A whole slew of character concepts.

No idea what to call it other then Power Armor. Guess you could call it Armored. Focus on a team would be a switch roles sort of play. Not really focused on argo generation and pulling people off of others ala scrappers and tanks but also not heavy damage AT. IMO its weakness should be no control like powers and no self healing. Just swap out self heals with some other power perhaps a placate to shed a foes focus?

I could see this sort of AT having a switch mode sort of inherent power. They active a toggle and are in offensive mode doing more damage but taking more damage. Toggle off and they are in defensive mode resisting more damage but doing less damage.
Damage output would be similiar to dominators outside and inside of domination, defenses would be stalker outside and scrapper inside of buffs. So you could have domination like damage with stalker like shields or dominator (no domination) damage and scrapper like shields.

I don't think it would be overly powerful and cool in concept but doesn't really have a team role outside of them being pitch hitters.

Epic pools would need to be designed for them.. not sure what fits them though. No controls or heals, ranged aoe's and debuffs maybe.
How about "Avenger"

Couple other possibilities "Protector", "Guardian" (Hehe sounds like server-specific unlockable ATs now)

How about taking the Defender Inherent but make the Damage scale up as the team gets hurt.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Much, much easier said than done, Quinty. Especially versus Mobs with homing boulders, or the like.
boulders are aranged attack, not melee. that was in direct response to B_X saying she couldn't stay out of melee range on her blaster.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint View Post
learn how to kite? that is how you stay out of melee on a blaster.
So, essentially "lrn2ply?" That's not very productive.

I've seen a few people do what passes for "kiting." Rooftop Raider (what ever happened to the guy?) used to be amazing at it, and without Hover, either. He used REALLY huge jumping arcs with Combat Jumping and Hurdle. I have no idea exactly how he did it, but he seemed to manage to keep out of melee sometimes.

That said, this is something I've found completely unrepeatable and, with all due respect for Rooftop Rider, looked like crap in actual action. The game isn't designed for this, and travel powers were made to suppress to combat exactly that practice. In my experience, in tight quarters, you're not going to keep away from melee enemies. If you're on the ground, they'll run up to you and hit you as you're animating your attacks. You can back up or jump over them all you want. You WILL get hit animating Power Burst or Executioner's Shot.

Furthermore, range IS NOT sufficient defence just by itself. Sure, you can avoid some attacks from some enemies. Then you get hit with things like the Rikti, the Nemesis Army, Malta, the Rogue Vanguard, the Soldiers of Rularuu or all the lovely Praetorians whose minions have as much RANGED powers as your average lieutenant. God damn Siege's minions each has Power Burst! These kiting tactics my or may not work in the lower levels, but in the high levels where things can two-shot you from range, they just don't cut it. And I've tried.

People keep bringing this up with an Assault/Defence AT, and I never buy it. Kiting by itself is NOT going to keep a ranged character alive, and even if it did, you're still missing your melee attacks. And, no - jumping over an enemy animating a melee attack is not good practice if you have more than one melee attack worth using. You don't put down a melee attack chain by jumping over. I've tried. It just doesn't work.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
So, essentially "lrn2ply?" That's not very productive.

I've seen a few people do what passes for "kiting." Rooftop Raider (what ever happened to the guy?) used to be amazing at it, and without Hover, either. He used REALLY huge jumping arcs with Combat Jumping and Hurdle. I have no idea exactly how he did it, but he seemed to manage to keep out of melee sometimes.

That said, this is something I've found completely unrepeatable and, with all due respect for Rooftop Rider, looked like crap in actual action. The game isn't designed for this, and travel powers were made to suppress to combat exactly that practice. In my experience, in tight quarters, you're not going to keep away from melee enemies. If you're on the ground, they'll run up to you and hit you as you're animating your attacks. You can back up or jump over them all you want. You WILL get hit animating Power Burst or Executioner's Shot.

Furthermore, range IS NOT sufficient defence just by itself. Sure, you can avoid some attacks from some enemies. Then you get hit with things like the Rikti, the Nemesis Army, Malta, the Rogue Vanguard, the Soldiers of Rularuu or all the lovely Praetorians whose minions have as much RANGED powers as your average lieutenant. God damn Siege's minions each has Power Burst! These kiting tactics my or may not work in the lower levels, but in the high levels where things can two-shot you from range, they just don't cut it. And I've tried.

People keep bringing this up with an Assault/Defence AT, and I never buy it. Kiting by itself is NOT going to keep a ranged character alive, and even if it did, you're still missing your melee attacks. And, no - jumping over an enemy animating a melee attack is not good practice if you have more than one melee attack worth using. You don't put down a melee attack chain by jumping over. I've tried. It just doesn't work.
just because YOU can't do it, does not mean other people can't do it. while not a good means of defending against ranged attacks, it is a very good means of defending against melee attacks. why do you think the power is called COMBAT jumping? so it can be done in combat to avoid attacks. and paired with hurdle, it is that much better.

as for saying Lrn2play, i never said that at all and don't appriciate words being put into my mouth. hence why i had the question mark after what i said. i have no idea if the person knows how to do this, so i made a questionable suggestion to help keep them out of melee. and as it may not be the best defense against enemy attacks, it is certainly worth the try as it does help prevent melee heavy npc's from hitting you.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
No, actually the numbers are the same on Scrappers and Brutes. Stalkers differ a little because they lose a power to get Hide, but Scrapper and Brute SR is the same except for power order.

The ONLY difference between a scrapper and a brute (in sets they share) is a brute has higher caps, the base values are identical. Brutes split the difference in that they have scrapper base numbers with tanker caps, and they can't reach those caps without outside assistance. Also, blasters have the same caps for resistance as scrappers, they just can't even get close to it (actually, I think every AT except tanks and brutes have the same resistance caps)

Besides, I can just hear the whining about how "The defenses on this new AT don't have the same numbers as the others with the sets! We want SCRAPPER SR, not this gimped version!"

I love how it never occurs to the people asking for these ATs that if it wasn't overpowered and imbalanced we'd probably already have it.

Seriously, they scrapped the "take any powers you want" mold in the first beta for the game because people were making characters exactly like what is being described here. And when the devs decided to implement the AT system, guess what combination was missing? Yup....the ranged/defense combination. Because it is inherently imbalanced to have a character type with strong ranged ability and strong defenses.

Imagine how overpowered the combination of, say, Psi Assault/Dark Armor would become at high levels.
Only because of Drain Psyche really, I already pointed it out as a problematic power in my first post. Switch it with Aim, problem solved.

SR and Shields would probably also be an issue, so omit them from the sets. Ice Armour and Energy Armour could probably be copied across instead, it'd be more thematic with the primaries anyway (they'd probably require a little work as part of the process to ensure they aren't imbalanced).

Human form PBs and Warshades make a mockery of the idea that a set consisting of ranged attacks, melees attacks and a Armour set secondary would be overpowered automatically. A small amount of rejigging would avoid such issues.

Mind you without a reason for the AT to exist or a proposed inherent I don't see what the AT is really for.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint View Post
just because YOU can't do it, does not mean other people can't do it. while not a good means of defending against ranged attacks, it is a very good means of defending against melee attacks. why do you think the power is called COMBAT jumping? so it can be done in combat to avoid attacks. and paired with hurdle, it is that much better.
I have very serious doubts as to how effective this actually is. I've never seen anyone get any use out of it, I've never been able to pull it off, myself, and even Rooftop Raider's old videos were only partially successful, as the guy himself admitted. Hence, I have a hard time believing this is a big enough concern to merit barring an AT. If you have videos of this to demonstrate, I'd be glad to see them.

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as for saying Lrn2play, i never said that at all and don't appriciate words being put into my mouth.
Pardon me, but I've seen this argument branded around a lot. "Learn to play" tends to be the default response of people just brushing a problem under the rug. Dark Armour seems to be using up too much endurance. Learn to manage your endurance better. Oranbega maps are confusing and difficult to navigate. Learn to use your map. Running bosses are impossible to stop. Play a Controller. Dr, it hurts when I lift my arm. Don't lift your arm.

If I misread your intention, I apologise. I'm just instinctively suspicious of arguments that start with "learn to" at the head.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
^ This
Spiders and Khelds are both EXACTLY what this suggestion is like, albeit they are straightjacketed in concept and powers choice. And niether of them are 'Tankmages' in the traditional view of overpoweredness.
All I was really saying is:

If there's no balance problem....why don't we have it already?

And....if Epic ATs are already like this.....why do you want another AT that does the exact same thing?


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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
All I was really saying is:

If there's no balance problem....why don't we have it already?

And....if Epic ATs are already like this.....why do you want another AT that does the exact same thing?
3rd post answers that question, at least from the OPs point of view (I already asked it). Not saying I agree 100% with his answer but it has already come up.


 

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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA View Post
Mind you without a reason for the AT to exist or a proposed inherent I don't see what the AT is really for.
The AT is for dealing damage!
It would exist to put a smile on your face while doing the above!

Does there need to be another reason, it is after a game?


L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR

Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller

 

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Originally Posted by Psiphon View Post
The AT is for dealing damage!
It would exist to put a smile on your face while doing the above!

Does there need to be another reason, it is after a game?
As is it just seems a bit dull to me compared to other suggestions for new ATs in this forum. Given that there's plenty of suggestions for new ATs cropping up all the time on the forums, I'm just saying there's not much here which makes it unique or stand out compared to some of them.


It needs some zing IMO, something to make it stand out more compared to those other suggestions for new ATs, and to stand out against ones already in the game.


 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
And....if Epic ATs are already like this.....why do you want another AT that does the exact same thing?
I must admit comments like this leave me completely bemused.

The EATS/VEATS are very limited in their design and powers and therefore their concept options, the introduction of an AT like this would allow for an expansion of these options.

Based on what your saying why would anyone ever make more than one type of a specific AT?
If you've made a BS/Regen scrapper why make a FM/SD, they do the same thing?
Or why not take it a step further?
If you've made a DM/SR scrapper why make BA/ElA Brute, they both do the same thing?

The beauty of CoX is the amount of options that you have for powers and customisation. Different combinations even within the same AT make for a completely different playstyle.

Given that there was such a high demand for power customisation shows how important concept is.

So in answer to your question:
Concept, playstyle and above all fun!
...


L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR

Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller