More solutions for fixing the MA


Aura_Familia

 

Posted

Solution 1:
Let us report arcs as potential exploits.

When an arc has been reported enough times it should be locked, automatically. A GM will then inspect the arc and if the arc is not an exploit it is unlocked and flagged in such a way that it can't be locked again. If the arc is republished the flag goes away and it can once again be locked if it is reported enough times.

Should the arc upon inspection prove to be abusing an exploit it will of course not be unlocked and appropriate action may be taken against the author, such as revoking all MA publishing rights (and giving their slots to me as a reward for coming up with this idea).


Solution 2:

Change ratings from stars to like/dislike. This would make it harder to grief by rating down arcs. It would also remedy the current situation of only 5-star arcs being noticed in searches.


Solution 3:

Make every completed play of an arc count.

Right now, even if someone loves an arc so much that they want to play it on all their alts, only one play counts. This is bad, especially considering that one of the requirements for the Hall of Fame is a large (ridiculously so) number of plays.

Make every completed play count. That would more accurately represent an arcs true popularity. Maybe there should be a time limit to prevent farming or gaming of the system, but I don't really know if that's necessary.

Since it's apparently not obvious to everyone I'll point out that I don't think we should be allowed to RATE an arc with every playthrough. Just that each playthrough should count for the numbers of plays displayed, and for the purpose of things like Hall of Fame, etc.


Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522

 

Posted

Solution 1... sure. I'm pretty much jaded to any ifs-ands-or-buts excuses on farms at this point. Quite frankly, I'd rather drive away people too stupid to read the in-game information about what not to do than put up with the pox of clamouring whiners we have who are so insensitive about their story that the diminishment of XP earning directly translate to a complete failure of the whole system.

Solution 2. I like this idea a lot, especially since right now, the granulised system is really bad and awkward for review purposes. What makes an arc 5 star for me might not make it a 5 star for someone else. All we have at this point is a system which blitheringly tries to quantify 'liked it' and 'disliked it,' and handles it badly.

Solution 3. Farms get run a lot. :\


 

Posted

Interesting ideas!

#1 - Sounds good, but there would need to be a punishment for false reporting or it could be abused. I vote that the extra slots are donated to charity though...

#2 - Excellent idea, hope it gets implemented. The star system is in need of a huge overhaul!

#3 - I like the idea of character based versus account based reviews! Every play might be a bit much - as stated by others, farms do get run alot...

Devs, I hope you are listening to FredrikSvanberg, he makes alot of sense!


 

Posted

I like all of them. Of course the biggest hot button for me is the review system overhaul.

WN


Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste

or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story

 

Posted

Though it's a bit late to be implemented now, the best method of improving the MA would be to take the AE buildings out of Mercy Isle and Atlas Park.

It'll still help a little.


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Posted

Good things, yes.

2: I still think there should be several categories to rate an arc in, though.
Like Story, Characters, and Action. Maybe also Difficulty.
Because how great someone finds an arc overall does not tell what they liked about it and stories that got rated low for something you wont mind at all or might explicitly be looking for (e.g. good Story, little Action) will be lost down there under the big pile of high-rated ones. With several categories you could look for a story with great X, and a bad Y value wont keep it from showing up at the top of that list. Just making stars into "I like" wont help that.


 

Posted

Those things are already handled by categories, keywords and the arc's description. If you're going to introduce ratings for all those things we have as keywords now it will just cause an even greater mess, since the basic problem with ratings is that there is no yardstick by which everyone measures these things. Something that is 5-star Action for you might only count as 3 stars of Action for me, and 1 star for someone else. And so on.

Since it's all subjective anyway, why try to put a number on it? You either like it or you don't; that's entirely subjective and easy to figure out, and by finding out how well liked an arc is (ratio of "likes" to total number of plays, for example) everyone can see that an arc is either generally well liked or not. If a lot of people like an arc it's a good chance that other people will also like it, including you, so try it out and see. At least with a different kind of ratings system there wouldn't be a cut-off at 5 stars below which nobody can find anything. Searching for arcs would no longer depend upon the almighty 5-star rating.

Another reason for changing the ratings system would be to make things easier for everyone. We have today a problem with people thinking that they must click each star in order to get to the number they want, so they start out by clicking star number 1, then 2, then 3, etc. The author gets a note saying that someone has voted for his arc, but no tickets, so he knows someone voted less than 3 stars and thinks that is the final score, but the final score is in fact the last star the player has clicked. This is not intuitive! If you only can choose "like" or "dislike" - heck, there doesn't even have to be a "dislike" option - it is less likely to cause similar confusion.

I haven't even started talking about people who don't rate arcs because they don't know what the stars mean; or because they only rate farms; or because they don't want to rate an arc if they can't give it 5 stars because they don't want to punish the author by condemning the arc to 4-star oblivion. And I'm sure there are many more reasons out there for why someone won't rate an arc they have just played. I'm equally sure that a large number of those reasons can be solved by making the entire process simpler.


Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
When an arc has been reported enough times it should be locked, automatically.
So this way I can get a bunch of friends together and report-grief someone's arc so it gets locked and can't be played until a GM reviews it (which could be a while), and then they have to deal with support headaches? Sounds great!


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
So this way I can get a bunch of friends together and report-grief someone's arc so it gets locked and can't be played until a GM reviews it (which could be a while), and then they have to deal with support headaches? Sounds great!
Similar systems are in use in other places and they seem to work. Sure, an arc might become unavailable for a few days while it gets sorted out. If I was the GM and I discovered that someone had gathered 20 people to report an arc that didn't need reporting I would hand out some temporary bans for griefing. Or whatever they do to griefers these days.


Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522

 

Posted

Maybe I'm overlooking something major here, but what are these similar systems? Are they in this game, or are you referencing features in another game that operate this way? Honestly, the "report content" button is more than enough, as I'm reasonably sure every reported arc is looked over at some point by CS staff. Even if your method were to become the de facto way of doing it, it wouldn't stop people from simply republishing their arcs to clear all the reports against them.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
Those things are already handled by categories, keywords and the arc's description. If you're going to introduce ratings for all those things we have as keywords now it will just cause an even greater mess, since the basic problem with ratings is that there is no yardstick by which everyone measures these things. Something that is 5-star Action for you might only count as 3 stars of Action for me, and 1 star for someone else. And so on.

Since it's all subjective anyway, why try to put a number on it? You either like it or you don't; that's entirely subjective and easy to figure out, and by finding out how well liked an arc is (ratio of "likes" to total number of plays, for example) everyone can see that an arc is either generally well liked or not. If a lot of people like an arc it's a good chance that other people will also like it, including you, so try it out and see. At least with a different kind of ratings system there wouldn't be a cut-off at 5 stars below which nobody can find anything. Searching for arcs would no longer depend upon the almighty 5-star rating.

Another reason for changing the ratings system would be to make things easier for everyone. We have today a problem with people thinking that they must click each star in order to get to the number they want, so they start out by clicking star number 1, then 2, then 3, etc. The author gets a note saying that someone has voted for his arc, but no tickets, so he knows someone voted less than 3 stars and thinks that is the final score, but the final score is in fact the last star the player has clicked. This is not intuitive! If you only can choose "like" or "dislike" - heck, there doesn't even have to be a "dislike" option - it is less likely to cause similar confusion.

I haven't even started talking about people who don't rate arcs because they don't know what the stars mean; or because they only rate farms; or because they don't want to rate an arc if they can't give it 5 stars because they don't want to punish the author by condemning the arc to 4-star oblivion. And I'm sure there are many more reasons out there for why someone won't rate an arc they have just played. I'm equally sure that a large number of those reasons can be solved by making the entire process simpler.
Seriously. Make the process more complicated and folks will just yawn, not rate, and move on. good points.

As to your suggestions, great. BUT there MUST be the same penalty in 1. for those who falsely accuse some arcs as a farm, or you're opening the door to a level of griefing that would make the current star rating system look like a joke.

I would also say a team of 3 GMs should review all arcs. If not then you get into the issue of one GM seeing something as a farm, and another not.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
Similar systems are in use in other places and they seem to work. Sure, an arc might become unavailable for a few days while it gets sorted out. If I was the GM and I discovered that someone had gathered 20 people to report an arc that didn't need reporting I would hand out some temporary bans for griefing. Or whatever they do to griefers these days.
While I like your idea, I think you are SERIOUSLY underestimating it as "for a few days". With some farms in existence for MONTHS, I don't think there are enough GMs for it to be just for a few days. I'm fine with that though as long as there is an epic penalty for grief reporting.

And yes I release my proposal addition to your idea would make the whole process even longer.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
Solution 2:

Change ratings from stars to like/dislike. This would make it harder to grief by rating down arcs. It would also remedy the current situation of only 5-star arcs being noticed in searches.
http://techcrunch.com/2009/09/22/you...s-are-useless/

Of course, YouTube has a considerable advantage over CoH here: people don't ragequit YouTube.


@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs

 

Posted

Fix PvP first.


"PvP Messiah"

 

Posted

1) will lead to griefing. Also, the CS staff doesn't have the manpower to do what it needs to do now.

2) will not help. We don't have four-star oblivion now; we have five-star oblivion. There are over 100 pages of five-star arcs, so even if you have a five-star arc it's being thrown into a pile no one is going to grovel over to find it.

3) helps farms more than legit arcs and will exacerbate gaming the system.

So that's a "no" all the way around, I'd say.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venture View Post
1) will lead to griefing. Also, the CS staff doesn't have the manpower to do what it needs to do now.
Griefing already happens, and is much easier to do with the star ratings system. We don't know whether they have the manpower to do this because none of us know anything about the number of GMs or their normal workload.

Quote:
2) will not help. We don't have four-star oblivion now; we have five-star oblivion. There are over 100 pages of five-star arcs, so even if you have a five-star arc it's being thrown into a pile no one is going to grovel over to find it.
Then a change is needed now more than ever.

Quote:
3) helps farms more than legit arcs and will exacerbate gaming the system.
There won't be many farms around once 1) has been in use for a while, I hope. "Gaming" the system is already in effect but in a different manner, which is much easier. If you think it will be easy to get a bunch of people to play your arc over and over on different alts if the arc isn't also fun and worthy of replay, then I salute you in your ability to herd cats.

Quote:
So that's a "no" all the way around, I'd say.
I noticed a lack of alternative solutions. Oh well.


Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
Griefing already happens, and is much easier to do with the star ratings system. We don't know whether they have the manpower to do this because none of us know anything about the number of GMs or their normal workload.



Then a change is needed now more than ever.



There won't be many farms around once 1) has been in use for a while, I hope. "Gaming" the system is already in effect but in a different manner, which is much easier. If you think it will be easy to get a bunch of people to play your arc over and over on different alts if the arc isn't also fun and worthy of replay, then I salute you in your ability to herd cats.



I noticed a lack of alternative solutions. Oh well.
Sorry Fred, but with the total lack of anything done to various farms that have existed for months at a time, I'm going to have to very strongly disagree with the notion that we don't know if they have the manpower or not.

I'm going to go with a strong NO, they don't have the manpower, or as many farms as have been in the system for so long, would not be. With how vehemently folks in-game and on the boards have complained about AE farms for ages, you'd think that if they DID have the GM staff many of those would be gone in weeks (not even days as you are assuming). However, MANY of those farms have existed for MONTHS.

They. Do. Not.

I agree with Venture on that point. But that doesn't mean I don't think your suggestion shouldn't be done. See my previous posts.

EDIT: Keep in mind you are also saying that the arcs in question have to be actually played.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venture View Post
2) will not help. We don't have four-star oblivion now; we have five-star oblivion. There are over 100 pages of five-star arcs, so even if you have a five-star arc it's being thrown into a pile no one is going to grovel over to find it.
There are algorithms for keeping good fresh content on the top of the list using up/down voting. This method could be adapted to the existing star system as well (and it, or something like it, should have been implemented long ago), but first you'd have to determine what constitutes a positive or negative reaction, and because the stars are used in such an idiosyncratic way, that's pretty much impossible without datamining everyone's voting records.

The failure of the star system is really in the psychological tendency to ascribe too much credence to the mathematical mean of the star ratings, as if they were well-considered evaluations on a standard scale and not mostly knee-jerk like/hate reactions. Contrast:

200 plays, 100 upvotes, 25 downvotes
200 plays, 4 stars

In the first case, I can see that half the people who played the arc liked it enough to say so, whereas only one out of eight found it objectionably bad. Given the dipstick quotient among players, it looks like I'll have a better than even chance of liking this arc. In the second case, I have no clue what that even means. Did everyone rate it 4 stars, meaning it's consistently better than average, but not great? Did 200 people try it but only one person care enough to give it a rating? Did a large number of people love it and give it 5 stars, and then some people objected to the color of the custom enemies' costumes or a corny joke or the fact that it's not an optimal farm and give it a 1 star out of spite? You tell me! Yet that 4 star rating is supposed to be everything I need to know. And that's terrible.


@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
Solution 1:
Let us report arcs as potential exploits.

When an arc has been reported enough times it should be locked, automatically. A GM will then inspect the arc and if the arc is not an exploit it is unlocked and flagged in such a way that it can't be locked again. If the arc is republished the flag goes away and it can once again be locked if it is reported enough times.

Should the arc upon inspection prove to be abusing an exploit it will of course not be unlocked and appropriate action may be taken against the author, such as revoking all MA publishing rights (and giving their slots to me as a reward for coming up with this idea).
Automatic locking would prove to have too many mistakes or potential for griefing. It shouldn't be automatic, just like how when we report an e-mail as spam it doesn't immediately lock that person's e-mail rights. Investigating reports of abuse or exploits would have gone a long way towards preventing many of the widespread AE exploits that we've seen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
Solution 2:

Change ratings from stars to like/dislike. This would make it harder to grief by rating down arcs. It would also remedy the current situation of only 5-star arcs being noticed in searches.
Yes, the current rating system needs a rehaul, as almost everything (good, bad, and mediocre) tends to fall to 4 stars, and the unplayed usually remain unplayed and forgotten.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
Solution 3:

Make every completed play of an arc count.

Right now, even if someone loves an arc so much that they want to play it on all their alts, only one play counts. This is bad, especially considering that one of the requirements for the Hall of Fame is a large (ridiculously so) number of plays.

Make every completed play count. That would more accurately represent an arcs true popularity.
I like that idea. It would also help to provide another gadge for how popular or how strong an arc's current rating is.


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