I have no idea why he would sacrifice defense/reistance for more dmg. There are just so much "good" dmg abillities out there. Depending on your Powerset you can dish out pretty desent amout of dmg, if you take Superstrength you can have 2 Rage up at the same time if you are lucky for a wooping 160% more dmg.
But there really isnt any idea to sacrifice slots for dmg. It all comes down to rotation. For maximizing dmg you cant just hit whats lit and take all abillities. You must have a clear thought on HOW to address different situation. If you try to make it so you can meet all kinds of situations you become Jack of all trades, master of nothing
Tankers can deal fairly amount of dmg out there but what i guess this person fail to understand is the Punchvoke mechanic, he will draw aggro onto himself thats a nobrainer and if he doesnt have set amount of defense/resistance he will be shredded.
Thats what tankers do, they thank stuff. But if you can find the golden road between dps and defense its never a bad idea to bring hurting to the table.
the whole idea of a scranker burns me..if you dont want the values a tank gets you have a choice to be a brute or a scrapper which would be more the liking.
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Exactly, that being said, its possible to build a damaging tank and not sacrifice much in terms of resists/defence too if you know what you are doing.|
Originally Posted by Severe
the whole idea of a scranker burns me..if you dont want the values a tank gets you have a choice to be a brute or a scrapper which would be more the liking.
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Fire secondary is a good example for PvE damage dealing since it has a lot of area damage powers, although you are never going to truely hit big numbers that a scrapper can hit.
The concept is frowned on a lot, and you will find almost all of the time if you try to build a scranker you will end up being bad in both tanking and damage departments since thats not how they were designed. As you can see from the above two posts, you can expect that a lot in game when you die since your expected to take hits in teams. Scrappers have a less demanding role of them and are free to deal damage where as tankers tend to have less freedom.
That being said, I have teamed with some half decent fire/fire scrankers before that didnt die after two hits, but I would never recommend one as a main tank. Ice tankers seem to do spectacularly badly in PvE unless there fully slotted out and there mainly for PvPers (or at least used to be) if you want damage though, stay away from stone primary and invul, the two best resist/defence sets and looks more into fire/shields.
As a secondary fire/super strength/energy are the biggest hitters in damage so one of those is best
Ive played just about every tank there is except electric to 50 now on union, and fire/fire was the best for aoe damage in teams, fire/energy best for single targets burst damage, and fire/ss for sustained single target damage. All of these builds lack more in defencive capabilty so expect to be called a bad tank until you get your slots in at least, its simply down to what your looking for.
The most effective tanker ive ever played on a whole though has been invul/ss, it still kicks out ok damage because of rage yet you have invuls resists, its biggest weakness is the psy hole it has but that can be (kind of) fixed with psy resist IO's anyway if it bothers you
The best thing to do if you plan on playing a scranker type charecter is to make use of both of your builds, have one thats designed for pure teaming, and one thats designed for damage. The way I worked this was make sure in the teaming build you ignore more of the single target attacks, take taunt and all your resist/defence powers and heals etc, basically making sure you can live for as long as possible. Then if your not in a situation where you need to be the main tanker, you can switch builds to the damaging one where you play more like a scrapper. Just make sure you inform the team this is what you are doing so they dont mistake you as a noob tank
lol
Before inventions and the reworking of IO set defense bonuses, I used to say that it's easier to add damage to a tanker than defense to a scrapper. Now, I think that's no longer the case.
With the right power sets (lots of AoE and something with a taunt aura) a scrapper can be built that can fulfil a meatshield role on 95% of the content. This is how I built my favorite scrappers and this is how I play them. I have tanked most of the game on them for full teams.
The advantages of tankers, like an autohit Taunt (I never take Provoke even on a tanking scrapper) and higher defense caps and hitpoints, only really come out in the archvillains of late game content. And here, there's not really a substitute for the tanker, so the tanker needs to build with an eye out for this role.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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I'm still waiting for Ice Melee scrapper and brutes. Or a blue side stone melee that isn't tanker. =O|
Originally Posted by Severe
the whole idea of a scranker burns me..if you dont want the values a tank gets you have a choice to be a brute or a scrapper which would be more the liking.
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Really, even if you don't like the idea, nobody owns it to you to play "your" way. This game is about customization and it's already easy enough. People should stop trying to force others to play there way.
From Heraclea:
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| And here, there's not really a substitute for the tanker, so the tanker needs to build with an eye out for this role. |
For the OP: Play the way you want to. Some people will shun you for making a scranker, but you're better of without playing them. They rank as much as people who absolutly need an attack-less "healorz".
Personnaly, i'd much rather play with a scranker then a tanker. =)
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
I normally play standard meatshield style tankers. My one scranker was FA/DM and I enjoyed playing him. Basically he was a good small team and solo tank, and with plenty of buffing could easily tank for large teams.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
Thank you all for your insight into this... I appreciate being enlightened to different viewpoints.
FireWyvern: Yes, you're right... I really don't play to cater to what others feel I should play. That being said, I also want to be team-helpful.
Whenever I'm team leader, I really am not that picky about the members...although I like to have a diversity of ATs. But I've had /kin or kin/ who don't have SB join my team. And while the other members are just laying into those kins, I really don't care. I guess I figure when I start paying their $15/month then I can tell them how to create their characters. As long as I see them using the powers they DO have (their heal, transference, etc.) then I see them participating. I want teammates who work for the team's good and are generally kind/respectful to each other. For me, it's more about fun than getting the beloved XP.
I think I'll stick with scrappers and build up their defense/resistance a bit. I've been toying with the idea of making an elec/elec scrapper. Perhaps I should put that idea to fruition.
Again, all of your feedback is appreciated! 
Satan trembles when he sees...
the weakest saint on his knees.
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In that case if you want a tanking scrapper, look for lots of aoe powers, since you dont have a multi target taunt, AoE attacks mean you wont have to use the pool power taunts unless you really want to.
SR and regen scrappers built properly can tank as well as any tanker ive seen in PvE, agro holding isnt an issue for tankers but thats your biggest problem with scrapper besides making sure you survive
SR is a pain to level but when you cap defence its very worth it
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Well...that's the thing. On my teams, a scranker is a lot more helpful to the team. =P
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Originally Posted by Soundtrack
FireWyvern: Yes, you're right... I really don't play to cater to what others feel I should play. That being said, I also want to be team-helpful.
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"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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Surviving them is not an issue. There's still no real substitute for autohit Taunt when you absolutely, positively, must hold aggro on the target. And Scrappers do not get that kind.
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Except scrappers? I think i remember some surviving AVs without any insps. One of them even survived 9 of them. So you really think a good scrapper with a decent build couldn't stand against 1-3 AVs with insps? Laughtable.
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Except some very rare case, like defense heavy AVs, you don't need auto-hit. And you never really have to "absolutly" hold aggro.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Surviving them is not an issue. There's still no real substitute for autohit Taunt when you absolutely, positively, must hold aggro on the target. And Scrappers do not get that kind.
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"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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Thats probably because you running very simple missions, STF with a scranker is hell...
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Well...that's the thing. On my teams, a scranker is a lot more helpful to the team. =P
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Thanks for clearing that up.
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Originally Posted by DarkEden
Thats what tankers do, they thank stuff.
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Then i guess every single thing is this game except STF is "very simple missions". Cause i never needed a tanker in anything else. Hell, i could probably do STF with a scranker, if i played more blueside. (Only one lvl 50 there, my blapper.)
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Originally Posted by Predatoric
Thats probably because you running very simple missions, STF with a scranker is hell...
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"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
If a scrapping tanker is a skranker, is a tanking scrapper a trapper?
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According to paragonwiki, both use the same term. =P|
Originally Posted by Psara
If a scrapping tanker is a skranker, is a tanking scrapper a trapper?
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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Scranker
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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MoG's paragon protectors was what told me you need an autohit taunt of some description, feeling impotent as they massacre squishies because I can't hit them is not fun.
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Except some very rare case, like defense heavy AVs, you don't need auto-hit. And you never really have to "absolutly" hold aggro.
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It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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Scrappers have autohit.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Surviving them is not an issue. There's still no real substitute for autohit Taunt when you absolutely, positively, must hold aggro on the target. And Scrappers do not get that kind.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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No, fortunately, you don't need a tanker for anything. I've tanked successful master runs of the ITF and Kahn on a scrapper that can hold aggro. It does, however, require a bit more practice and preparation than with the tanker, and Reichsman got away from me once or twice. |
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Cause i never needed a tanker in anything else. Hell, i could probably do STF with a scranker, if i played more blueside.
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Not sure I'd want to tank a STF on a scrapper, though. I'm sure it could be done. Some of the usual strategies would need to be modified. A scrapper might have some difficulty holding aggro on all four patrons at once; Mako would be a problem, because the scrapper has to hit him. The support would have to be even more on the ball for a scrapper tanking Recluse while the towers were still active.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Except scrappers? I think i remember some surviving AVs without any insps. One of them even survived 9 of them. So you really think a good scrapper with a decent build couldn't stand against 1-3 AVs with insps? Laughtable.
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Keeping 2 constantly aggroed has proven my limit (lvl 54s).
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Scrapper just needs confront and a well slotted confront can handle 2 of them as said.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Not sure I'd want to tank a STF on a scrapper, though. I'm sure it could be done. Some of the usual strategies would need to be modified. A scrapper might have some difficulty holding aggro on all four patrons at once; Mako would be a problem, because the scrapper has to hit him. The support would have to be even more on the ball for a scrapper tanking Recluse while the towers were still active.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
You don't NEED any AT for anything in this game. Controllers and Defenders are completely unnecessary to the best of players too.
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Then i guess every single thing is this game except STF is "very simple missions". Cause i never needed a tanker in anything else. Hell, i could probably do STF with a scranker, if i played more blueside. (Only one lvl 50 there, my blapper.)
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
(shrug) You can do the STF with no tankers OR scrappers. So what?|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Then i guess every single thing is this game except STF is "very simple missions". Cause i never needed a tanker in anything else. Hell, i could probably do STF with a scranker, if i played more blueside.
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To the OP: Scrankers are fine as long as they don't try to pass themselves off as a 'team tank'. I was on an STF where the leader assembled a 'classic' team - tank, damage, buffs, debuffs. We were about halfway through when I started wondering why the tank was so useless. I looked over his powers and saw he was missing some of the key defenses and didn't have Taunt. He volunteered to 'tank' the STF but was built as a scranker (he was kind of incompetent as a player also, which was a big part of the problem).
I've also teamed with scrankers who were clear about their build. They said they were a scranker, or that they weren't built to be a 'lead tank'. And that was no problem.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I have to agree nothing is "needed" though a few things are nice to have.
Here's my take on the whole scrapper/brute/tank thing.
The whole game is a balancing act between mitigation and dps.
In the current golden age of IOs willingness to invest time and (virtual) money in a build reduce the necessity of sacrifices. Making it more a choice of convenience.
A scrapper can build for damage cheapily and easily and thanks to AT modifiers can generate pain beyond what a tank can hope for. Building for godmode levels of mitigation without sacrificing damage take planning and an investment.
A tank will out survive a scrapper with minimal effort, and in some cases can achieve with SOs what a scrapper or brute is incapable of at any investment.
Building a tank for damage requires forethought and an investment but rarely if ever requires you to sacrifice durability or team support picks.
The choice boils down to personal preference. The vast majority of content you will face is spawns that contain a few bosses at worst. Hardly a real problem for either AT. Tier 9s and inspirations easily cover the rare fight where your skills and armor are lacking. A teamate or two covers the same holes.
For me personally, the tanks ability to manage aggro is its trump card. For other players that margin of extra damage at the top end of scrapper/brute performance is more important.
Choose what function has the larger impact on your enjoyment of the toon. Then patch the holes and push the envelope. I really don't think other player's expectations have anything to do with the choice unless of course they pay your sub for you.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
Hello all,
Tankers, however, have never been a spark for me.
I've been looking through some of the tank sets and I'm liking some possible combination of the sets. The thing is, I've never been able to fall in love with the role of meat shield when I team. I like to either help controlling the baddies while my teammates swipe at them, or debuffing them and/or buffing my teammates. I also like the pure damage of scrappers and blasters.
(Not to be misunderstood as my dislike of the AT... when I'm on a team with a good tanker, I'm just in awe...I truly admire what they can do! It's just not for me.)
That being said, I'm wondering what, exactly, is a "scranker". I've teamed with one who said that he basically took the tanker AT and slotted more for damage, etc. than for defense/resist.
Are "scrankers" frowned upon by teams?
Yes, I know I can get some of the same combinations as a scrapper, but I do like the higher base defense/resists of many tanker sets.
Just wanted to get the feel from you all about scrankers. I don't mean this to be a catalyst for a war/debate, but more of a "If I decide to roll up a scranker, will I be shunned by teams at worst, misunderstood I don't know my 'role' as a tanker at best" type question.
Thanks for any input you're willing to offer.
Have a great weekend!
Satan trembles when he sees...
the weakest saint on his knees.