Regarding Recent Changes to Architect
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2010-04-08 18:12 in Mission Architect
Quote:
I call it a myth because the statement isn't "its really hard to find developers capable of constraining exploiters" but rather "its impossible because exploiters will always overwhelm the devs." I cannot prove its a myth, but I'm very certain its related to that other game balance myth: its impossible to make a balanced game that isn't trivially homogenized or requires endless disruptive patching. Its difficult but not impossible, and there I'm absolutely certain because I can point to counter-examples. My two favorite examples are this and this. If they could do it, that means it can be done. And you can't argue that MMOs are more heavily bombarded by exploiters: Starcraft is played competitively for money.|
Originally Posted by RemianenI
I'd like to see that change but as I said, it's not a myth. It's fact, as far as I've seen.
|
The most recent major addition to the Architect is the new custom critter XP weight system. Its designed to curtail exploitive custom critter design while not imposing a particularly harsh penalty on authors that do not specifically attempt to make exploitive critters. It hasn't been tweaked much since it was released yet, and I haven't seen too many bug reports on it. Do you think it does accomplish those twin goals of curtailing exploit while leaving non-exploitive authors alone? If not, I would be curious to know in what way you think its flawed, and whether that flaw could be corrected or if you feel its an irreconcilable problem within the system that cannot be corrected. Is it simply impossible to build a custom critter construction system that doesn't either allow for exploitive critters or forces heavy penalties and disruptions on authors? Is it being exploited even as we speak and I'm just not aware of the particular ways in which it is being exploited?
If its not, and its possible to make small but complex powers and rewards systems that are at least reasonably balanced and do not require incessant tweaking and disruptive changes to the game to maintain, then it suggests that is possible to do on much larger scales with much larger game systems. Its just a matter of extending the methodology in the right way.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
It's kind of funny that I was just making this analogy and on my way to work this morning I passed someone pulled over in that same spot. Must not have been a local.|
Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
Some of what you said makes sense to me, but... so, putting up patches to stop exploits isn't the devs making themselves a "visible authority figure"? And I would point out that those cars are still driving along that highway, those drivers didn't stop using it, they conformed to what was expected of them by the authority figures, even when they didn't know for a fact they were being watched.
|
The drivers stop speeding out of fear. They know that if they're caught there will be consequences. The locals know this stretch of roadway is a targeted enforcement area because they have seen the troopers out there making examples of others who do it.
Paragon talked about punishments, but they didn't seem to follow through to any great extent, and, when they did, the incidents were too hush-hush to be an effective lesson to others. If they had been serious about it and wanted to make a lasting impression, then they would have needed to make a very public example of one or more of the worst exploiters. Nothing gets your message across quite like a good ol' fashioned hanging in the town square.
Admittedly, enforcement can get tricky. They hadn't published a firm set of rules, only made vague statements like "The MA is not intended for abherrant gameplay." To go the enforcement route, first you'd need to spell out the rules in no uncertain terms so that the ones being punished can be shown exactly what rule they broke and prevent them from playing the victim card. They would also do better to not make empty threats, which only serve to undermine authority.
I don't seriously see punishments becoming a major part of this game as Paragon seems to shy away from that, but it has been brought up in the past.
To continue following the analogy, the patches, on the other hand, would be like "fixing" the cars so that they will only go 55 MPH. People can't speed if the cars are mechanically prevented from speeding, right? (Except the devs do not have a gentle touch. Historically, their response to an abused feature is to cut it off at the knees, so they end up fixing the cars so they can only go 40 MPH, but that's another discussion.)
Then, let's say, your parent/spouse/loved one has a heart attack and you need to get them to the hospital. The hospital is many miles away and your car can only go 55 MPH. Are you willing to sacrifice your loved one just to prevent some people from speeding?
By the same token, I would not be willing to sacrifice the tools and features of the MA that make more interesting and enjoyable arcs possible through the introduction of unusual and atypical story elements just because those tools and features can be abused in some way. If the only kind of arcs we can make boil down to a series of Defeat all or Defeat boss missions, types of missions that are already plentiful in the game, and the other kinds of details are either removed or nerfed into uselessness, then there's not much point to making arcs.
In other words.....
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I'm just looking forward to the AE being an alternative method of leveling that is once again on par with the rest of the game (When used legitimately and when using the tools that make it more than "pile up the enemies and take them out").
|
Quote:
Okay, perhaps a more apropos statement would be 'it's extremely difficult to find developers capable of constraining exploiters for long periods of time with a very tight budget'. StarCraft, if I remember right, was redesigned from the ground up twice prior to launch, wasn't it? How many developers have that luxury? What was the old Blizzard line? "When will it be out?" "When it's ready." It's why I can't fault developers for releasing "too early". They have deadlines and benchmarks to hit, regardless of how "ready" the product is. Hell, I bought a lifetime sub to Champions when I truly didn't expect the game to be any good until THIS September (at the earliest).|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I call it a myth because the statement isn't "its really hard to find developers capable of constraining exploiters" but rather "its impossible because exploiters will always overwhelm the devs." I cannot prove its a myth, but I'm very certain its related to that other game balance myth: its impossible to make a balanced game that isn't trivially homogenized or requires endless disruptive patching. Its difficult but not impossible, and there I'm absolutely certain because I can point to counter-examples. My two favorite examples are this and this. If they could do it, that means it can be done. And you can't argue that MMOs are more heavily bombarded by exploiters: Starcraft is played competitively for money.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The most recent major addition to the Architect is the new custom critter XP weight system. Its designed to curtail exploitive custom critter design while not imposing a particularly harsh penalty on authors that do not specifically attempt to make exploitive critters. It hasn't been tweaked much since it was released yet, and I haven't seen too many bug reports on it. Do you think it does accomplish those twin goals of curtailing exploit while leaving non-exploitive authors alone? If not, I would be curious to know in what way you think its flawed, and whether that flaw could be corrected or if you feel its an irreconcilable problem within the system that cannot be corrected. Is it simply impossible to build a custom critter construction system that doesn't either allow for exploitive critters or forces heavy penalties and disruptions on authors? Is it being exploited even as we speak and I'm just not aware of the particular ways in which it is being exploited?
|
Realize, I'm not castigating the devs for the measures they've taken. They're probably doing the best they can given their resources and priorities. Knowing devs in both existing and forthcoming MMO titles helps to have that perspective. However, perhaps I'm jaded by that since knowing people in both camps (developer and exploiter), I can see how one is shackled (budget, benchmarks, focus/priority) while the other is fully free to pursue their goals. You're right, it's not impossible. Maybe just 'improbable' given the current "Get it out the door!" climate. I really don't know if the current system is exploitable and I'm afraid to ask around, honestly. But if it's not, that would be laudable though the feature's popularity may never recover to previous levels (which might not qualify as a 'win' if the method isn't universal). Besides, this would be one battle, war's not over. I don't know how you'd extrapolate MA's "fix" to say, GR (which is bound to be rife with holes, as many games and expansions tend to be). I'd like to see it (disruptive temporary fixes are annoying, after all) but it's one of those things that has to be seen before belief is accomplished for me.
@Remianen / @Remianen Too
Sig by RPVisions
Something else that may be worth consideration:
The debt/reward ratio in the AE is probably a lot closer to what the Devs want than the regular foes. I get the feeling that they actually would prefer the game overall to be a bit more difficult than it currently is.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
I'm currently designing my first new custom group since the i17 changes to the powers and rewards system and I have to say that it's not at all hard to make custom critters that are about the same difficulty as regular enemies, and still give 100% reward.|
Originally Posted by RemianenI
Making custom critters to exactly match those of 'stock' mobs isn't possible, is it? You have to make them a lot more difficult to reach the same level of reward (XP), don't you?
|
It's however quite easy to go overboard since you can't tell how much more than 100% your character is "worth". If you made something worth 150% it's probably going to be harder than something worth just 100%, and so on. Knowing how much the actual value is (while still capping everything at 100% of course) would be great.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Quote:
Plus the system is much more forgiving when it comes to designing minions and LTs, but when designing a Boss it can be difficult to get past 90% without resorting to some rather nasty and annoying powers, depending on the powersets chosen.
|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
I'm currently designing my first new custom group since the i17 changes to the powers and rewards system and I have to say that it's not at all hard to make custom critters that are about the same difficulty as regular enemies, and still give 100% reward.
It's however quite easy to go overboard since you can't tell how much more than 100% your character is "worth". If you made something worth 150% it's probably going to be harder than something worth just 100%, and so on. Knowing how much the actual value is (while still capping everything at 100% of course) would be great. |
Quote:
Yes, I've noticed that too. I'm spending a lot of time testing my bosses to make sure they are not impossible to defeat. I've still not managed to beat my Frostfire AV (as an EB) on my Spider but I haven't resorted to using inspirations yet, so he's probably ok...
|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
Plus the system is much more forgiving when it comes to designing minions and LTs, but when designing a Boss it can be difficult to get past 90% without resorting to some rather nasty and annoying powers, depending on the powersets chosen.
|
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Quote:
The boss/EB/AV requirements need to be tweaked downward a bit, I think. Still, it's way better than the old system, where it was impossible to get past 75% without some really nasty powers on most powersets, even at lower levels.
|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
Plus the system is much more forgiving when it comes to designing minions and LTs, but when designing a Boss it can be difficult to get past 90% without resorting to some rather nasty and annoying powers, depending on the powersets chosen.
|
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
Could you illustrate with a specific example? Say, the specific powersets you want the boss to have, the powers you think would bring the boss to the "correct" difficulty for about 100% XP, and what options are left that would make it problematic to cross the gap. Also: does this happen at all levels, or just a particular range of them (especially higher ones)? The system probably is a bit conservative at higher ranks and higher levels, but I'm curious to know if its conservative to the point of excess.
|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
Plus the system is much more forgiving when it comes to designing minions and LTs, but when designing a Boss it can be difficult to get past 90% without resorting to some rather nasty and annoying powers, depending on the powersets chosen.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Defense sets and melee sets are extremely bad about giving experience. In particular, if you have a boss with melee/defense, they have to be pretty much completely decked out to give 100% exp in the 50 range. I made several mixed enemies and my bosses have to have things like Knockout Blow to give full exp, and have nearly every toggle and auto in their defense set.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Could you illustrate with a specific example? Say, the specific powersets you want the boss to have, the powers you think would bring the boss to the "correct" difficulty for about 100% XP, and what options are left that would make it problematic to cross the gap. Also: does this happen at all levels, or just a particular range of them (especially higher ones)? The system probably is a bit conservative at higher ranks and higher levels, but I'm curious to know if its conservative to the point of excess.
|
I was able to get away with a Lieutenant who only has two attacks (both ST whip moves from DS), an auto (Temperature Protection), and Fiery Embrace, who gave 100% exp. But any bosses I tried to make with Summon/Defense had to have at least 2 pet summons in addition to all three attacks, and have all toggles and autos, and still might not hit 100%. I made a Bots/Invuln who was unstoppably powerful and I eventually scrapped him because any balance I did to keep him at 100% made him far too strong.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
I too am running into problems with bosses with defensive secondaries. Defensive sets don't give much of an XP increase unless you really pile them on, which makes for a tedious fight.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Testing:
Note that by 'minimum powers', I mean the minimum number of powers, not the 'least offensive' since that would be a subjective call. I chose Primaries in the order of Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter, Hack, Slash... but once I hit 100% I checked back to see if lower level powers would still put me over.
The Comparison is all secondary powers chosen, plus the mentioned primaries.
Obviously, the system values offense over defense (as it should, IMHO) and will not agree with all players on all possible combinations.
Please check me on these.
Melee Boss, Level 50
Secondary: Dark Armor (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 90%
Secondary: Electric Armor
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 100%
Secondary: Fiery Aura (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 95%
Secondary: Invulnerability (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 71%
Secondary: Regeneration (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 72%
Secondary: Shield Defense (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 72%
Secondary: Super Reflexes (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 77%
Secondary: Willpower (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 88%
IMPORTANT (?)
It seems like the system also tries to guess when you have a full attack chain and stops adding value for more melee powers at that point.
In case it matters, all powers were chosen under the Scrapper category.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I did this the opposite way.
Broadsword powers used: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives, Disembowel, Headsplitter. These powers on a level 50 boss give 71% XP. I can't get any more without adding Build Up.
With Dark Armor: Dark Embrace, Murky Cloud, Obsidian Shield, Oppressive Gloom, Cloak of Darkness = 83% XP. Death Shroud, Dark Regeneration and Soul Transfer do not add more XP.
With Electric Armor: Charged Armor = 100% XP. Compare Dark Embrace at 74% XP.
With Electric Armor: Power Sink = 75%. Despite Power Sink being far more devastating than Charged Armor.
With Electric Armor: Conductive Shield, Static Shield, Grounded, Lightning Reflexes, Conserve Power, Power Sink = 97%.
Lightning Field does not add more XP.
With Fire Armor: Fire Shield, Temperature Protection, Healing Flames, Plasma Shield, Rise of the Phoenix = 85% XP. Blazing Aura, Consume, and Burn do not add more XP. Note that RotP gives an XP bonus while Soul Transfer does not, despite RotP having only a mag 4 stun as opposed to Soul Transfer's Mag 30.
With Invulnerability: Everything but Unyielding and Unstoppable = 93% XP. Everything = 98% XP.
With Regeneration: Everything but Integration, Resilience and Instant Healing: 90% XP. Everything = 99% XP. Revive adds to XP.
With Shield Defense: Everything but Active Defense and One with the Shield: 90% XP. Everything = 99% XP.
Should a Broadsword boss with no significant ranged attacks or debuffs really give full XP at level 50? I don't know, maybe the devs don't want them to. That's fine. What isn't is the disparity between the difficulty the secondary powers add and how much they increase the XP.
Notably: Damage auras do not increase the XP, despite increasing the enemy's melee DPS.
Charged Armor has to be bugged.
Mez protection shields do not give significantly more XP than other shields.
Tier 9s do not give significantly more XP than other powers.
Power Sink only adds another 4% XP, despite how devastating instant end drain can be.
Dark Armor is seriously gimped in the XP department, with Oppressive Gloom barely giving anything, and Dark Regeneration and Soul Transfer giving nothing, despite the fact that Soul Transfer bypasses every powerset's mez protection.
Should defensive powers be worth as much as offensive ones? Definitely not. Do they make a boss significantly more difficult to defeat? They can, especially some of the ones listed, which give a negligible XP bonus. At this point we start getting into a time/reward equation instead of a risk/reward equation...which for some powersets (the ones relying on "kill it first") amounts to the same thing.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
I wonder if some of the powers that are giving 0% xp are doing so because they think they won't get activated because of how the AI works?
For instance "This is an attack power, but your attack chain is already full of attacks that will recharge faster, so this one won't ever queue" even if the power in question is a damage aura or the like.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Charged armor shows a Beta point value of .670 while the other defense powers like Fire Shield, Temp Invulnerability and so forth show .067.
Charged Armor should be showing the same 3.0 Alpha and .067 Beta like the others.
Quote:
Well I bugged it...and here I was thinking, "hmm, this SS/Elec boss I made gives full XP without KO Blow, nice." Oh well. *Adds KO Blow in anticipation of fix.*
|
Originally Posted by Star_Of_Africa
Charged armor shows a Beta point value of .670 while the other defense powers like Fire Shield, Temp Invulnerability and so forth show .067.
Charged Armor should be showing the same 3.0 Alpha and .067 Beta like the others. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
Great, there goes my SS/ElA Boss as well! I'm not adding KO Blow though because at level 50 she'll be annihilating players left and right.
|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Well I bugged it...and here I was thinking, "hmm, this SS/Elec boss I made gives full XP without KO Blow, nice." Oh well. *Adds KO Blow in anticipation of fix.*
|
Quote:
No power should give literally zero. I'll look into it.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
I wonder if some of the powers that are giving 0% xp are doing so because they think they won't get activated because of how the AI works?
|
As to the examples, it seems the commonality so far are melee bosses; bosses with melee offensive sets and defensive secondaries. Melee powers are significantly reduced in value due to them being potentially exploitable by ranged characters (that's why you have to have at least one ranged attack or XP caps at 40% no matter what you do). The "penalty" for being a melee attack is 40%, which is to say that given two attacks one of which is melee and the other ranged, if all other aspects are identical and the ranged attack is worth 100, the melee attack should be worth 60. That does make it hard to make a melee boss worth full XP, since even with the one ranged attack in the melee sets you still have to make up a lot of ground.
Question: what do you think would be more fair: try to increase the value of melee attacks in melee sets (which honestly might be difficult without opening other exploitability doors) or simply adding a second ranged attack in the melee sets which would allow players to add another higher value ranged attack on the boss while still avoiding the strongest melee attacks in the melee powersets if desired?
Here's the worry on melee/def bosses: players aren't required to take mez protection powers, so you could just immobilize them and hit them from range. So the system was designed to be conservative with melee powers, so they would not need to be constantly tweaked to adjust to players attempting to create exploitable bosses. But maybe its possible the numbers are slightly too conservative as a result.
The charged armor thing is a typo. Going to have to double check for those: let me know if any others turn up.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
I've mentioned numerous times I wish we had an extra pool of common powers to grab from. In the same way we can pick flight, it would be nice if there was an extra pool (a third set of powers if you will) that has random assorted ranged attacks. All the elemental blasts, Hurl and Hurl Boulder, shurikens, throwing knives, pistols, and any other random ranged powers.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Question: what do you think would be more fair: try to increase the value of melee attacks in melee sets (which honestly might be difficult without opening other exploitability doors) or simply adding a second ranged attack in the melee sets which would allow players to add another higher value ranged attack on the boss while still avoiding the strongest melee attacks in the melee powersets if desired?
|
Reason being, the powers given to the player for some melee sets just aren't always in-line. Not every martial artist throws shurikens, and forcing the player to take those powers can hamper creativity. Additionally, this could create a pool of powers that players can add to otherwise melee or defense oriented units (those being the hardest ones to get exp for) without having to abandon concept. For instance, a pretty standard unit type is SS/Inv; there are tons of these normally in the game, but actually making one of your own means having to make them obscenely strong. If there was a pool you could grab from and add an extra ranged attack or two, it could ease the pain.
Plus, I have an arc full of custom Trolls. I went out of my way to make sure some are melee/range (MA/AR for instance) so they'd have ranged attacks. But without sacrificing something their ranged options are severely limited. I'd happily add Hurl and/or Hurl Boulder as well as some pistol attacks and anything else to some of my units. Plus, I hate how my EM bosses shoot energy blasts and trolls with shurikens just seem silly.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
Quote:
I've taken to replacing defensive secondaries with Martial Arts, adding only Shuriken. If I'm going crazy, I'll add the first kick too. The result is getting closer to 100% without the need for K.O. Blow or full defensive powersets, and easier combat than when set to the pre-made "hard/hard" with a defensive secondary.| Question: what do you think would be more fair: try to increase the value of melee attacks in melee sets (which honestly might be difficult without opening other exploitability doors) or simply adding a second ranged attack in the melee sets which would allow players to add another higher value ranged attack on the boss while still avoiding the strongest melee attacks in the melee powersets if desired? |
It makes the start of combat slightly more dangerous (alpha remains the same, but there is a second wave of more of the same waiting if one doesn't close in fast), but it's otherwise easier to down them. What I'm not sure of is if that's actually a desirable effect, it's basically speeding up all combat, shifting more of the weight to alpha strikes, and making inspirations more powerful/useful (if combat is shorter, their relative duration is longer - until the ceiling when they cover all combat that is).
Of course, this is only a limited view from tweaking a single mid-level arc, I've not tested this extensively or in a wider variety of level ranges.
Players' Choice Awards: Best Dual-Origin Level Range Arc!
It's a new era, the era of the Mission Architect. Can you save the Universe from...
The Invasion of the Bikini-clad Samurai Vampiresses from Outer Space? - Arc ID 61013
I'll explain one of the main reasons that I like to use Electric Armor for some critters, especially for a boss: it's the power Grounded. It allows me to give a critter resistance to Knockback and Immobilization, two very cheap tactics for making otherwise tough foes insanely easy, without giving them protection against Holds and other mezzes that can make them into utter nightmares for squishy ATs.
I've asked repeatedly since issue 14 beta if we could get a set of options ( maybe at the first screen where we pick things like the critter rank, melee/ranged preference, Fly/No Fly) where we can select individual resistances to certain status effects. For example, Nemesis all have resistance to Fear but not to other mezz types so why can't I make a custom critter group who also have an innate resistance to Fear? Right now the only way would be to make them all Dark Armor or Willpower and give them the Mezz Protect toggle, which would have the collateral damage of also giving them insanely high protection against Holds and such on top of the innate 1-3 pts of protection that the critter has.
What I would like to see is something like a 3rd powerset of just passive powers where you can select resistance to: Immobilization, Hold, Slow Movement, Knockback, Fear, and Confusion. These would not be on the level of protection that, say Indomitable Will, would have. Just enough protection to require a double-stacking of the status effect for it to take effect, and maybe some resistance to reduce the time it would last so that stacking mezzes won't be too easy.
This way you could make critters who can be a bit more challenging to the player without being overly unfair to the non-melee ATs.
Quote:
The second ranged attack, for sure. An energy/lethal attack with no secondary effect that can be customized to look like various things (hurled bolt, hurled axe, hurled spell) would be really cool, IMHO.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Question: what do you think would be more fair: try to increase the value of melee attacks in melee sets (which honestly might be difficult without opening other exploitability doors) or simply adding a second ranged attack in the melee sets which would allow players to add another higher value ranged attack on the boss while still avoiding the strongest melee attacks in the melee powersets if desired?
|
I'll also 'vote' in favor of a 'ranged attack pool' for AE critters. More options (so long as they are balanced) is good.
An alternative way to handle the problem might be to make sure that melee critters have a way of reaching hover snipers (greater leap height, or even more movement power options that are set to activate when the critter gets 'frustrated' trying to reach a target).
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
I will have to look into that. For a long time my mainstay secondary has been Regeneration, if only because it can be used without giving your critter an annoying glow that isn't right for most concepts.
|
Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
I've taken to replacing defensive secondaries with Martial Arts, adding only Shuriken. If I'm going crazy, I'll add the first kick too. The result is getting closer to 100% without the need for K.O. Blow or full defensive powersets, and easier combat than when set to the pre-made "hard/hard" with a defensive secondary.
|
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
A second ranged attack, although for a lot of sets it would be difficult to find one that fits conceptually.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Question: what do you think would be more fair: try to increase the value of melee attacks in melee sets (which honestly might be difficult without opening other exploitability doors) or simply adding a second ranged attack in the melee sets which would allow players to add another higher value ranged attack on the boss while still avoiding the strongest melee attacks in the melee powersets if desired?
|
Quote:
| Here's the worry on melee/def bosses: players aren't required to take mez protection powers, so you could just immobilize them and hit them from range. So the system was designed to be conservative with melee powers, so they would not need to be constantly tweaked to adjust to players attempting to create exploitable bosses. But maybe its possible the numbers are slightly too conservative as a result. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Yes because 35 years of people pushing ever more annoying copy protection schemes that have lifetimes measured in minutes has proved nothing. /snark