Dual Blades on Tanks? Does it need help? Would reordering the attacks help?
By
Captain_Wacky,
Posted on: 2010-03-05 06:44 in Tankers
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I'd question by who. Agreed about Weaken, but Empower + SS does higher damage than BF + AV despite the bug ; it's also only consisted of quick animations, so you never get rooted too long (even on a tanker, that can be useful if you want to take aggro on something fast mid-fight). On the other hand, the DPE is worse than BF + AV, but that's inevitable, BF + AV has better DPE than anything else as the bonus damage from AV is free of charge.| Both Weaken and Empower are not considered good combo's late in the game. |
As for BF, skipping it kind of defeats the point of taking DB in my mind (speaking about performance). It's a great tohit and damage buff that fills nicely in any attack chain, what's not to like about it ?
I guess I just don't see where you're coming from as I've never understood the supposed need for getting as many combos as possible in DB or the Fighting pool.
Whatever the first power is in a Secondary, that Archetype will have to take that first power. I would like for them to reorder the Tanker Dual Blade Secondary Tier one in order to give us more options on which combos to take by moving Nimble Slash down in order and either moving up Ablating Strike or Blinding Feint.
The problem is that to get the two best combos, SWEEP and ATTACK VITALS you need to take 7 powers. Its 8 powers in order to get EMPOWER like you suggest.
In order to allow us more choices it would make sense to put Ablating Strike in the first position. Ablating Strike is used the most by the combos, 3 of 4.
Nimble Slash is only used in two combos.
Even Blinding Feint would be nicer in the first slot than Nimble Slash. Even though its only in one combo itself. The effect of added to hit and damage is nice for the fast activation time set and a set so focused on Accuracy to make three attacks hit in a row.
Dual Blades underperforms as an attack for Tankers. Period. I have my DB tanker at lvl 40 and it has been an excercise in frustration and patience. DB starts ok and goes downhill. Low lvl you can only make one combo. Higher lvls the enemies have much better D and you cannot make the combos due to misses.
DB is quick. DB is beautiful. DB is low on end. DB does very little damage due to lethal resistance. DB is barely up to par when you consistently make the combos. When you dont make combos it isnt even close. DB can be fixed very easily; any one attack in a combo can miss and the combo still takes effect.
P.S. the powerup is useless, it is such a small buff on a well resisted damage type, i dont bother, powerup should be made +20%.
I don't see Weaken as all that bad a deal --- at least not for tankers. Reducing incoming damage is a worthy goal, and that combo also applies its debuff on an attack that's a 360 PBAoE.
I am currently working on a DB tanker that's now 47. I plan on taking all the combos except Sweep. That said, DB probably works best on a relatively undemanding primary like Fire, Stone, or Dark Armor.
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Also, if you are looking to drop a combo in order to take fewer attacks, I would drop attack vitals. Hands down no question. Weaken and Sweep are great. The other two I rarely rarely use. Enough though I have taken every power in the set to try all the combos I may respec out of the attack vitals power (forgot atm which power it is).
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is caused by| Higher lvls the enemies have much better D and you cannot make the combos due to misses. |
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| P.S. the powerup is useless, it is such a small buff on a well resisted damage type, i dont bother, powerup should be made +20%. |
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| Dual Blades underperforms as an attack for Tankers. |
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| Also, if you are looking to drop a combo in order to take fewer attacks, I would drop attack vitals. |
I've played an Inv/DB tanker using only BF + AV and it was perfectly fine (ST and AoE damage, accuracy, endurance use). Not a topdog in any of these categories but great in all of them.
I'd be BF,AV combo powers + Taunt as a minimum with dual blades. Get a nice chain that's good on both ST and AoE. Other than it needs a fix in taunt I don't know what else needs doing, being that combos need to score a hit, I'd say it's designed to challenge the player. A pair up with Invuln is a good idea as Invincible gives good +tohit.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I don't know why you're feeling your tank is underperforming. My Ice/DB (50) was a fun ride from about lvl ~14 on up. For me, DB is a GREAT compliment to Ice Armor. The trick (for me) was gathering a mob around you (corner pulling is great) where you get the most leverage out of your AoEs/auras/Energy Absorption. Perhaps you won't be as quick at destroying a mob as other tanks, but you'll certainly keep their attention. |
Originally Posted by Talionis
I have a Ice/Dual Blades Tanker and it seems like its just not doing what I need. I know the combo is tight because both Cold and Dual Blades beg for a lot of power selections from primary and secondary. I'm starting to wish Nimble Blade was not the tier 1, I must select it power for Tanks. We are already tight enough almost having to take most of our Primary and the Fighting Pool to make us tough. Why saddle us with a useless power for our Tier 1? The two best combo's Sweeping Combo and Attack Vitals have no overlap, so that is six powers you are forced to take if you want both, seven since you have to take Nimble Blade as the Tier 1.
I'm wondering if other Tanks are liking Dual Blades. The skippable attacks in Dual Blades seem to be: Nimble Blade -- Even though we can't skip it because we are a Tank and its the first choice, I see it as skippable. Both Weaken and Empower are not considered good combo's late in the game. I would probably skip or respec out of it if I could. Power Slice -- If you don't want the sweeping combo. I think I want the Sweeping Combo for the mitigation, but wow is it making me take a lot of powers since there is no over lap with Attack Vitals. Ablating Strike & Vengeful Slice -- You could skip them, but then you wouldn't have Attack Vitals. Plus both attacks are good on their own right. I think I want both Attack Vitals and Sweeping Combo, but we'll have to see. Blinding Feint -- Initially this is one of the reasons I took Dual Blades. I wanted a little more accuracy in my build and the little damage buff. I like these better than build ups. However, being as tight as this build is? As much as I focus on getting good accuracy already outside this power not too miss my combos. As little extra damage as this provides, and as bad as Empower seems to be. I think I may drop this. Taunt -- I don't think I can take it. The build is too tight. With Cold at least I have two taunt auras. Typhoon's Edge, Sweeping Strike, and One-Thousand Cuts -- I am keeping them to get as much AoE damage as possible. But they also are all needed for Sweeping Combo and Attack Vitals. I think One-Thousand Cuts is the most skippable, which is sad since its the tier nine. But I've heard the damage to activation time is not good. Still it's needed for the Sweeping Combo. |
As to powers:
The Cabal and some AVs are the only examples I can think of that taunt was even needed. You can still tank very well without it in most situations.
As to Nimble Blade (and the corresponding combos), they are more useful in lower levels, true... but since you're stuck with it anyway, I don't see the big deal. I rarely use the power itself in a chain.
Blinding Feint + Attack Vitals is a VERY strong combo. I usually alternate between that attack chain and the Sweep combo (doable with decent recharge), which will whittle away at most mobs pretty well while keeping you reasonably safe.
That sorta my point. Tanks are usually very tight builds and Dual Blades can be tight as well since you may want to get many of the combos.
Since Tanks are the only Archetype forced to pick Nimble Slash as a first pick, you would think more thought would've gone into it. I think either Ablating Strike or Blinding Feint would be better at first tier and allow more flexibility for late toons to pick just the combos it wants.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
is caused by
and is because of If you pick a powerset then proceed to skip everything that's good about it, expect to be disappointed. Having a bad build doesn't mean the powerset itself is bad. What you've done would be comparable to playing Superstrength without Rage and Footstomp. I've played an Inv/DB tanker using only BF + AV and it was perfectly fine (ST and AoE damage, accuracy, endurance use). Not a topdog in any of these categories but great in all of them. |
Not really. You misunderstood all the research and thousands and thousands of attack chains i have tried to come to this solution. Sitting at lvl 40 i have ALL the powers in the DB set. Actually my attack chain is weaken combo then empower combo then one thousand cuts, which when done with no misses standing in front of 3 or more baddies tightly packed is absolutely GREAT. Reality is fighting +2lvl baddies with ~78% accuracy is rarely going to get you seven hits in a row. If on a team with tactics sure, but not normally. It is not that I have thrown out the best stuff without giving it a chance. I have tried everything. The set underperforms when you compare it to EM, Stone, Mace. I am still playing the set even though it is bad, because it is that beautiful. I have met scrappers in game that feel it is bad as well. Weaken and Sweep are great, unfortunately they share a power, so you need to have 2 diff chains. And attack vitals sucks.
I was under the impression that DB was designed for high average dps at the cost of damage spikes and I was further under the impression that it was very good at that, maybe even the highest average dps of the Tanker melee pools.
I will not rest until we have in-game throwable pies!
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If you're fighting +2s with 78% accuracy slotted, you're at the 95% CTH cap, tactics in this case will make no difference. The chance to get 7 hits in a row in that case is about 70%. To ruin the weaken combo, nimble slash or ablating strike must miss, which has a chance of about 10%. To ruin empower, you'd just have to miss one attack, which has a chance of about 14%. The chance that both combos will go off is is 77%, which isn't *that* bad. It's certainly not 'rare'.
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Originally Posted by dragonslay
Reality is fighting +2lvl baddies with ~78% accuracy is rarely going to get you seven hits in a row. If on a team with tactics sure, but not normally.
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@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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I'd really like to see your build, because pretty much all of your statements about Dual Blades do not match up with my WP/DB Tanker's experience playing 1-50 and then after. I found him to be a bit slower until the last three attacks, and then he really took off.|
Originally Posted by dragonslay
Not really. You misunderstood all the research and thousands and thousands of attack chains i have tried to come to this solution. Sitting at lvl 40 i have ALL the powers in the DB set. Actually my attack chain is weaken combo then empower combo then one thousand cuts, which when done with no misses standing in front of 3 or more baddies tightly packed is absolutely GREAT. Reality is fighting +2lvl baddies with ~78% accuracy is rarely going to get you seven hits in a row. If on a team with tactics sure, but not normally. It is not that I have thrown out the best stuff without giving it a chance. I have tried everything. The set underperforms when you compare it to EM, Stone, Mace. I am still playing the set even though it is bad, because it is that beautiful. I have met scrappers in game that feel it is bad as well. Weaken and Sweep are great, unfortunately they share a power, so you need to have 2 diff chains. And attack vitals sucks.
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Vengeful Slice rounded of his ST damage well, and then Sweeping Strike and 1K Cuts were gravy of fine AOE damage over that. SSK makes it even better for him, as he can slice up hordes of foes solo or teamed now, and Attack Vitals plus the Sweep combo are a big part of that. I pretty much use those when mobs come in on me, and bosses are really all that's left after those are used.
Sure, Lethal resistant mobs are more of a pain, but most sets in this game have some Lethal or Smashing in them. You roll with it.
Not sure what your accuracy could be, either... besides the accuracy I have in my powers, I also get a decent amount from bonuses. I haven't had my Tank miss much.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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The fact is you have a Dual Blades character that, by your own admission, doesn't perform well ; I have a Dual Blades character that performs well. From my point of view, the problem has to be with your build/playstyle.
| Not really. You misunderstood all the research and thousands and thousands of attack chains i have tried to come to this solution |
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So you disagree with the OP as well. Your DB tanker performed well without reordering any powers. So what was your attack chain? Do you have any set bonuses? (I do not.) Did you herd? Or taunt?
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
The fact is you have a Dual Blades character that, by your own admission, doesn't perform well ; I have a Dual Blades character that performs well. From my point of view, the problem has to be with your build/playstyle.
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Saying 'I've done lots of work' is not the same as showing your work. If you tell us that you've done thousands of hours of research proving that tankers have fewer hit points than blasters, we're going to look at you funny until you somehow convince us. What you've said here is essentially 'No, really.'
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Originally Posted by dragonslay
Not really. You misunderstood all the research and thousands and thousands of attack chains i have tried to come to this solution.
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Ok Grey Pilgrim, u asked to see my build, here it is. This is where im at. Powers were not necessarily taken in this order (but its close). Again I never said i dont like DB, I said it underperforms. Tell me what im doing wrong.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Lucifer's Childe: Level 42 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Dark Armor
Secondary Power Set: Dual Blades
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Dark Embrace
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (3) Resist Damage IO
- (3) Resist Damage IO
- (5) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Endurance
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (5) Accuracy IO
- (7) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (7) Accuracy IO
- (9) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (9) Accuracy IO
- (11) Damage Increase IO
- (11) Damage Increase IO
- (13) Damage Increase IO
- (13) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (15) Resist Damage IO
- (15) Resist Damage IO
- (17) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Endurance
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (17) Recharge Reduction IO
- (19) Miracle - Endurance/Recharge
- (19) Touch of the Nictus - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (21) Touch of the Nictus - Accuracy/Endurance/Heal/HitPoints/Regeneration
- (21) Touch of the Nictus - Heal/HitPoints/Regeneration/Recharge
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (23) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Jumping IO
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Healing IO
- (36) Healing IO
- (36) Healing IO
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
- (36) Endurance Modification IO
- (37) Endurance Modification IO
- (37) Empty
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (23) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Serendipity - Defense/Endurance
- (25) Serendipity - Defense
- (25) Defense Buff IO
- (29) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Nightmare - Endurance/Fear
- (27) Dampened Spirits - To Hit Debuff/Endurance
- (27) Nightmare - Accuracy/Endurance
- (29) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (31) Accuracy IO
- (31) Damage Increase IO
- (31) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (33) Accuracy IO
- (33) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (33) Accuracy IO
- (34) Damage Increase IO
- (34) Damage Increase IO
- (34) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (39) Accuracy IO
- (39) Damage Increase IO
- (39) Damage Increase IO
- (40) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Endurance
- (42) Resist Damage IO
- (42) Resist Damage IO
- (42) Endurance Reduction IO
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
That's your exact build for slots and power picks (even if they're slightly out of order)? Just checking, as it seems odd that you have a fourth slot in Stamina with nothing in it, a few powers aren't fully slotted for how far along you are, etc. I'm going to make my comments assuming it is, though.
If you are just going to stick with Regular IOs (no sets), then either put Stamina to three slots. There's a slot to put somewhere else that isn't needed there. And you need those slots elsewhere, as you have a lot of powers and attacks that aren't fully slotted. No wonder you don't like AV... you have Sweeping Strike slotted with one accuracy. It's one of your best attacks and a cone... slot that one up all the way! 2 acc, 3 dam, and give it an end or recharge, depending on what you need (or frankenslot to get more out of it if you don't want to go with a pure set).
You will have to hold off on slots for maybe some of the lighter attacks until you're higher up, but you can slot them all well. I took all the attacks on my DB, and I grabbed WP, which is a set that you want to pick a lot of and slot well also.
I'd say it is worth investing in -KB IO, just to dump Acrobatics. It takes up a power pick and is an end drain. Would let you get Murky Cloud sooner, too.
A couple things to remember... DB throws up a lot of little orange numbers, as hits often do 2-4 hits each, rather than one big one. Mace feels like it's doing more damage from one big number, but it adds up. Both mow down swathes of foes quite well.
Enough for now, but that's a start.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Well I worked on my DB tanker tonight trying hard to make the combos hit.
Not sure how much this will help the OP, but i'll add some thoughts that i hope will help him (and ME!). Maybe the DB set is not underperforming as much as i thought. I ran a nemesis door mish about 6/7 times solo fighting mobs of +1 - +3 of 3 to 5 critters per mob and i realized i may be looking for that big punch that the set doesnt have. It does well against multiple critters tightly packed. I have stopped and started on this charac so many times I think I got too involved in end maintanence and taunt management and never looked at my damage until very late and then said, WOW my damage is low.
I still dont feel as powerful as my /EM or /Stone (both lvl 50). I have said from the beginning, its quick, its beautiful, its low on end, it looks and acts less damaging than it is. I still hold to the fact that the combos are key. I tried weaken combo then empower then 1k cuts dozens and dozens of times and even fighting yellows with no debuffs and no vengence i rarely got all seven without a miss.
I am also still slotting up my attacks. As you can see. Ty Grey for taking a look. Yes i took murky cloud and sweeping very late. I realize i need a lot of rech in typhoons because that thing is great and necessary for combos often. I will definitely consider dropping acrobatics. As for stamina i have already purchased a 4 set of efficacy adaptor (lvl 50) that is just waiting to be slotted at 47.
I am going to keep working to make this build better. I still feel the DB set underperforms, but maybe tweaking the build and the playstyle will change that.
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That's what I've been telling you (among others). Dual Blades is a great set for AOE, and its ST damage isn't bad, either. It's just spread out over a lot of orange numbers. The end result is still a lot of lieutenants and minions falling fairly quickly. Bosses do take longer, of course, but that's the way it goes. Roll with that, or elect to not have bosses and more foes to take on. That's the great thing with SSK, you can set things up how you want them.|
Originally Posted by dragonslay
It does well against multiple critters tightly packed.
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| I still dont feel as powerful as my /EM or /Stone (both lvl 50). I have said from the beginning, its quick, its beautiful, its low on end, it looks and acts less damaging than it is. I still hold to the fact that the combos are key. I tried weaken combo then empower then 1k cuts dozens and dozens of times and even fighting yellows with no debuffs and no vengence i rarely got all seven without a miss. |
I do agree that the combos do a lot for Dual Blades, as they should. Weaken and Empower can be helpful for tanks, and Sweep and AV add to your damage and mitigation (nothing like knocking down a swath of enemies at once).
Other sets are going to have their strong points, of course. Don't expect Dual Blades to outdo them all. Overall, Dual Blades is much better than Energy Melee, though it is weaker for ST damage (I'll take that for the mass of AOE damage you can do). All the numbers I have seen the crunchers put out there make Dual Blades solidly in the pack with the other sets, and personal experience has confirmed that.
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| I am also still slotting up my attacks. As you can see. Ty Grey for taking a look. Yes i took murky cloud and sweeping very late. I realize i need a lot of rech in typhoons because that thing is great and necessary for combos often. I will definitely consider dropping acrobatics. As for stamina i have already purchased a 4 set of efficacy adaptor (lvl 50) that is just waiting to be slotted at 47. |
I don't know too much about Cloak of Darkness, but I would make do with fewer slots in there so you can get your attacks more slotted up, and the same with your other shields. Later on some of these lesser things like Nimble Slash and Cloak of Darkness can get slotted up, but they can wait. Prioritizing your slots is a good idea in any build.
If you want, you can take a look at the guide in my sig. Yes, it's for Fiery Aura, but I discuss enhancements in there, and some of the methodology I'm referring to is in there.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I'm not complaining whole sale about the performance so much as the fact I have to take Nimble Slice at tier 1. I don't really want the power and I don't need it for a combo I want. And it blows that it is so tight.
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That's the feeling for a lot of Tier 1 attacks for Tankers. They're usually going to be used and useful fairly often, though. I don't slot up Scorch too heavily on my Fire/Fire, for instance, but I still use it plenty, especially when I exemp down.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
I'm not complaining whole sale about the performance so much as the fact I have to take Nimble Slice at tier 1. I don't really want the power and I don't need it for a combo I want. And it blows that it is so tight.
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I would argue that you should reconsider Weaken a bit. That is actually a useful combo for when you get in over your head, and also makes it easier for a big chunk of foes to hit. Depending on your team, doing that may be more useful than Attack Vitals or Sweep, actually.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
Actually, I was trying to focus on the Sweep Combo for the knockup control that it would give. Weaken won't help me much since I'll already have close to softcap if not soft capped .|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
That's the feeling for a lot of Tier 1 attacks for Tankers. They're usually going to be used and useful fairly often, though. I don't slot up Scorch too heavily on my Fire/Fire, for instance, but I still use it plenty, especially when I exemp down.
I would argue that you should reconsider Weaken a bit. That is actually a useful combo for when you get in over your head, and also makes it easier for a big chunk of foes to hit. Depending on your team, doing that may be more useful than Attack Vitals or Sweep, actually. |
But the thing about Dual Blades is that it takes three powers to make one of your powers work. So it feels even less forgiving.
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Me, I <3 Scorch. It's my backup taunt.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I don't slot up Scorch too heavily on my Fire/Fire, for instance, but I still use it plenty, especially when I exemp down.
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I have a Ice/Dual Blades Tanker and it seems like its just not doing what I need. I know the combo is tight because both Cold and Dual Blades beg for a lot of power selections from primary and secondary. I'm starting to wish Nimble Blade was not the tier 1, I must select it power for Tanks. We are already tight enough almost having to take most of our Primary and the Fighting Pool to make us tough. Why saddle us with a useless power for our Tier 1? The two best combo's Sweeping Combo and Attack Vitals have no overlap, so that is six powers you are forced to take if you want both, seven since you have to take Nimble Blade as the Tier 1.
I'm wondering if other Tanks are liking Dual Blades.
The skippable attacks in Dual Blades seem to be:
Nimble Blade -- Even though we can't skip it because we are a Tank and its the first choice, I see it as skippable. Both Weaken and Empower are not considered good combo's late in the game. I would probably skip or respec out of it if I could.
Power Slice -- If you don't want the sweeping combo. I think I want the Sweeping Combo for the mitigation, but wow is it making me take a lot of powers since there is no over lap with Attack Vitals.
Ablating Strike & Vengeful Slice -- You could skip them, but then you wouldn't have Attack Vitals. Plus both attacks are good on their own right. I think I want both Attack Vitals and Sweeping Combo, but we'll have to see.
Blinding Feint -- Initially this is one of the reasons I took Dual Blades. I wanted a little more accuracy in my build and the little damage buff. I like these better than build ups. However, being as tight as this build is? As much as I focus on getting good accuracy already outside this power not too miss my combos. As little extra damage as this provides, and as bad as Empower seems to be. I think I may drop this.
Taunt -- I don't think I can take it. The build is too tight. With Cold at least I have two taunt auras.
Typhoon's Edge, Sweeping Strike, and One-Thousand Cuts -- I am keeping them to get as much AoE damage as possible. But they also are all needed for Sweeping Combo and Attack Vitals. I think One-Thousand Cuts is the most skippable, which is sad since its the tier nine. But I've heard the damage to activation time is not good. Still it's needed for the Sweeping Combo.