New AT blast/defense

With the advent of Dual Pistols, I am sure some yearn to make a matrix-like Dual Piston/Super Reflexes. But you can't.

What about an AT, let's call it a Tank-Mage (tm) that allows blaster sets (blaster/corruptor primaries; defender secondary) and defense secondaries (Tank primary; scrapper, brute, stalker secondary).

For balance I would probably go with corruptor modifiers (but without scourge) and probably scrapper modifiers for the defense set.

Not sure what the inherent would be, but would lean toward some type of survival buff rather than a damage boost (like scourge, fury, crit boost, etc). The specific power lists might have to be tweaked as well.

So, less damage than a melee AT, but you get range. Over-powered?

Not necessarily overpowered, but like the other popular suggestion (an Assault/Armor AT) it would be tricky to balance without having it overshadow one of the other ATs.

The core problem (IMO) is balancing it on teams. The Damage dealing ATs (Blaster, Scrapper, Stalker, Brute, Dominator to some degree) all deal superior damage themselves but provide little or no benefit to teammates (besides killing things faster). The Support ATs (Tanker, Defender, Controller, Corruptor, Dominator to some degree) all sacrifice personal power for the ability to increase their teammates power or suvivability.

A Blast/Armor AT runs into the problem that it is a Damage Dealing AT and as such needs high modifiers to be useful on a team but conversely they need to not overshadow the other damage dealing ATs. A Blast/Armor AT with Corruptor level damage would be a horrible addition to most teams. Adding a Blaster or Scrapper gives you more raw damage and adding a Corruptor gives you buffs/debuffs.

I'm not saying that it can't be balanced but I don't think the solution is lower damage. My suggestion would be to give it damage a little lower than Blasters and defense values that are quite a bit lower than Scrappers. Essentially you get a Blaster with a lower damage output (due to a lack of Build Up and the melee attacks) but who has passive defenses instead of active ones. Epic pools should probably be a mix of melee attacks and controls. I don't know if that would be balanced or not (or even if it would be fun to play) but it's what I would use as a starting point.

Additionally I think that the defense sets would need to be tweaked. The taunt auras in some sets would be pointless for a ranged AT and the damage auras only marginally less so (Blasters get damage auras, but they aren't very popular).

I just don't see the point at all. In team play, if you're ranged, why do you need all those defenses? It might be good for soloing, but it just seems... not good overall.

Actually I think you just hit the big draw for this: soloing.

The problem here is that it's actually either a massive replacement for the scrapper or a weak shadow of a scrappper. The only difference between ranged attacks and melee attacks is that ranged attacks have range. At 7' they're the same. At 20' the melee attacks are useless. Therefore the ranged attacks trump. The secondaries are the same as scraps. The only differences between a scrapper and this AT would be that this one has the advantage of range and any power levels.

That means if the damage/defense was roughly equal or slightly lower this AT would replace the scrapper. If the damage/defense was quite a bit lower then this AT would be useless.

In order to determine viable ATs, one has to look not at the specifics of anticipated power sets, but instead at the purpose of the sets. There are really only 4 purposes of sets: Damage, Defense, Control, Multipliers. Right now Tanks and Scraps are only seperated by the power levels of their Damage and Defense (Health points are part of defense, really). The same goes for Stalkers and Brutes. When GR hits, the overlaps are going to also include Defenders and Corruptors as well as the Stalker/Brute/Tank/Scrap problem. Throwing another Damage/Defense into the mix is really going to make a bad thing worse.

If any new ATs do come into being I suggest you watch for new combinations of those four basic power types. Right now we have a ton of Damage/Defense, three Multiplier/Damage (Def/Cor/MM), one Control/Multiplier, one Control/Damage, and a Damage/Damage (which to my mind is kind of silly, really).

What we don't have is Defense/Control (might not suck), Defense/Multiplier (would be impossible to solo and mostly worthless on a team), and the other three duplicates of Defense/Defense (even worse than Defense/Multiplier), Control/Control (way overpowered, really), and Multiplier/Multipler (either way underpowered or way overpowered depending on the situation).

I'd probably play a Defense/Control, but none of the other options really make sense. Without a massive level of theme/concept/inherent uniqueness, no copy of what's already available is going to be feasible.

My thoughts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha ...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...

Against.
I'd much rather see a shape-shifting AT before this kind of hybrid AT - which would be hard to balance.

I think that by calling it Tank-mage - you have hit the nail on the head. No and double no.

Sounds like another Tanks need to do more damage ploy to me. Nice work-around to imply scrapper secondaries to begin with and then shift to the tanks/brutes - even with the archetype name.

A while back, I posted an idea for a dual pistol set for scrappers. The range is limited to normal melee range for the attacks and includes pistol whipping and butt-smashes along with point blank shots.
Though this idea was partially a joke, as long as the range isn't better than normal melee attack sets, I see no reason for a not using Pistols as a focus. This would allow characters to have DP/SR and still not be overly powerful.
This would be in line with Electric, Ice, and Fire attack sets that are already available to Scrappers - which give the SFX but don't add range to the attacks.

DP's for Tanks and brutes is just silly as far as I'm concerned. I could see a Stalker DP set along the same lines as the scrapper set.

I'm still half joking about the DP scrappers, but I'm seriously against these so-called Tank-mages that get Range/DEF/RES.

Sounds a bit like an SoA to me, with the toggle buffs, some innate mez resistance and the ability to go melee or ranged.

I've always been FOR this idea. We have a couple of ATs in the game right now that have access to both melee and ranged attacks, and neither of them has any reason to STAY in melee for more than the time it takes to throw out a punch or two. I'm fully convinced that an AT like this could work and work well if it had an inherent which emphasised moving between melee and range combat and not just falling asleep in one particular stance.

Both Blasters and Dominators are ranged fighters with some melee attacks in their arsenal, but neither is really encouraged to stand and fight like a Scrapper would. And I firmly believe that an AT which is would be a good thing to have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

For me, it always comes down to what our enemies are able to do. I realise enemies cheat and that they have to to make up for their lower IQ, but really now. When I see a Behemoth using a combination of Fire Blast, Fiery Melee and Fiery Aura, it just makes me go WANT! They really only have a couple of blasts, a couple of strikes and, like, one defence power, but the concept itself is great!

Really, whenever I suggest a Ranged/Defence or Assault/Defence AT, that's what I'm going for - the cool factor of having melee, ranged and defence powers. If you really need another example, look at your average Ballista: He has access to Energy Blast, Energy Melee and Forcefields powers. I just know it looks cool.

*edit*
Alternately, why not open up Epics earlier? Say, 30. That'd give us a third element and more functionality before getting to the point where the game is already practically over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I suggest a new type of set. In the same vein as Manipulation and Assault sets, I'd be up for a kind of 'Survival' set. A mix of self-protection powers and buffs.

So rather than blast/defense, how about blast/survival (and the reason I'm suggesting this at all, melee/survival). This would automatically limit the relative survival compared to Scrappers and Stalkers as some (half?) of the powers are replaced with ally buffs/foe debuffs and therefore, wouldn't need to sacrifice its damage potential nor directly infringe on the role of ranged dmg dealers (as it has its own niche).

Would it replace corruptors/defenders? No, because some (half?) of the force multiplier powers are replaced with self-protection!

Erm... I honestly wouldn't call a set with ally-only buffs "Survival," myself. I don't necessarily mind the idea, of course, it's just not my thing.

However, I wouldn't be against a set that was a combination of melee and direct shields, actually. Think of like what Kheldians get - a few shields that can be put into the same toggle, a heal and the rest is utility powers. I know that putting melee powers in it would kind of ruin the point you were trying to make about melee/survival, and I apologise for this.

Basically, as things are right now, a decent ranged/defence character would seem to be a character with a combo ranged/melee primary and a secondary that provides limited survival and possibly some extra damage. As I had it in my old suggestion, the primary was an Assault clone which focused largely on single-target damage and the secondary added self-protection and AoE damage of some magnitude, as Assault sets lack AoE for the most part.

The reason I tend to look at Blasters for this is because Blaster Manipulation sets are just filled with questionable powers, as though they ran out of ideas and made every Manipulation set just a grab bag of whatever they had lying around. So we get odd things like Burn and Smoke grenade, yet not the slightly less odd things like Fire Shield or Body Armour.

To give an example, an Energy/Energy such character would probably look like an Energy Assault primary, but without Sniper Blast and probably with Build Up instead of Power Boost, and retain Explosive Blast, Energy Torrent, Temp Invulnerability, Personal Forcefield and probably another bubble or something in that vein. I actually had a full writeup, but I've lost it since.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Not sure if this was brought up but what about...

Defender damage.
Scrapper defense.
Lowest Hit Points.
25% shorter range than Blasters.

...and possibly a Taunt component in all the attacks.

Would that be unbalanced?

I don't think a power that acts as a break free once every 90 seconds would be used. Build Up/Aim have the equivalent of about four inspirations, and they're always useful. in every situation ever. If I didn't expect to use one more than every minute, I'd just... carry break frees. A power like that would need to do something more useful than that.




From what I'm looking at, these power ideas just seem... Not good. The purpose of the Assault/Manipulation set, from what I can tell, is to get more damage out of a primarily ranged character at increased risk. Or, in Assault's case, once you've shut down the risk. Pairing it with a random pile of random is, well... You're making an EAT, one of those classes that supposedly does a bit of everything but excels at nothing. This isn't inherently bad as a standalone, but where does it fit in a party? I honestly can't tell at all what this AT is trying to do or be.

Most ATs have a primary that does their thing, and a secondary that supports them and either a) makes doing their thing possible or b) adds damage because their thing isn't DPS.
Scrappers, Stalkers, Brutes, and Masterminds have a secondary that just makes it possible to do what their primaries want them to do, while Defenders, Dominators, and Tankers get more damage. Blasters get more damage because their thing is DPS. Corruptors and Controllers are different, yes, in that they're the most 'balanced' between primary and secondary of any ATs: while you might begrudge any of the other ATs for taking too much secondary and not enough primary, Corruptors and Controllers can get away with it because their secondaries are almost as good as their primaries.

Now with this AT you're showing me here, it looks like you've got some sort of weird blend between scrapper and corruptor. Its primary is clearly DPS of the single target variety because you gave it no Area of Effect attacks in its primary, so we should assume its purpose is to be something like a scrapper, picking an enemy and hounding it till its dead. But then its secondary includes more attacks and only defense powers. This means it's doing the following...

-When enemy threat is high, its staying back, using its defense powers and distance to keep it alive. It's only using about half its attack powers, and is thus being less effective than any of the other ranged DPS classes.

-When enemy threat is low, its moving in. It's now in melee without all the good melee options, making it worse than any of the melee DPS classes.

Except you've gone and put AoE attacks into its secondary... Ranged AoEs. This is supposed to... boost its damage, I presume? If anything, it just gives it more of a reason to avoid melee. This AT is, well... You've just recreated a Blapper, but with less damage and more survivability. And without the nuke. It's better than a Blaster solo, perhaps, but on a team, it's pretty bad. Now, if your goal is a blend of DPS and keeping your allies alive... That's a Corruptor. Assault/Survival just seems like a bad way of saying Blast/Buff



Long story short: Please set out a mission statement for this AT in two sentences, one saying what the primary does and one saying why the secondary is a good fit. For example.

"The scrapper's purposes is to deal heavy melee damage. A defense set secondary allows it to survive in melee longer than most ATs."

"The Masterminds purpose is to summon many pets to fight foes and disperse aggro. A buff/debuff secondary set allows it to keep these pets alive effectively."

Lemme see if I understand this "survival" concept (regardless of name). As Assault is ranged/melee damage, this would be personal/team defense? I love the idea of adding personal defense to a team defense set and having it coupled with an assault-style set would definitely make the AT very rounded and thematically easy to play, but where's the weakness? Being too well-rounded makes it difficult to find a reason to play anything else. In this case there would be a ton of these, some controllers and some masterminds running around, and everyone else would be playing others based on simple personal preference for the concept.

Then again, it's already that way between tanks/scraps/brutes/stalkers. This kind of AT would not really replace the tank/scrap because it would be too personally fragile but could certainly support them, while it also wouldn't replace defenders because it wouldn't be as good or versatile on a team, but again it could certainly support them.

I'll be damned, you've come up with an AT suggestion I'd actually support, assuming the right theme/inherent.

Towards that end, I'd recommend a strong leaning towards support along the conceptual lines of the peacebringer/warshade: this AT fills in weakspots and bolsters strengths of their team. Calling it a Coordinator seems kinda lame, but whatever. An appropriate inherent might be called "Survival" and give them perhaps a different bonus based on the team makeup.

Or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha ...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...