Elec/Shield, Scrapper or Brute?
By
Bunkdog,
Posted on: 2010-02-10 21:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Elec/SD is a very strong AoE build and its much better for Scrapper than for Brutes. This is because Against All Odds (the aggro aura) buffs base damage and Brute base damage is very low, Scrapper base damage is very high. Score 1 for Scrappers.
The second factor is that Shield Charge and Lightning Rod are somewhat weird attacks in that they actually summon a pseudopet that does all the KD/damage. Pets have a lower damage cap than Brutes, the result of which is that with normal damage slotting, Fury and BU they hit the pet damage cap.
Which is all fine and dandy, except the advantage of a Brute is their stupidly high damage cap. Which SC/LR cannot take advantage of. Score 2 to Scrappers.
As for best ST damage between Scrappers and Brutes, well, that's a lot trickier. If you're looking at burst damage right from the outset a Scrapper will win (assuming good ST damage Scrapper set vs good ST damage Brute set) because the Brute needs to build up Fury to do comparable damage.
For bosskilling, Scrappers are generally better because of powers critting more often on critters of higher rank.
Hope that helps.
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For Elec/Shield, the Scrapper trumps all. Elec/* utilizes pseudo-pets to accomplish some of its weirder abilities (CI and LR) which means that the Scrapper has a definite advantage there, for the reasons Silas described. Softcapping will provide a vast majority your survivability, so the only survivability difference is generated by hit point differences, which are more than overcome by the greater damage that the Scrapper is going to deal.
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Originally Posted by Cynergyspyke
A Scrapper, or a Brute?
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I have one of each and I prefer the scrapper - great defense, but outstanding offense!
Hmmm.....flip a coin and you'll end up with one you like.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I have the scrapper version IO'd on Justice if you ever want to see him in action. He's soft capped on defense and both charges are up for each mob in a farm. Add a /kin = xtra juicyness. Although, he is pretty awesome solo. Soft capped will allow you to stand in the middle of 2 0x8 mobs and health bar not move. +1's barely touch you, BUT if they do you'll know it. I can solo +4x8 w/o bosses easily. If the Brute is better, i want one. 
Shield Charge on a scrapper is a mini nuke, on a Brute it's just tasty.
(PROTIP: Go scrapper)
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Why do many people refer to it as a "mini nuke"? Is it refering to a blasters nuke? If so, i think it does just as much damage. I can easily drop everyone in a 0x8 mob with 1 SC. To me, that's not mini. lol.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Fallstar
Shield Charge on a scrapper is a mini nuke, on a Brute it's just tasty.
(PROTIP: Go scrapper) |
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Less radius.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
Why do many people refer to it as a "mini nuke"? Is it refering to a blasters nuke? If so, i think it does just as much damage. I can easily drop everyone in a 0x8 mob with 1 SC. To me, that's not mini. lol.
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Comparing Shield Charge to the weakest of the "true nukes" (i.e. not crashless), Thunderous Blast, Shield Charge for a Scrapper deals 200.2 smashing damage over a 20' radius spread while Thunderous Blast deals 265.88 energy and smashing damage (62.56 smashing, 125.12 energy, 75% chance for 62.56, 50% chance for 62.56) over a 25' radius. The true nukes are still a good deal stronger, but SC is pretty up there. It's, honestly, more appropriate to compare it to a blaster mini-nuke (i.e. crashless), like Rain of Arrows, that deals 225.21 lethal damage over a 25' radius area. The comparison still prefers the Blaster nuke, but, considering that Shield Charge is in a Scrapper defensive set, it should probably be a bit more preferential towards the Blaster nukes.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
Why do many people refer to it as a "mini nuke"? Is it refering to a blasters nuke? If so, i think it does just as much damage. I can easily drop everyone in a 0x8 mob with 1 SC. To me, that's not mini. lol.
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thanks for the tips guys. I made the scrapper and so far I'm wow'd at the damage I can do with Elec Melee on my scrapper. I have an Elec/Elec brute but it's not like this!
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Comparing Shield Charge to the weakest of the "true nukes" (i.e. not crashless), Thunderous Blast, Shield Charge for a Scrapper deals 200.2 smashing damage over a 20' radius spread while Thunderous Blast deals 265.88 energy and smashing damage (62.56 smashing, 125.12 energy, 75% chance for 62.56, 50% chance for 62.56) over a 25' radius. The true nukes are still a good deal stronger, but SC is pretty up there. It's, honestly, more appropriate to compare it to a blaster mini-nuke (i.e. crashless), like Rain of Arrows, that deals 225.21 lethal damage over a 25' radius area. The comparison still prefers the Blaster nuke, but, considering that Shield Charge is in a Scrapper defensive set, it should probably be a bit more preferential towards the Blaster nukes.
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I still say mine does as much damage as a blaster. I'll test on wifes inferno. Both are fully IO'd. The radius may be smaller but once i agro them to me i can hit them all anyways.
Even in the defensive set, it still does more damage than LR in the primary. I can tell by how many fall dead per mob when i switch which charge i lead with.
Just going by numbers, with AAO and Melt Armor i'm dealing upwards of 700-800 hps with SC. Without Melt Armor it runs in the 600-700 range. Not sure about Inferno (which is what wife has), plus it's up alot more often the blaster nukes. Wifes is up every 3rd mob or so. SC is up every mob. Cept RoA. Mines up every 16 sec or so, so it may compare with SC.
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At level 50, Blaster Inferno does 304.98 damage base (62.56 smash, 125.12 fire, 50% chance for 93.84 fire, 75% chance for 93.84 fire). Shield Charge doesn't even compare with its 200.2 base damage. Keep in mind that, when you're looking at the power itself, you shouldn't be factoring in contributions from things like AAO. When analyzing the set as a whole, it's useful, but when comparing powers 1-to-1, it's not really appropriate.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
I still say mine does as much damage as a blaster. I'll test on wifes inferno. Both are fully IO'd. The radius may be smaller but once i agro them to me i can hit them all anyways.
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| Even in the defensive set, it still does more damage than LR in the primary. I can tell by how many fall dead per mob when i switch which charge i lead with. |
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| Just going by numbers, with AAO and Melt Armor i'm dealing upwards of 700-800 hps with SC. Without Melt Armor it runs in the 600-700 range. |
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| Not sure about Inferno (which is what wife has), plus it's up alot more often the blaster nukes. Wifes is up every 3rd mob or so. SC is up every mob. Cept RoA. Mines up every 16 sec or so, so it may compare with SC. |
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Originally Posted by Umbral
At level 50, Blaster Inferno does 304.98 damage base (62.56 smash, 125.12 fire, 50% chance for 93.84 fire, 75% chance for 93.84 fire). Shield Charge doesn't even compare with its 200.2 base damage. Keep in mind that, when you're looking at the power itself, you shouldn't be factoring in contributions from things like AAO. When analyzing the set as a whole, it's useful, but when comparing powers 1-to-1, it's not really appropriate.
LR and Shield Charge do the exact same amount of damage. The difference between the two that makes Shield Charge better is that Shield Charge applies all of the damage to the entire area whereas Lightning Rod applies the damage in concentric circles, with only a small area around the point of origin actually experience the full damage. Honestly, I point this out as all the more reason why Shield Charge is too strong: when a defense powerset has a better attack than a primary, you know something is wrong. I'm curious how you're getting 300-350% base damage with Shield Charge. Slotting would cover 95%. Saturated AAO will give you another 81.25%. Toss in BU as well for another 100% +dam, and you're still going to be short about 25% +dam to even achieve the lowest damage you're listing (which I guess could be covered with +dam set bonuses). Keep in mind, of course, that the disparity you're mentioning between Melt Armor up and down is also too large because Melt Armor only provides 9.75% -res, so you'd see roughly 660 damage. Which is exactly why it's called a "mini-nuke" and not a "nuke". RoA and Full Auto aren't generally referred to as nukes because they're crashless and up a lot more. |
I'm not sure if you're doubting my numbers but i'd be pleased to show you on Justice if you want to see him. I'm getting more than 660, i promise. I can hit in the 700-800 range solo. With FS, i can go upwards of 1000hp.
Also, i do factor in AAO because it's a used power. Why count base numbers when AAO is gonna be used? In a large mob, i've seen my damage meter jump to 200%.
Like i said, head to Justice anytime you want to see that i'm not lieing.
LR is a weird power. I say it's weaker because when i hit a mob with SC and all but 1 or 2 fall, then when i hit a mob with LR and only half fall then it don't feel the same. Yes, i know to hit from within the mobs for more damage, i stand in the middle for 10-15 seconds sometimes just watching them miss me cause he's soft capped. lol.
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I doubt that you're hitting more than 660 solo. I can easily understand hitting 1000 with FS on your because the scrapper +dam cap is 400%, and 200 * (1+4) = 1000. That number actually makes sense. You other numbers don't grok with the math, however.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
I'm not sure if you're doubting my numbers but i'd be pleased to show you on Justice if you want to see him. I'm getting more than 660, i promise. I can hit in the 700-800 range solo. With FS, i can go upwards of 1000hp.
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| Also, i do factor in AAO because it's a used power. Why count base numbers when AAO is gonna be used? |
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| In a large mob, i've seen my damage meter jump to 200%. |
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| LR is a weird power. I say it's weaker because when i hit a mob with SC and all but 1 or 2 fall, then when i hit a mob with LR and only half fall then it don't feel the same. Yes, i know to hit from within the mobs for more damage, i stand in the middle for 10-15 seconds sometimes just watching them miss me cause he's soft capped. lol. |
Har, if he wants to compare the damage of saturated AAO Shield Charge to BU+Aim boosted Inferno, I say we let him. :3
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I don't doubt what you're saying at all. Im no numbers guy BUT i prmise you i hit more than 600hp. I can read the little orange numbers clearly. The reason i say SC seems stronger is simply due to the number left standing. I solo 90% of the time so my numbers aren't based on a team's support. The only reason i know what it hits with FS is my wife has a fire/kin.
Send me a PM so i can show you, if you'd like to see. Im on Justice. Bring your Blaster too Silas. Like i said, i just wanna see the difference.
comparing a toggle to a full string of defiance, or even aim/BU is simply illogical.
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Ok. Cool. TY.|
Originally Posted by Gearford
comparing a toggle to a full string of defiance, or even aim/BU is simply illogical.
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Just took wifes Inferno and with BU hit a mob, 5 left standing. 0x8. Bout died, but got it off.
Same mob 0x8, BU and SC, all down for the count. No health lost.
Like i said, SC seems as strong to me. If i can 1 shot a mob, how can u say it isnt?
Inferno and SC both one-shotting +0s doesn't mean they're "as strong".
It's like a Maserati and an F1 car racing a beat-up old pickup truck. Both the Maserati and the F1 will reach the finish line before the pickup, but they're certainly not as fast as one another.
The fact of the matter is, when compared both in a vacuum and in the context of their respective sets, Inferno does significantly more damage than Shield Charge.
People say it because the numbers back it up.
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Originally Posted by Silas
Inferno and SC both one-shotting +0s doesn't mean they're "as strong".
It's like a Maserati and an F1 car racing a beat-up old pickup truck. Both the Maserati and the F1 will reach the finish line before the pickup, but they're certainly not as fast as one another. The fact of the matter is, when compared both in a vacuum and in the context of their respective sets, Inferno does significantly more damage than Shield Charge. People say it because the numbers back it up. |
Oh, ok. Well, given that i can SC each mob and Inferno can't or more than 1 time in mobs of +2 or 3 or 4 i'd say it's gonna do more damage than Inferno, too.
Over time? Sure. But as for more damage straight up burst style, it won't compare, not on it's on, and certainly not when BU/Aim and any other non-set bonus damage buffs are taken into account. Those +2s that you have to SC twice? My Inferno just wiped em all out, at once, with just one attack.
Inferno has a larger radius, so it is highly more likely to hit more targets than SC. Inferno's radius means it can cover an area of almost 2000 square feet. SC? About 1200 square feet, or about 60% of Inferno's area. It'll do more damage, so against +1 and +2s, it's also more likely to get the kill, *on more of them* in one shot. Any external (as in, not built into the sets themselves, like BU/Aim/AAO) damage buffs can be used for either character, so the reds and damage bonuses you use are null in this comparison.
According to Mid's, SC with AAO at target cap and BU active, with 3 lvl 50 damage IOs in it, *should* do about 507 damage. Being a secondary power, it is not able to get a critical hit. Again, according to Mid's, Inferno with BU and Aim, plus the same 3 lvl 50 damage IOs, should do 1707 damage, if all the ticks hit, but at least 1102 damage, regardless of the ticks. That is more than twice the damage, with the potential to go over 3 times, if the ticks hit. Even Thunderous Blast, the weakest "true" nuke, will do about 960 damage, almost twice SC.
Heck, if you want to compare it a better analog, being a crashless lower damage, quicker recharge attack, RoA with BU/Aim and 3 Dam slotted does 271 if one wave hits, 542 if 2 waves hit (more than SC), and 814 if all three waves hit, which is pretty common.
Then take into account accuracy. Neither SC nor any of the nukes I've mentioned will do any damage if they don't hit, so accuracy is important. SC's base accuracy is 100%. Inferno and Thunderous Blast are both at 140%. RoA is at 160%. AAO doesn't give a tohit buff, so you only get the 20% (unenhanced) tohit buff from BU. Most blasters get BU and Aim, for a total of 52.5% tohit (unenhanced). That means practically 0 accuracy slotting needed for the blaster powers to be able to hit +2 and above, while SC will still need at least one accuracy. That means less recharge (discounting frankenslotting) available to SC, while the blaster nukes can just go with 3 recharge and 3 damage.
So yeah, Inferno will do less damage over the long run, but it'll kill a higher level and more spaced out mob easier than SC will. RoA (considered to be a mini-nuke because of it's lower damage) will consistently pump out better damage over time, against higher level mobs.
You were saying, eryq2?
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Don't bother attempting to show him he's wrong with numbers. Apparently his knowledge is so awesome, it's proof against math.
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Originally Posted by WarronPeace
You were saying, eryq2?
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Pah, math and facts are for people without convictions.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Don't bother attempting to show him he's wrong with numbers. Apparently his knowledge is so awesome, it's proof against math.
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Prove me wrong. I said come to Justice and i can show you. You think i'm making up numbers? I can clearly f'n see the numbers go over 700-800hp with BU, Melt Armor and SC. Like i said. W/O Melt Armor it's still hitting over 600. Please, show me my numbers are wrong. I'm not using SO's. My build is fully IO'd like i said with purples, oblits, kin coms, ect.
If you don't want to see and just talk numbers, then you were saying? Be a smart a, all you want. I don't care, but if you want to see it then send me a PM or shut up.
Ok I'm looking for very high AoE damage and I was thinking that Elec/Shield could get me that. I want to know which is overall better for high melee AoE damage. A Scrapper, or a Brute? Is there a better combo for AoE damage on either AT? and for single target damage on a scrapper or brute, which is the best set?