City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Elec/Shield, Scrapper or Brute?

Bunkdog

By Bunkdog,
Posted on: 2010-02-10 21:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Prove me wrong. I said come to Justice and i can show you. You think i'm making up numbers? I can clearly f'n see the numbers go over 700-800hp with BU, Melt Armor and SC. Like i said. W/O Melt Armor it's still hitting over 600. Please, show me my numbers are wrong. I'm not using SO's. My build is fully IO'd like i said with purples, oblits, kin coms, ect.


If you don't want to see and just talk numbers, then you were saying? Be a smart a, all you want. I don't care, but if you want to see it then send me a PM or shut up.
Take a screenshot. Far easier and simpler than one of us transferring a character to Justice or rolling a new character and coming with you, plus a screenshot can show your combat log.

Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans

 

Posted

The following are some details about Shield Charge for Scrappers, and are among the reasons that I assumed that the version of Lightning Rod that was created for Scrappers should've been ported over to everyone while leaving the Brute/original version of Shield Charge on the ATs that get it.

  • Shield Charge does more damage than Lightning Rod, solely due to AoE radius.
  • Shield Charge is a tier 8 in a defense powerset, Lightning Rod is a tier 9 in an offense powerset.
  • The Scrapper version of Lightning Rod does roughly as much base damage to the whole AoE as the Brute version of Shield Charge.
  • Scrapper Shield Charge does less damage than a Blaster nuke.
  • Base damage for the typical Corruptor nuke is 125.13, 75% chance of 62.56, 50% chance of extra 62.56. This makes the average damage 203.33 for nukes such as Blackstar, Atomic Blast, Dreadful Wail, or Nova. This is compared to the 200.2 for Shield Charge.
  • Shield Charge has no crash, an endurance cost of 13.52, can be done at a 60' range, and has a base recharge 1/4 of that of the nukes.
Now, given that what I expected to happen didn't (ie, the devs didn't leave Shield Charge alone when I commented on how much crap it was that Scrappers and Tankers got a buffed LR when Stalkers didn't - instead the buffed the Stalker version and then Shield Charge), I'm assuming that means that the devs feel that Shield Charge, as it stands now for Scrappers, is "balanced". Which means that it shouldn't be nerfed, but instead that every power dealing comparable damage at higher cost and/or risk is too weak.


So, to keep up with this form of "balance":
  • Have Lightning Rod deal its full damage to the entire AoE. There is no logical reason why a shield strapped to someone's arm can hit everything in a 20' AoE but a huge blast of lighting from the sky can't.
  • Remove the crash from each and every "nuke" power, and cut their recharge in half. This would still be twice that of Shield Charge, and they'd still cost more endurance and most would require being in the middle of the spawn.
  • Boost Corruptor damage modifier to 0.90 ranged and Defender damage modifier to 0.75 ranged. This means that a Defender using a secondary powerset will do as much damage as a Scrapper using a secondary powerset, and Corruptors will do slightly more - after all, they're using a primary powerset, so they're primarily damage dealers as well, right?
*gets off soapbox*

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
The following are some details about Shield Charge for Scrappers, and are among the reasons that I assumed that the version of Lightning Rod that was created for Scrappers should've been ported over to everyone while leaving the Brute/original version of Shield Charge on the ATs that get it.
  • Shield Charge does more damage than Lightning Rod, solely due to AoE radius.
  • Shield Charge is a tier 8 in a defense powerset, Lightning Rod is a tier 9 in an offense powerset.
  • The Scrapper version of Lightning Rod does roughly as much base damage to the whole AoE as the Brute version of Shield Charge.
  • Scrapper Shield Charge does less damage than a Blaster nuke.
  • Base damage for the typical Corruptor nuke is 125.13, 75% chance of 62.56, 50% chance of extra 62.56. This makes the average damage 203.33 for nukes such as Blackstar, Atomic Blast, Dreadful Wail, or Nova. This is compared to the 200.2 for Shield Charge.
  • Shield Charge has no crash, an endurance cost of 13.52, can be done at a 60' range, and has a base recharge 1/4 of that of the nukes.
Now, given that what I expected to happen didn't (ie, the devs didn't leave Shield Charge alone when I commented on how much crap it was that Scrappers and Tankers got a buffed LR when Stalkers didn't - instead the buffed the Stalker version and then Shield Charge), I'm assuming that means that the devs feel that Shield Charge, as it stands now for Scrappers, is "balanced". Which means that it shouldn't be nerfed, but instead that every power dealing comparable damage at higher cost and/or risk is too weak.


So, to keep up with this form of "balance":
  • Have Lightning Rod deal its full damage to the entire AoE. There is no logical reason why a shield strapped to someone's arm can hit everything in a 20' AoE but a huge blast of lighting from the sky can't.
  • Remove the crash from each and every "nuke" power, and cut their recharge in half. This would still be twice that of Shield Charge, and they'd still cost more endurance and most would require being in the middle of the spawn.
  • Boost Corruptor damage modifier to 0.90 ranged and Defender damage modifier to 0.75 ranged. This means that a Defender using a secondary powerset will do as much damage as a Scrapper using a secondary powerset, and Corruptors will do slightly more - after all, they're using a primary powerset, so they're primarily damage dealers as well, right?
*gets off soapbox*

I don't play red but it sounds like they got poo'd on.

Good idea on screenie. I'll post one tomorrow, when i get home from work. I was just thiking pop a lev 1 and i can take u to an AE farm or PI for a run so you can see.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
The following are some details about Shield Charge for Scrappers, and are among the reasons that I assumed that the version of Lightning Rod that was created for Scrappers should've been ported over to everyone while leaving the Brute/original version of Shield Charge on the ATs that get it.
  • Shield Charge does more damage than Lightning Rod, solely due to AoE radius.
  • Shield Charge is a tier 8 in a defense powerset, Lightning Rod is a tier 9 in an offense powerset.
  • The Scrapper version of Lightning Rod does roughly as much base damage to the whole AoE as the Brute version of Shield Charge.
  • Scrapper Shield Charge does less damage than a Blaster nuke.
  • Base damage for the typical Corruptor nuke is 125.13, 75% chance of 62.56, 50% chance of extra 62.56. This makes the average damage 203.33 for nukes such as Blackstar, Atomic Blast, Dreadful Wail, or Nova. This is compared to the 200.2 for Shield Charge.
  • Shield Charge has no crash, an endurance cost of 13.52, can be done at a 60' range, and has a base recharge 1/4 of that of the nukes.
Now, given that what I expected to happen didn't (ie, the devs didn't leave Shield Charge alone when I commented on how much crap it was that Scrappers and Tankers got a buffed LR when Stalkers didn't - instead the buffed the Stalker version and then Shield Charge), I'm assuming that means that the devs feel that Shield Charge, as it stands now for Scrappers, is "balanced". Which means that it shouldn't be nerfed, but instead that every power dealing comparable damage at higher cost and/or risk is too weak.


So, to keep up with this form of "balance":
  • Have Lightning Rod deal its full damage to the entire AoE. There is no logical reason why a shield strapped to someone's arm can hit everything in a 20' AoE but a huge blast of lighting from the sky can't.
  • Remove the crash from each and every "nuke" power, and cut their recharge in half. This would still be twice that of Shield Charge, and they'd still cost more endurance and most would require being in the middle of the spawn.
  • Boost Corruptor damage modifier to 0.90 ranged and Defender damage modifier to 0.75 ranged. This means that a Defender using a secondary powerset will do as much damage as a Scrapper using a secondary powerset, and Corruptors will do slightly more - after all, they're using a primary powerset, so they're primarily damage dealers as well, right?
*gets off soapbox*
Get back on that soap box. We need you there.

Quoted again because it deserves to be.

 

Posted

BU, Melt Armor, and SC. HP over 800, like i said. Since it's not possible to hit over 600, enjoy the crow.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
At level 50, Blaster Inferno does 304.98 damage base (62.56 smash, 125.12 fire, 50% chance for 93.84 fire, 75% chance for 93.84 fire). Shield Charge doesn't even compare with its 200.2 base damage. Keep in mind that, when you're looking at the power itself, you shouldn't be factoring in contributions from things like AAO. When analyzing the set as a whole, it's useful, but when comparing powers 1-to-1, it's not really appropriate.



LR and Shield Charge do the exact same amount of damage. The difference between the two that makes Shield Charge better is that Shield Charge applies all of the damage to the entire area whereas Lightning Rod applies the damage in concentric circles, with only a small area around the point of origin actually experience the full damage. Honestly, I point this out as all the more reason why Shield Charge is too strong: when a defense powerset has a better attack than a primary, you know something is wrong.



I'm curious how you're getting 300-350% base damage with Shield Charge. Slotting would cover 95%. Saturated AAO will give you another 81.25%. Toss in BU as well for another 100% +dam, and you're still going to be short about 25% +dam to even achieve the lowest damage you're listing (which I guess could be covered with +dam set bonuses). Keep in mind, of course, that the disparity you're mentioning between Melt Armor up and down is also too large because Melt Armor only provides 9.75% -res, so you'd see roughly 660 damage.



Which is exactly why it's called a "mini-nuke" and not a "nuke". RoA and Full Auto aren't generally referred to as nukes because they're crashless and up a lot more.


I was seeing over 600 just with BU, no AAO. With BU, AAO it runs around 700's and with AAO, MA, BU, it goes over 800, and up to 846, like i said. Sorry for the rudeness but i hate being called a liar.

 

Posted

Interesting, unless they math'd something wrong, you've probably uncovered a bug. How much damage do you do if you don't hit BU before melt armor? You said your chain is BU > MA > SC? What if you do MA > BU > SC?

@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Mojo_ View Post
unless they math'd something wrong
I just checked my numbers. I math'd it wrong.

200 * (1 + .95 + 1 + .8125) = 752.5; 752.5 * 1.0975 = 825.9

I think I forgot to include the base damage in the calculation. Apologies to eryq2.

 

Posted

np. it varies either way. im thinking its due to AAO and how many baddies i can get around me. i tried it both ways. bu+ma+sc or ma+bu+sc. damage varied from 770ish to 846 was the highest that i have in photo. i just didnt post that one cause i had a tell in it. i can if its hard to believe.

i was saying it done as much as a nuke. what i was tryin to say is that it felt like it if i can 1 shot them. if u can 1 shot with a nuke, or i 1 shot with SC, it may as well do the same(even if it don't) because in the end the same result was made. that's all i was tryin to say.

 

Posted

Fair enough. Thanks for posting the screenshot, although it makes me want to make an elec/sd/blaze even more

I agree that if a mob is one-shotted it doesn't really matter that much how one-shotted they are, I was just pointing out that Inferno does significantly more damage because it means Inferno can one-shot stuff that SC/LR can't. Even though as said before, SC/LR recharging much faster and not crashing your end mean over time they can easily do as much damage.

Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas View Post
Fair enough. Thanks for posting the screenshot, although it makes me want to make an elec/sd/blaze even more

I agree that if a mob is one-shotted it doesn't really matter that much how one-shotted they are, I was just pointing out that Inferno does significantly more damage because it means Inferno can one-shot stuff that SC/LR can't. Even though as said before, SC/LR recharging much faster and not crashing your end mean over time they can easily do as much damage.

Funny. I've PL'd 2 already since they seen mine and emailed them my build to them. I'm not a numbers guy, but this one was really easy to build. You really should. Mine's soft capped with 152% rech. It's really hard to play another scrapper set after the damage this one deals and with the damage he can withstand. Esp, if you like running the ITF.