Or, we could do like the low-level ToHit buff that scales down as you level.
Call it "Youthful Exuberance". 
*shrug*
I guess I just don't find lowbie endurance that big of a problem, now that we have better tools to deal with it than we used to. Combining Inspires to create what we want (Although lowbies have fewer storage capacity for holding them), removing the End cost of Brawl and the reduction (to 50%!) of the base recharge of Rest.
In the lower levels I find myself Resting to gain HP almost as often as for End.
We have to have Endurance be a somewhat limited commodity. If we always had Endurance, no matter what we did, what would be the point of having a blue bar? Being constantly out of End, however, makes for Un-Fun.
Well, whatever makes folks happy, though.
There's always a way to balance it. I mean i'm not talking about making you unable to lose end or even health. I mean just help your recharge. Same with health maybe. At high levels if you die and pop an awaken you don't even have to rest most of the time. Most of the time I find myself resting after every mob and most of the time it's not back in time for me to rest. I'm just saying. It's an idea.
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If SO level enhancements were available from level 1, I wouldnt argue with it. |
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
Or, we could do like the low-level ToHit buff that scales down as you level.
Call it "Youthful Exuberance". *shrug* I guess I just don't find lowbie endurance that big of a problem, now that we have better tools to deal with it than we used to. Combining Inspires to create what we want (Although lowbies have fewer storage capacity for holding them), removing the End cost of Brawl and the reduction (to 50%!) of the base recharge of Rest. In the lower levels I find myself Resting to gain HP almost as often as for End. We have to have Endurance be a somewhat limited commodity. If we always had Endurance, no matter what we did, what would be the point of having a blue bar? Being constantly out of End, however, makes for Un-Fun. Well, whatever makes folks happy, though. |
Endurance, like Rest, is lacking/slow to recharge in the early game which, ironically, is when you need it most. You have niether the slots nor the SOs to effectively slot for end red. You also don't have the insp space to really keep the ammount of insps most sets need to function anywhere above 'resting every spawn' pre 20.
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| If we always had Endurance, no matter what we did, what would be the point of having a blue bar? Being constantly out of End, however, makes for Un-Fun. |
Yes, we have IOs. Yes, people CAN make builds which dont need stamina. My empath defender is level 40 and doesnt have it, but she hasnt needed it. Possibly partially due to Vigilance, and Recovery Aura. I've never solo'd her to see how bad her end consumption is.
But having to resort to IOs just to avoid three 'wasted' power picks? Last time I checked, the game wasn't balanced around IOs. Nor should it be.
I just find it incredibly daft that pre 20, when arguably you have less powers and less stuff to run, when you should, logically, run out of endurance LESS, you run out of it more. It takes 3 power choices (1 for WP and Regen. The exception to the rule) to achieve 'normal' endurance recovery levels. Even then, endurance can still be an issue.
It is, however, three times the issue if you don't take Stamina. Which is, in my opinion, broken. So sue me.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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100% Agree with you on that one buddy.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
If SO level enhancements were available from level 1, I wouldnt argue with it.
Endurance, like Rest, is lacking/slow to recharge in the early game which, ironically, is when you need it most. You have niether the slots nor the SOs to effectively slot for end red. You also don't have the insp space to really keep the ammount of insps most sets need to function anywhere above 'resting every spawn' pre 20. I just find it incredibly daft that pre 20, when arguably you have less powers and less stuff to run, when you should, logically, run out of endurance LESS, you run out of it more. It takes 3 power choices (1 for WP and Regen. The exception to the rule) to achieve 'normal' endurance recovery levels. Even then, endurance can still be an issue. It is, however, three times the issue if you don't take Stamina. Which is, in my opinion, broken. So sue me. |
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@Inconclusive
Hmmm......
Chance Endurance enhancements from the current schedule they are on, and have all of them (TO/DO/SO) do the same that Endurance SOs do now?
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Just get rid of TO and DO entirely, and level the prices across the field. The current enhancement system as it stands now really doesn't make that much sense.|
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
Hmmm......
Chance Endurance enhancements from the current schedule they are on, and have all of them (TO/DO/SO) do the same that Endurance SOs do now? |
/Opinion
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Like I always mention in these 'endurance idea' threads, all you really need to do is maximise the use of Brawl and the origin temp powers to get you through rough patches of endurance loss. Brawl costs nothing to use and charges frequently, the origin temp powers use such a small amount of endurance (2.08) that you can keep up an attack chain of both and still recover endurance. As well as the fact that origin temp powers contain some useful debuff components such as Magic's -resist, and Technology's chance to stun/hold.
Other people discussed the idea of reducing the recharge of rest to around 1 minute and removing the ability to slot it for recharge, which I would agree to as it would help lowbies minimise downtime by not having wait for it to recharge after every mob. Another way of helping endurance loss is by switching between Brawl/O-temps and your powersets, that way half of your attacks cost little to nothing while keeping up decent damage.
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In other words, making it impossible for low level characters to get enhancements. No, thank you. Even if you don't use Training and Dual Origin enhancements, I do and would not appreciate having them vanish from the game and be replaced with 15 000 inf a pop enhancements. Besides, enhancements of increasing strength are one of the ways out power increases, and I'd rather keep them as they are.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Just get rid of TO and DO entirely, and level the prices across the field. The current enhancement system as it stands now really doesn't make that much sense.
/Opinion |
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| Which is exactly the case pre-20. Out of endurance nearly every mob. People keep bleating on about 'Your not slotting right' or 'Your doing it wrong' (paraphrased, but its damn close) when, really, what the hell else are people meant to do? I dont think anyone has ever asked for 'infinite endurance'. |
As far as what you can do about it, if you really want to hear me out, there is PLENTY. It requires running some numbers, but it's far from difficult to manage if you really want to. For one, know the DPE (Damage Per Endurance) of your powers and use the ones with the best efficiency. Remeber that AoE and cone powers are less efficient than single targets against single enemies, but can be more efficient if you hit enough. Find out how many you need to hit (cones tend to be 2-3, AoEs 3-4) and only use them against this many. Some of your powers are more efficient, some less. Flares from Fire Blast is more efficient than your other blasts, and Hurl from Super Strength is less efficient than your other attacks. Pool attacks and Epic attacks tend to be less efficient still.
Know your EPA (Endurance Per Activation) and note that even cheap powers can cost you a lot in an attack chain if they cost too much for the time they take to activate. Because damage and endurance are tied together for the most part (0.192 scale damage per unit of endurance cost), so a high DPA power will also have a high EPA, which means you must pick if you want high burst damage or low burst cost.
It takes some amount of work to figure these things out, but it's not impossible as it doesn't involve any mathematics more complicated than simple division (or, in practice, using the Windows calculator). If you really want to, I can run the numbers for you just as a gesture of good will. But there ARE ways to go around the problems.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I have a question for you - what use would Numia have for a gym? She's dead and has no body. She's just a ghost. What use would Bastion have for a gym? He's a robot. You will always run into these kinds of problems when you try to design the game around the assumption that heroes have human physiology. Even the canon heroes don't always have that, and even those who do don't always use their physique to power their abilities.|
Originally Posted by Shuriken_BladeX
This has probably come up before but I've seen a couple topics about people wanting a way to help early end problems. Why not add a gym? How else do people help with their endurance up? There's two possible ways to go about having a gym for heroes. Have missions designed as a cardio arc or something to help improve a heroes over all endurance.
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I'm not necessarily against the notion of expanding our endurance bar, but you really, really need a better idea as to how to implement that. And again - remember that expanding the bar also boosts recovery as a percentage of it, which in turn increases the effectiveness of other recovery buffs. And remember also that our powers do not increase in cost as we improve their stats, and only actually DECREASE as we slot them. This isn't like in other MMOs, where a stronger version of a power also costs more, requiring a greater mana pool to not shaft yourself. Granted, getting more powers puts a greater strain, but then it comes down to a question of power uptime and power efficiency, which isn't actually something that should be trivialised. Our endurance bar also determines the number of toggles we can reliably run, and I actually feel this is a good system to limit them. It punishes sets with too many toggles, granted, but then I feel sets with too many toggles are not well designed.
Basically, even if I felt the system was lacking, which I'm not sure I do, I'd want to see a better way to bring this about.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Note the 'level prices across the board'. I.e. make them affordable, and not so daftly priced as they are now, requiring sold IO recipe drops or a level 50 inf dump to fully slot when you hit 22 (YMMV, I've *always* run into a problem, and Im pretty damn sure Im not playing the game 'wrong')|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
In other words, making it impossible for low level characters to get enhancements. No, thank you. Even if you don't use Training and Dual Origin enhancements, I do and would not appreciate having them vanish from the game and be replaced with 15 000 inf a pop enhancements. Besides, enhancements of increasing strength are one of the ways out power increases, and I'd rather keep them as they are.
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| Infinite endurance is exactly what people are asking for, even if they're not saying it in these exact words. The fact that you run out of endurance is how the game is supposed to play. Endurance management is supposed to be a meaningful part of the game, and Rest is meant to be used. The way some people talk, you'd think having to stand still for 10 seconds or hit rest is tantamount to a blood insult. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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There are already two day jobs already associated with better endurance management
1) Duelist, which is a 4 (6) end buff and makes each recovery tick 4(6)% larger
(Heros Galaxy city, Villains Port Oakes for the low level arena)
2) Clubber which gives a 10% (12.5%) recovery boost, which is suppressed in combat.
Pocket D is easy for anyone to get to.
Arena is my #1 logoff location for lowbies.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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If not exercise most of the time if someone has powers they practice with them in order to increase their endurance with them. I still don't see a problem with having a trial or something you go through to help you get use to your power...or however.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I have a question for you - what use would Numia have for a gym? She's dead and has no body. She's just a ghost. What use would Bastion have for a gym? He's a robot. You will always run into these kinds of problems when you try to design the game around the assumption that heroes have human physiology. Even the canon heroes don't always have that, and even those who do don't always use their physique to power their abilities.
I'm not necessarily against the notion of expanding our endurance bar, but you really, really need a better idea as to how to implement that. And again - remember that expanding the bar also boosts recovery as a percentage of it, which in turn increases the effectiveness of other recovery buffs. And remember also that our powers do not increase in cost as we improve their stats, and only actually DECREASE as we slot them. This isn't like in other MMOs, where a stronger version of a power also costs more, requiring a greater mana pool to not shaft yourself. Granted, getting more powers puts a greater strain, but then it comes down to a question of power uptime and power efficiency, which isn't actually something that should be trivialised. Our endurance bar also determines the number of toggles we can reliably run, and I actually feel this is a good system to limit them. It punishes sets with too many toggles, granted, but then I feel sets with too many toggles are not well designed. Basically, even if I felt the system was lacking, which I'm not sure I do, I'd want to see a better way to bring this about. |
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@Inconclusive
a gym. hehe. what about a temp power reward like from bank missions that gives a recovery boost??
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The Talos Island safeguard and mayhem missions grant an 5 point endurance increase, which increases your real endurance recovery because recovery operates by increasing the rate you regain 5% increments of your total endurance.
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Originally Posted by Fuzz_JDC
a gym. hehe. what about a temp power reward like from bank missions that gives a recovery boost??
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If this were a couple of years ago, I'd fully agree with you. Back when we had to depend on just enhancement drops for our income, getting a full set of SOs was a pain and rarely affordable right as they became available. But these days, it's not the case, and it's not about you doing it wrong. You WILL get inventions drops whether you like it or not. You cannot turn them off. Granted, the chance to not get anything decent is still out there, but in my experience, it is not very high. I don't play the Market, I don't farm and I don't share resources between my characters, and I still manage to get enough Inf off a couple of lucky drops over the first 20 levels.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Note the 'level prices across the board'. I.e. make them affordable, and not so daftly priced as they are now, requiring sold IO recipe drops or a level 50 inf dump to fully slot when you hit 22 (YMMV, I've *always* run into a problem, and Im pretty damn sure Im not playing the game 'wrong')
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Basically, what you want to do is visit the market, dump your inventory in it and check what's going for a high price right now, then offer that for a low price. You'll get undercut from time to time, but a lot of the time you'll sell for upwards of 10 times what you listed, and on expensive drops you can get a 65 000 sale for a 250 list price. And what isn't going well just dump at the next vendor you meet. That, and try to sell enhancements to the "correct" stores for maximum revenue and you really shouldn't have BIG problems.
But suppose you have problems with getting SOs that I just can't foresee. I can accept that I don't know everything. How are you getting Inventions, which cost over ten times as much, when you can't get SOs?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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As I said, I'm not against the mechanics of the idea. I just dislike the implementation as coming from a gym. I wouldn't be against some way to increase your endurance pool (but NOT by a trial), and would very much enjoy that. However, I fear what such a thing would do to power balance, since recovery buffs are percentage-based off your total amount of endurance.
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Originally Posted by Shuriken_BladeX
If not exercise most of the time if someone has powers they practice with them in order to increase their endurance with them. I still don't see a problem with having a trial or something you go through to help you get use to your power...or however.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This has probably come up before but I've seen a couple topics about people wanting a way to help early end problems. Why not add a gym? How else do people help with their endurance up? There's two possible ways to go about having a gym for heroes. Have missions designed as a cardio arc or something to help improve a heroes over all endurance. While also having it set for certain levels. Like 1-14 14-20 and so on and so on. While also having a day job in that location that improves endurance recharge outside battles. This would help a lot of low level tanks, and blasters with end problems. This is just an idea. I know most people are gonna poke holes in it, but thats what I'm posting it for. I just wanna know what everyone else thinks.
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@Inconclusive