Fire control changes drastically at 32 when you get the imps. And when you hit 38 and take Fulcrum Shift, then you will see why its supposed to be so fantastic.
Yes it is a very late-blooming set. Playing on teams and slotting some IOs will offset some of the squishiness.
It doesn't get better. Roll a dom. Redside ftw.
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Once you hit level 38+.
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Originally Posted by Humility
So I am trying out a Fire/Kin since they are supposed to be fantastic and such.
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Fire/Kin is actually one of the worst, if not the worst, combinations in playability from level 1 to about 35. It's probably one of the most endurance intensive toons I've ever had (and I've played stone melee and dark armor characters). All the AoE controls suck up a lot of end, and while you do decent damage for a controller, you have to spam a lot of attacks to defeat stuff. |
Originally Posted by Humility
So I am trying out a Fire/Kin since they are supposed to be fantastic and such.
Is this late blooming? Right now I am telling myself "wait till 20, wait till 20, wait till 20". It just feels like very spawn takes at least half my stam, and damage output is painfully low. I know i'm still lowbie at 18... but good lord it's just getting horrible. Slow killing and squishy as heck, with some factions the alpha will faceplant me regardless of what I do. I know getting stamina at 20 will help, but does the set just bloom late? Looks like there are some really fantastic tools in late game /kin, which is good cause right now it's just... meh. REASSURE ME DAMNIT!  |
At the lower levels, you're pretty much team dependent. It's a horrible toon solo.
With that said, once you get to level 32 things get a lot better. Level 35 brings a final end to your endurance issue with transference. Level 38 brings a lot more damage with fulcrum shift - which helps out teammates more than you for the time being. Level 41 is where the tire meets the road. Once you see what a fulcrum shifted fire ball could do, it will all seem worth it.
This is why many of the fire/kins who you see running around have been PL'ed. Many of them will tell you that fire/kins are wonderful to play because they've never actually *played* the character from level 1 to 50.
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I disagree with most of the comments so far - Fire/kin's are very easy to solo even at the early levels.|
Originally Posted by Humility
So I am trying out a Fire/Kin since they are supposed to be fantastic and such.
Is this late blooming? Right now I am telling myself "wait till 20, wait till 20, wait till 20". It just feels like very spawn takes at least half my stam, and damage output is painfully low. I know i'm still lowbie at 18... but good lord it's just getting horrible. Slow killing and squishy as heck, with some factions the alpha will faceplant me regardless of what I do. I know getting stamina at 20 will help, but does the set just bloom late? Looks like there are some really fantastic tools in late game /kin, which is good cause right now it's just... meh. REASSURE ME DAMNIT! |
Transfusion gives you a large Heal for low End cost
Siphon Speed at L10 gives you a large recharge bonus
Hot feet for damage
Cages for containment
Flashfire at L12 for mitigation
Char for hold/mitigation
Run the missions at about -1 or 1/x4 o r5 or so at low level
Flashfire, Cages, and cook them with hotfeet while spamming cages.
Use Siphon Speed for +recharge
Transfusion to negate damage
Char Bosses and Lieuts but try to avoid Bosses and run missions without them
As you level up you can adjust the level accordingly but you should level at a good rate.
I've levelled a number of Fire controllers and /Kin is one of the easier - big heal, +recharge are nice buffs to have.
It really takes off in the 30's - Imps at L32, Fulcram Shift at L38.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Guess the advise is... get PL up to 32.|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
This is why many of the fire/kins who you see running around have been PL'ed. Many of them will tell you that fire/kins are wonderful to play because they've never actually *played* the character from level 1 to 50.
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Now while I don't have a fire/kin, I do have a fire/storm.... and yes, you need to be in the 30s before you can start enjoying the awesomeness that is fire/kin-izm.
In fact, I felt about the same on my rifle/devices blaster below lvl 30. I hated to play her (since my other blaster was a fire/fire), and almost deleted her more then once but I worked her up to lvl 28 and started having fun and now I enjoy playing her.
But if you want to take a break, roll up a ice/kin which is pretty safe at the lower levels. In fact, it was the only toon I ever had that I felt sad to leave Hollows with.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
Fire/storm is a much much earlier bloomer than fire/kin.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Sorry got to disagee again |
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Fire/storm is a much much earlier bloomer than fire/kin.
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A large heal from the off and plus recharge at L10, all Storm gives you is Freezing Rain and you have to wait till L16 for that, the other worth while powers are in the 30's as per Kin.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Sorry got to disagee again |
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Fire/storm is a much much earlier bloomer than fire/kin.
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A large heal from the off and plus recharge at L10, all Storm gives you is Freezing Rain and you have to wait till L16 for that, the other worth while powers are in the 30's as per Kin.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Freezing rain is a huge HUGE help and it comes early. Heal? meh.
Things like hurricane, steamy mist and thunderclap are wonderful in the twenties for survivability and increased control. As someone that has played both sets 1-50 I'll say that fire/storm matured much earlier and made a bigger impact earlier.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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The OP is complaining mostly about how much endurance it takes to defeat mobs before getting Stamina. Are you seriously suggesting taking Hot Feet before Stamina? Seems like you'd have a rough go of it before Transference.|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
I disagree with most of the comments so far - Fire/kin's are very easy to solo even at the early levels.
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Fire/Kins aren't really different from most other characters pre-Stamina. Only Regen and Willpower characters are relatively free from endurance problems. Everyone else sucks wind like your Fire/Kin until 20.
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I guess it depends on whether the OP is talking Solo or Team.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Freezing rain is a huge HUGE help and it comes early. Heal? meh.
Things like hurricane, steamy mist and thunderclap are wonderful in the twenties for survivability and increased control. As someone that has played both sets 1-50 I'll say that fire/storm matured much earlier and made a bigger impact earlier. |
The /Kin will solo better where the idea is to take down large low level mobs and keep moving quickly - if your taking too much damage just reduce the level of the mob a notch.
The /Storm will be better on a team where extra control is useful and you dont need to keep running all the togs for damage and control.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Another thing about those über Fire/Kins: many of them are custom built to farm one specific map. Sure, they can mow down level 50 Family or Council like nobody's business. But they quickly lose their luster when presented with the other common enemies you meet at level 50: Carnies, Malta, Arachnos, etc.|
Originally Posted by Humility
I know getting stamina at 20 will help, but does the set just bloom late? Looks like there are some really fantastic tools in late game /kin, which is good cause right now it's just... meh. REASSURE ME DAMNIT!
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The downside of /Kinetics is that it doesn't have much mitigation: it's mostly offense. Other sets, like /Rad and /Storm, provide a great deal of mitigation in the form of -def, -to hit, -dmg resist, big -regen, knockdown, etc. And /Rad (arguably) gives the best area hold in the game. Combined with the holds, stuns, fears and damage of the /Fire, it's probably easier to deal with a wider variety of mob types than you can with /Kinetics.
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I agree with most of this having soloed a hand full of Fire/ controllers.|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
I disagree with most of the comments so far - Fire/kin's are very easy to solo even at the early levels.
Transfusion gives you a large Heal for low End cost Siphon Speed at L10 gives you a large recharge bonus Hot feet for damage Cages for containment Flashfire at L12 for mitigation Char for hold/mitigation Run the missions at about -1 or 1/x4 o r5 or so at low level Flashfire, Cages, and cook them with hotfeet while spamming cages. Use Siphon Speed for +recharge Transfusion to negate damage Char Bosses and Lieuts but try to avoid Bosses and run missions without them As you level up you can adjust the level accordingly but you should level at a good rate. I've levelled a number of Fire controllers and /Kin is one of the easier - big heal, +recharge are nice buffs to have. It really takes off in the 30's - Imps at L32, Fulcram Shift at L38. |
Hot Feet is manageable pre-stamina if you slot it for end red instead of damage. The trick here is to not spam Fire Cages until after you have stamina. Just renew it when it's about to expire to maintain containment. Hot Feet is the best DPE power available to the Fire/ controller.
The accuracy in char has a base 90%, duration of the hold is twice as long as it's recharge, so just slot it for damage and end red early. Ring of Fire is the same, just slot it for damage and end red early and go single target against the lieutenants while you let Hot Feet take out the minions.
Any secondary that provides additional control makes Fire/ easier in the early levels.
/Storm adds another AoE stun with Thunderclap and the -res from Freezing rain makes a huge difference.
/TA adds an extra hold, and Flash Arrow combined with Smoke adds 10-15% defense equivalent in to hit debuff values (that helps a lot with the alpha) it also adds a defense debuff and 2 resistance debuffs.
/Rad adds an extra AoE hold, a strong defense and to hit debuff, a strong res debuff, and a self heal for those with a h34l0r mentality.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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And Fire/Rad is much earlier blooming that Fire/Kin or Fire/Storm. Accelerate Metabolism takes care of some of the endurance issues, Fire Cages + Radiation Infection provides early control. And then it gets much better once you get Choking Cloud slotted up and get the Imps at 32 -- no need to wait until 38 for the best stuff.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Fire/storm is a much much earlier bloomer than fire/kin.
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I agree with the various comments here. Before Stamina, your Fire/Kin will be sucking down Blue. Even after Stamina, Fire/Kin doesn't get real impressive until Imps at 32, Transferance at 35 and Fulcrum Shift at 38 -- and then it is good for taking out large numbers of lower level foes, but not as good as other combos at tougher foes.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Thanks all for the responses and insight. Unfortunately I am a mostly solo player, so it will be a long road. I am basically rerolling from red to blue on a new server and wanted to get a pair of fire/kins leveled up for general pling/farming etc. I wanted to do a little pvp, so working on new toons on freedom since I'm told that's really the only active pvp community.
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I have a 50 brute and several 30+ masterminds I even have a fun little mind/psi dom in the teens. I would love to roll redside. Until they merge the markets that's just not going to happen. I'm pretty much done with red. The market population is so small many things aren't available. When they are available the redside marketeers are busy screwing you in every way they can. Blueside market is much much larger and more active, so much more pleasant to use for a casual player since it is so much more difficult for marketeers to actually lock things down. Nice work marketeers, you've driven me and my sons to play blue when nothing else so far had done so. Redside certainly needs more people being driven away since it's so overpopulated.
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
It doesn't get better. Roll a dom. Redside ftw.
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Quote:
What you are experiencing isn't a cause. It's a symptom. There have been lots of things proposed by players that would improve play and population on the redside but so far the devs haven't done any of them and quite frankly many of the things that would make red side more successful aren't feasible.|
Originally Posted by Humility
Thanks all for the responses and insight. Unfortunately I am a mostly solo player, so it will be a long road. I am basically rerolling from red to blue on a new server and wanted to get a pair of fire/kins leveled up for general pling/farming etc. I wanted to do a little pvp, so working on new toons on freedom since I'm told that's really the only active pvp community.
I have a 50 brute and several 30+ masterminds I even have a fun little mind/psi dom in the teens. I would love to roll redside. Until they merge the markets that's just not going to happen. I'm pretty much done with red. The market population is so small many things aren't available. When they are available the redside marketeers are busy screwing you in every way they can. Blueside market is much much larger and more active, so much more pleasant to use for a casual player since it is so much more difficult for marketeers to actually lock things down. Nice work marketeers, you've driven me and my sons to play blue when nothing else so far had done so. Redside certainly needs more people being driven away since it's so overpopulated. |
A classic example is the recent Dom revamp. Yes I know it was called a revamp and it did slightly increase Dom playability though it also made low level dom play a little more tedious. What it actually did was nerf perma and especially double dom. The more I think about it the more that seems to be the case.
In any event the few remaining red side toons I have are moving to blue permanently when GR comes out unless its painful, tedious and probelmatic doing so, in which case I'll be abandoning the red side ATs completely by deleting them and using those character slots for new heroes.
I've long been a proponent of merging the markets there really is no reason not to especially with GR looming on the horizon.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Did marketeering finally drive me (and correspondingly my sons) off of redside: Yes|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
What you are experiencing isn't a cause. It's a symptom. There have been lots of things proposed by players that would improve play and population on the redside but so far the devs haven't done any of them and quite frankly many of the things that would make red side more successful aren't feasible.
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Does that equal a population loss for red: Yes
It is a cause. It may not be one of the major causes of red population issues, but to say it isn't a cause of population loss is outright fallacious. A good rule of thumb I have seen applied to MMO populations is that for every person posting about an issue on the boards, there are 10 casuals in game who never visit the forums and feel the same way. I'm not saying I speak for the masses... but if it was enough to ruin red for me, doubtless there are others who feel the same. It may not be the root cause of the larger population imbalances as a whole, but it does contribute.
IMO, even the blue side market is messed up. Red side is a freak show and with lesser people playing since people are waiting on GR it's even more so. I don't see side switching as helping either because I think more people will bring villains blue side than vice versa.
For me personally, I would roll a scrapper for farming if I'm mostly soloing my way to 50. Let's say the Fire/kin outperforms the scrapper 38+. If it's not fun enough to get to 38, then the later out performance aspect doesn't matter.
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Actually you have my point exactly backwards. Profiteering redside is easy because population is low. Combining the markets at its inception would have relieved part of the problem.|
Originally Posted by Humility
Did marketeering finally drive me (and correspondingly my sons) off of redside: Yes
Does that equal a population loss for red: Yes It is a cause. It may not be one of the major causes of red population issues, but to say it isn't a cause of population loss is outright fallacious. A good rule of thumb I have seen applied to MMO populations is that for every person posting about an issue on the boards, there are 10 casuals in game who never visit the forums and feel the same way. I'm not saying I speak for the masses... but if it was enough to ruin red for me, doubtless there are others who feel the same. It may not be the root cause of the larger population imbalances as a whole, but it does contribute. |
I know how to use the market on both sides my problem red side isn't prices its how long goods take to turn over there.
I'm leaving red side permanently for 4 reasons:
1) Low population = low market supply. IOs were supposed to be a way to advance your character post level 50. It takes me rough 3-4 times longer to do this red side compared to blue. Merging the markets would have eliminated this issue.
2) Red side zones are choked with refuse and are hard to travel around unless you fly or leap. My favorite travel power is Super Speed. All the zones red side are unfriendly to my play style especially Grandville.
3) Red side ATs are boring for me for the most part. Brutes are repetative, MM's your computer plays for you. Doms had potential but the revamp didn't really change the major issues for the AT. I can't stand stalkers. Once GR goes live though I may replace all my defenders with corruptors since they have both a higher damage modifier and get scourge.
4) Lack of content. Been through what little there is far too many times (yawn) at least on blue side there is more variety and more selection of TFs (even though longer and more tedious).
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
I strongly disagree. The blue market has been easier to break into (AE bronze reward rolls to get me on my feet). There is greater availability and less retarded level price fixing. Circuit boards were something like 150K red side the other night and there is not a damn thing to be done about it because the market sees such little activity. Blueside price fixing happens... but with red side I would be surprised to see that price return to anything resembling normal for at least three to four days, and then only if the marketeer who did it doesn't bother maintaining it. There simply is not enough supply to prevent things like that from being cornered.
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
IMO, even the blue side market is messed up. Red side is a freak show and with lesser people playing since people are waiting on GR it's even more so. I don't see side switching as helping either because I think more people will bring villains blue side than vice versa.
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Quote:
So we're in agreement. Your original post didn't really state that you were addressing this as opposed to population loss due to market status.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Actually you have my point exactly backwards. Profiteering redside is easy because population is low. Combining the markets at its inception would have relieved part of the problem.
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Well, hit 20 tonight and got Stamina up and running. Talk about a world of difference. Things go much smoother and at a nice pace.
The problem wasn't lack of control or even really raw damage output... but rather lack of stam. Doing 1-2 fights and having to way on stam was just horrible. It's much much smoother now and I expect relatively smooth sailing from here on out. 21 to get slots in stamina should smooth over the few bumps left.
Looking to shape up into nice little killing machines (Don't think I mentioned I'm dual boxing fire/kins when my son is sleeping or at school). Not quite as interesting or engaging as my Storm/Ice troller I'm leveling with my son, but fun in their own way for sure.
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The game isn't about IOs and there are PLENTY of stuff redside.
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Originally Posted by Humility
Thanks all for the responses and insight. Unfortunately I am a mostly solo player, so it will be a long road. I am basically rerolling from red to blue on a new server and wanted to get a pair of fire/kins leveled up for general pling/farming etc. I wanted to do a little pvp, so working on new toons on freedom since I'm told that's really the only active pvp community.
I have a 50 brute and several 30+ masterminds I even have a fun little mind/psi dom in the teens. I would love to roll redside. Until they merge the markets that's just not going to happen. I'm pretty much done with red. The market population is so small many things aren't available. When they are available the redside marketeers are busy screwing you in every way they can. Blueside market is much much larger and more active, so much more pleasant to use for a casual player since it is so much more difficult for marketeers to actually lock things down. Nice work marketeers, you've driven me and my sons to play blue when nothing else so far had done so. Redside certainly needs more people being driven away since it's so overpopulated. |
So I am trying out a Fire/Kin since they are supposed to be fantastic and such.
Is this late blooming? Right now I am telling myself "wait till 20, wait till 20, wait till 20". It just feels like very spawn takes at least half my stam, and damage output is painfully low. I know i'm still lowbie at 18... but good lord it's just getting horrible. Slow killing and squishy as heck, with some factions the alpha will faceplant me regardless of what I do.
I know getting stamina at 20 will help, but does the set just bloom late? Looks like there are some really fantastic tools in late game /kin, which is good cause right now it's just... meh. REASSURE ME DAMNIT!