It's that time again...new video card...
By
Dark One,
Posted on: 2010-02-05 15:47 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
In that price range you have on the Nvidia side the 9800 GT Series.
On the ATi side you have the RadeonHD 4850 series.
If I was buying though, I'd pay out a little more and go for the RadeonHD 57xx series of cards.
The 5750's start around $130 and the 5770's start around the $160 mark.
Thing is, the 57xx series is really the base starting point for cards that can run DirectX 11 features at an appreciable frame-rate. While the RadeonHD 56xx series can be had for under $100, at least in Dirt 2, they can't run DX11 features like tessellation fast enough to generate playable frame-rates in "normal" wide-screen LCD resolutions like 1440*900 or 1680*1050.
If I broke the $100 mark, I wouldn't buy an Nvidia card though because they don't support DirectX 11, and currently there won't be a mid-range card from Nvidia, nor a low-end card, that will support DX11 until August at the earliest.
Yeah, and I can attest that the HD 5770 runs COH very well on all full settings. Still waiting to see how it will do with Ultra Mode though!
@The Omega Elementress
Currently playing Project Willow lvl 50 DB/WP Incarnate Shifted Scrapper
DirectX 11 isn't really that big of an issue. There's not really a whole lot of PC games coming out anymore that interest me, given the absurd DRM schemes prevalent nowadays. The only possible one that I know of ATM, is Fallout: New Vegas
Quote:
PCIe not PCI-X, different beast altogether.|
Originally Posted by Dark One
'lo again.
This time, I'm looking to upgrade from an nVidia GeForce 7600GT to something a bit better. I'd like to keep price under $100, if at all possible. It needs to be PCI-X though. |
Quote:
| I'm looking for something that can run, say, Fallout 3 on pretty high settings. |
Quote:
|
Other stats: 3GHz P4 w/HT, 3gig RAM, XP (no, I'm not upgrading to Vista or Win7). Thoughts? |
Ignoring the PSU issue the nVidia 9800GT is now at $100. Next step below that is the 9600GT followed closely by the new GT 240. ATI has the HD 5670 (which beats the GT 240 by 15%) and the faster but older HD 4850 (which beats all of the above with a stick, 15% faster than the 9800GT) . However some of these may tax a lower rated, store bought rig's PSU.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
See...this is why I don't like shopping for components. A 4850 is better than a 9800.
*head hurts*
Quote:
gets worse when you realize that the "9800" could also stand for the Radeon 9800, which was released back in 2003. |
Originally Posted by Dark One
See...this is why I don't like shopping for components. A 4850 is better than a 9800.
*head hurts* |
Basically, Nvidia, AMD/ATi, and Intel are never going to come to an agreement on marketing their products in a way that you can actively compare the products by the product name. So while it may hurt your head, it's just marketing as usual.
Would it be possible to list the types (like the 9800 series, 200, etc) in order of which is better? I don't need exact specs, but where they would rank compared to each other, with my 7600GT at the bottom.
Is that a reasonable thing to ask? Obviously, omit the ones that $200+. Say, a limit of maybe $150ish (ish giving some wiggle room there).
Quote:
I generally use TechArp as a reference:|
Originally Posted by Dark One
Would it be possible to list the types (like the 9800 series, 200, etc) in order of which is better? I don't need exact specs, but where they would rank compared to each other, with my 7600GT at the bottom.
Is that a reasonable thing to ask? Obviously, omit the ones that $200+. Say, a limit of maybe $150ish (ish giving some wiggle room there). |
Theoretical ATi performance: http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=88&pgno=3
Theoretical Nvidia performance: http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=88&pgno=7
***
As far as how they rank?
Well, starting with the GeforceFX series Nvidia's naming scheme has worked like this:
x2xx - x4xx: Low End cards
- 5200
- 6200
- 7300
- 8400
x5xx - x7xx: Medium Range cards
- 5500
- 6600
- 7600
- 8600
- 9600
x8xx - x9xx : high end cards
- 5800
- 6800
- 7800
- 8800
- 9800
So, with this model number arrangement, a card that has a higher first number, or the same first number with a higher second number, is more powerful.
The actual line-ups are more complicated as Nvidia uses a variety of suffixes like GT, GSO, GTX, and GTS to identify different types of cards. So a 9800 GT is less powerful than a 9800 GTX.
Recently Nvidia changed their marketing strategy since they were using the same model numbers as ATi used several years ago.
Nvidia's current line up is:
GT - low end cards
- GT 220
- GT 230
- GT 240
GTS x40 - low med range
- GTS 240
- GTS 340
GTS x50 - medium range
- GTS 250
- GTS 350
GTX - high end
- GTX 260
- GTX 270
- GTX 280
Nvidia's going to change their marketing scheme again with Fermi, as they'll start branding the Fermi cards with GF 100.
***
The ATi side is a little bit easier to follow.
Back when the Radeon launched, ATi decided to name their cards after the versions of DirectX they supported.
So, the Radeon 7xxx series supported DirectX 7.
- Radeon
- Radeon 7000
- Radeon 7500
The Radeon 8xxx series supported DirectX 8.
- Radeon 8500
- Radeon 9000*
- Radeon 9100*
- Radeon 9200*
The Radeon 9xxx series supported DirectX 9.
- Radeon 9500
- Radeon 9600
- Radeon 9700
- Radeon 9800
Since DirectX 9 hung around for a while, ATi had a problem. Their low-end DX9 cards were simply too powerful to be low end, so ATi started rebadging the 8500 series as lower model 9x00 parts.
the next set went
- x600
- x700
- x800
then the x1x00 series
- x1300
- x1600
- x1800
- x1900
Again, very easy to figure out "where" your card was. If you had an x850, it was more powerful than a x800 or an x700.
Starting with DirectX 10, ATi's strategy changed again, with the RadeonHD lineup.
RadeonHD 2x00
- RadeonHD 2300
- RadeonHD 2600
- RadeonHD 2900
RadeonHD 3x00
- RadeonHD 3300
- RadeonHD 3400
- RadeonHD 3600
- RadeonHD 3800
RadeonHD 4x00
- RadeonHD 4200
- RadeonHD 4600
- RadeonHD 4700
- RadeonHD 4800
RadeonHD 5x00
- RadeonHD 5400
- RadeonHD 5600
- RadeonHD 5700
- RadeonHD 5800
Pretty clear to figure out where each card is from the model numbers. A card from the 4700 is going to be more powerful than a card from the 3600 series.
Things can get fuzzy at the top end, where a RadeonHD 48xx card can keep up with something like a RadeonHD 57xx card. Things generally are consistent though across the Radeon range.
As far as direct analogs go, the series matches up sorta like this:
Radeon 8x00 series = GeforceFX Series\
Radeon 9x00 series = unmatched
Radeon xx00 series = outmatched
Radeon x1x00 series = Geforce 6x00 Series / Geforce 7x00 series
RadeonHD 2x00 series = outmatched
RadeonHD 3x00 series = Geforce 8x00 series
RadeonHD 4x00 series = Geforce 9x00 / GTS 250 / GTX series
RadeonHD 5x00 series = unmatched
To explain this, the Radeon 9500-9800 series cards didn't have any Nvidia equivalents.
The Geforce 6x00 series took the upper hand, and ATi wasn't able to match the Nvidia offering till the x1x00 series of cards, which competed against the 7x00 series as well.
With the 8800 Series, Nvidia again outmatched ATi.
ATi eventually gave a performance answer to the 8x00 with the RadeonHD 3x00 series.
The RadeonHD 4x00 series took on both the 9800 series and the GTX series.
With the RadeonHD 5x00 series, ATi is currently unmatched by anything on the Nvidia side. Nvidia is expected to match the high end RadeonHD 5x00 series with Fermi.
***
I hope this answered your question.
*head asplodes*
Seriously though, thank you for that. It gives me some good info. I just wish these dinks that are making them would have some form of standardized nomenclature for models.
Well there is the Hierarchy Chart from the most recent Tom's Hardware "Best Graphics Card for the Money". It gets updated once a month as new cards are released.
Then there is the Performance Summary Chart from the latest video card review at techPowerUp. As long as you remember that the chart is normalized for the card that's being reviewed, you get a good idea of a card's general performance.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Thank you as well FatherXmas.
See, it's stuff like this that drives people to the consoles for gaming. Can't really blame them I guess. Even I'm starting to get to the point (aside from the draconian DRM schemes) that PC gaming just isn't worth it for more than MMOs. :/
Hmm...ok, after inhaling a bunch of fumes from the compressed air that I had to use to clean out the case (dang dustbunnies and their hippie dust commune), hitting my head on the underside of the desk, scraping my arm on the carpet, and other assorted travails, I got at the PSU.
Whichever genius thought that putting the specs sticker on the underside of the unit needs to be fired...out of a cannon...into the sun.
Anywho...it's 350W. Ya, kinda wimpy. But I don't know if I'll be able to actually get anything better in there. It's a Dell Dimension 8400 box. It's got a section of wires heading into this tesseract looking alternate universe thing with pipes and gnomes and other monsters. It does have, what I assume to be, a 6-pin PCI power connector? It's black, gotta clip on it, has two rows of three pins. Plus, the unit has these pin holes that match up to the case and an attachment clip to the side.
So ya...
Ok, I found this combined with this power supply. One thing I noticed on the PSU is that the 12v amperage is kinda...low (lower than my existing PSU at any rate).
Is the 12v output not that important anymore? I base it on the vid card only saying <x> wattage required with the PCI express connector.
Ya, I know it's $200 +/-, but I'd like to eke out another couple of years on this box.
Ah, no. The PSU is plain horrible. I have no problem with the video card.
CPU and video cards feed at +12 volts. The amps/watts available at +12V is more important than overall wattage.
Problem is the Dell 8400 isn't a standard case from the POV that the PSU area isn't punched out of the rear panel, just some fan holes and a hole for a power cable. This means that a PSU must be designed without an on/off switch and the power cable connector must be at a specific spot.
Because of that PSU upgrades for those Dell models aren't cheap since there aren't that many alternatives.
What you are looking for is a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 470 for Dell. Problem is it is out of stock pretty much everywhere I looked and it's not all that cheap, $60-70.
That leaves this at NewEgg. Beggars can't be choosers.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
I've been considering a similar upgrade and was looking at this PSU. What's your take on that Father Xmas?
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
That PSU still wouldn't be good enough for a vid card that's worth upgrading from the 7600GT. Most of the ones I've seen list 450W as the minimum, but they don't list the 12v requirement.
I looked up that PC Silencer model PSU and it lists the same 12v amperage as the one that I linked to on eBay. What is the problem with the one I linked?
It looks like you have some restrictions I don't.
What I did was look at my 12V supply currently and found estimates of the video card's draw both new and old, then looked for a PS that increased my 12V rail by at least that much.
It looks like you've only got that one choice though...
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
Oh sorry Kosmos. I was referring to the one that FatherXmas linked for me. Wasn't talking about yours. :/
My post wasn't a very good one. I just typed what I was thinking instead of adjusting it to be appropriate to yours. I listed that PSU thinking it might work for you too and was wondering if Father Xmas thought it might. Obviously it won't.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
I may have to just go with a build-it-yourself model comp. Something that I can hide in the monthly batarang budget. Buy a part or two at a time.
I looked at FatherXmas' $600 model, but that's six months old, so maybe something better has come out for a similar price. I wouldn't need new hard drives or opticals, so that would save some there.
But that would be the first that I've ever built from the ground up and well...it's intimidating... >.<
Quote:
Yea, well video card manufacturers first tend to err on the conservative side with their minimum PSU requirements because they are guessing that gamers may only know the total power output and that until recently PSU manufacturers didn't list the max power output at 12 volts, just the limits on each +12V rail, so even if they did list it confused the average Joe. The assumption is that a 450 watt power supply, even an older one from years ago, will have enough power at 12V. They are just covering their backsides.|
Originally Posted by Dark One
That PSU still wouldn't be good enough for a vid card that's worth upgrading from the 7600GT. Most of the ones I've seen list 450W as the minimum, but they don't list the 12v requirement.
I looked up that PC Silencer model PSU and it lists the same 12v amperage as the one that I linked to on eBay. What is the problem with the one I linked? |
That said, the HD 5750 uses at most 100 watts in torture test conditions, normally 75 or so in games. That's roughly 9 amps at 12 volts. Your current PSU, is 350 watts. That 400 Watt PSU I linked to earlier which is sold as an upgrade for the Dell 8400, has 29A at 12 volts which is 348 watts at 12 volts. It'll work fine as long as the manufacturer is being truthful.
BTW do you remember what the amp rating at 12 volts on the sticker with your current PSU? It's tough to find any info online about it, the only one I saw was 13A which is scary low if they are also providing a 6-pin PCIe connector.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Quote:
Since I don't know what you have as the rest of your system, I can't say. |
Originally Posted by Kosmos
I've been considering a similar upgrade and was looking at this PSU. What's your take on that Father Xmas?
|
If it's a Dell Dim 8400 case then I can say that PSU won't fit unless you start cutting sheet metal.
Power wise, that PSU is pretty good with 30A at 12 volts. Should be good enough for the $150 and less video cards as long as you aren't OC your CPU or have some other device that is sucking down 12 volts.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Quote:
I believe it was 2 separate 12v ratings. Both at 16A each. I'll check again tomorrow just to be sure. Need to take a second look at my slot usage as well.
|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Yea, well video card manufacturers first tend to err on the conservative side with their minimum PSU requirements because they are guessing that gamers may only know the total power output and that until recently PSU manufacturers didn't list the max power output at 12 volts, just the limits on each +12V rail, so even if they did list it confused the average Joe. The assumption is that a 450 watt power supply, even an older one from years ago, will have enough power at 12V. They are just covering their backsides.
That said, the HD 5750 uses at most 100 watts in torture test conditions, normally 75 or so in games. That's roughly 9 amps at 12 volts. Your current PSU, is 350 watts. That 400 Watt PSU I linked to earlier which is sold as an upgrade for the Dell 8400, has 29A at 12 volts which is 348 watts at 12 volts. It'll work fine as long as the manufacturer is being truthful. BTW do you remember what the amp rating at 12 volts on the sticker with your current PSU? It's tough to find any info online about it, the only one I saw was 13A which is scary low if they are also providing a 6-pin PCIe connector. |
Quote:
While you are at it, anything that resembles a part number would help as well. Also if the sticker list maximum wattage for combined rails, like 200 watts combined 3.3V + 5.0V. A combined 12 volt max wattage would be perfect but considering it's a Dell, I'm not holding my breath.|
Originally Posted by Dark One
I believe it was 2 separate 12v ratings. Both at 16A each. I'll check again tomorrow just to be sure. Need to take a second look at my slot usage as well.
|
Remember, those amp ratings for each rail is something akin to a circuit breaker. Just because each can pull 16A doesn't necessarily means that the combined rating is 32A ... which would be 384 watts out of a 350 watt PSU which shows exactly why you can't add them together.
Now since it did come with a 6-pin PCIe connector, the current PSU may be good enough. Yes it doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies but it's still a possibility.
And heads up, not going to be around all day and maybe not at all, family event + the "Big Game" (not trademarked) will be keeping me away from the keyboard.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
'lo again.
This time, I'm looking to upgrade from an nVidia GeForce 7600GT to something a bit better. I'd like to keep price under $100, if at all possible. It needs to be PCI-X though.
I'm looking for something that can run, say, Fallout 3 on pretty high settings.
Other stats: 3GHz P4 w/HT, 3gig RAM, XP (no, I'm not upgrading to Vista or Win7).
Thoughts?