Punchvoke and Taunt Auras
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-02-01 09:50 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Taunt is not necessary AV or not. But it definitely helps if you find yourself losing aggro.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
I always thought Tank's attacks contained a Taunt component in similar threat level as the power Taunt (same with taunt auras vs. taunt), but a SG mate states otherwise. Since neither of us are 100% sure and are only using personal experience to state our facts...we could use some confirmation from the community.
When fighting an AV or multiple, does punchvoke and Taunt Auras (from tanks) "taunt" the AV or does the player have to use the power [Taunt] in order to keep the aggro of the AV? |
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
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The tanker Inherent, Gauntlet |
Originally Posted by Clouded
I always thought Tank's attacks contained a Taunt component in similar threat level as the power Taunt (same with taunt auras vs. taunt), but a SG mate states otherwise. Since neither of us are 100% sure and are only using personal experience to state our facts...we could use some confirmation from the community.
When fighting an AV or multiple, does punchvoke and Taunt Auras (from tanks) "taunt" the AV or does the player have to use the power [Taunt] in order to keep the aggro of the AV? |
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| Each time a Tanker attacks, he enrages the target, and those around him, enticing them to attack the Tanker. Each punch continues to provoke your enemies and allows the Tanker to do what he does best. Gauntlet -- also referred to as "PunchVoke" -- causes the Tanker's AoE attacks and auras to taunt every PvE enemy they affect. Their single-target attacks taunt the enemy hit and up to four more around it. Gauntlet has reduced chances of affecting exceptionally high-rank foes like Giant Monsters, and even worse chances of affecting other players in PvP. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
The strength difference from Taunt vs. Auras/Punchvoke mainly comes from the duration difference.
The Threat formula is as such (in a basic form):
Threat = Damage * AI Mod * AT Mod * Range Mod * Debuff Mod * (1000 * TauntDurationRemaining [in seconds])
Taunt, the power, at level 50, has a 45 second duration. Meanwhile, Punchvoke has a duration of 13.5 seconds (on most powers, it varies on some, but all are well short of 45 seconds). As you can see, if you put that into the formula above, Taunt becomes a much bigger Threat generator.
When it comes to AVs and GMs, on top of that, punchvoke isn't automatic, and requires a ToHit check, in addition to the one on the power, if any. As such, punchvoke becomes not an automatic thing when fighting AVs and GMs, and Taunt gains a lot of usefulness against them, but isn't mandatory to hold aggro.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I read the info on Paragonwiki as well and it states Gaunlet's effect decreases with higher-ranking foes. I would assume that attacking an AV or using the Taunt Aura would be sufficient Threat to maintain aggro since a Tanker's threat mod is higher than all ATS (except Brutes).
I'm guessing there's no clear cut answer since Threat determines aggro, and it's possible for a tanker's threat level to be superseded by a scrapper or other AT unless that tank uses [Taunt]?
EDIT: thanks for the Info Aett, that's very insightful
Taunt auras are also 13.5 seconds, although as they tic every 2 seconds, I would guess that stacks for a good effect. And Invincibility and the like are like 16.8 every one second. (Except Rise to the Challenge which is only 1.25, barely lasting as long as the tic)
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Correct. |
Originally Posted by Clouded
it's possible for a tanker's threat level to be superseded by a scrapper or other AT unless that tank uses [Taunt]?
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I have pulled agro from a tank myself playing a Willpower scrapper, because I also had a taunt aura and I was dealing more damage. As soon as the tank used Taunt he got the agro right back, but when he was just punchvoking I stole it from him with relative ease.
Willpower, Invulnerability, and Shield Defense scrappers can all do so, because all 3 sets have taunt auras in them. Regen, SR, Electric, Fire and Dark probably won't because they lack taunt auras.
Any brute with a full fury bar will steal agro from a tank that is not actively taunting as well, as all brute secondaries contain a taunt aura, even SR (their version of Evasion includes a taunt aura).
However, there isn't anything I have seen yet that will ever steal agro from a well played Ice tank, since Ice Armor has 2 taunt auras (Chilling Embrace and Icicles)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Which is why Ice Tanks are my fave =)|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Correct.
However, there isn't anything I have seen yet that will ever steal agro from a well played Ice tank, since Ice Armor has 2 taunt auras (Chilling Embrace and Icicles) |
Its also easy enough to Soft Cap the set with IOs, and Energy Absorption + Hibernate make the armor damn near indestructable!
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Willpower should not have that good of a taunt aura, which likely means either the Tanker was not using his own taunt aura, or you were pulling aggro with other effects, like maybe debuffs or knockback. The greater damage is partially countered by the Tanker's greater Thread modifier. (But only partially. And we can't really say how that works anyway)
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I have pulled agro from a tank myself playing a Willpower scrapper, because I also had a taunt aura and I was dealing more damage. As soon as the tank used Taunt he got the agro right back, but when he was just punchvoking I stole it from him with relative ease.
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Gauntlet, same magnitude, hit on target required to then autohit on foes in gauntlet area.. Also of low duration which can turn out to be even lower vs enemies ingame. It scales with levels and it is resistable.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I always thought Tank's attacks contained a Taunt component in similar threat level as the power Taunt (same with taunt auras vs. taunt), but a SG mate states otherwise. Since neither of us are 100% sure and are only using personal experience to state our facts...we could use some confirmation from the community.
When fighting an AV or multiple, does punchvoke and Taunt Auras (from tanks) "taunt" the AV or does the player have to use the power [Taunt] in order to keep the aggro of the AV? |
When fighting multiple AVs, it is phenomenally risky to be trying to keep aggro of all of them without taunt. You can maintain one AV's attention in a virtual sense. This can mean that for a few milliseconds the AV was about to hit your mate just then. You can still easily lose the one AV as you'll need tohit, you'll need to be constantly attacking and so have a good end economy.
Not all Tankers have an autohit taunt aura and so everything they do without taunt relies on being able to hit.
Tauntless tankers and Mary MacComber as an example..the scene tends not to be as pretty as it could be.
That's how I see it.
Should you have taunt then know that it not only -ranges but your threat level is affected by range also. The further away you are the less it is.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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If you're trying to decide whether your Tanker should pickup Taunt or not, I'd strongly recommend it if you want to be able to Tank reliably anymore. Before you (general you) all skewer me with pitchforks for that taboo, let me explain.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I read the info on Paragonwiki as well and it states Gaunlet's effect decreases with higher-ranking foes. I would assume that attacking an AV or using the Taunt Aura would be sufficient Threat to maintain aggro since a Tanker's threat mod is higher than all ATS (except Brutes).
I'm guessing there's no clear cut answer since Threat determines aggro, and it's possible for a tanker's threat level to be superseded by a scrapper or other AT unless that tank uses [Taunt]? EDIT: thanks for the Info Aett, that's very insightful |
Tankers used to be able to hold aggro decently without Taunt, not up to my standards, but well enough. While Tankers really haven't changed, the game has. More and more characters are getting access to passive taunt effects (WP, Shield, Brutes in coop/GR). The way taunt mechanics work out, when two characters with equal taunt durations collide, the one who deals the most damage will always win (debuffs could cause the scale to tip). Since Tanker damage is below the others, they will lose aggro; this isn't just for AV fights, but normal minions/lieutenants/bosses as well. The only way Tankers can win is by raw taunt duration - basically getting a bigger multiplier than Brutes/Scrappers.
The other wrinkle is there are several encounters in the game where Gauntlet / Auras won't do the trick - namely the STF, possibly LRSF (GR). The uncertainty of Gauntlet, the lowered effectiveness of taunts (all taunt durations are effected by the Purple Patch, not just Gauntlet), it all adds up to lost aggro.
So, in order to fufil their role on teams with several taunt capable characters, it's Taunt or bust, imo. I'm saying this as someone who has stolen aggro from Tankers on my Invuln Scrapper, and been able hold aggro on multi-Brute teams as a WP/Fire.
* Note 1: I'm NOT saying be a Taunt-Bot; that's counter productive. You need the larger threat multiplier and solid dps.
* Note 2: The fact that Brute/Scrapper taunt durations on auras / Gauntlet-Lite [edit: are identical in duration to Tankers] and Taunt/Confront is the only difference is a pet peeve of mine. Tankers are designed to take a beating, but it's getting harder and harder for them to do so - especially for people who don't read-up on game mechanics.
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I learned something today. Thanks!|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Regen, SR, Electric, Fire and Dark probably won't because they lack taunt auras.
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I was comparing the damage auras between scrapper and brutes and I never noticed that scrappers lacked the taunt component in that power. Interesting.
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I didn't you answer your own question there?|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I'm guessing there's no clear cut answer since Threat determines aggro, and it's possible for a tanker's threat level to be superseded by a scrapper or other AT unless that tank uses [Taunt]?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Clouded
...it's possible for a tanker's threat level to be superseded by a scrapper or other AT
... unless that tank uses [Taunt] |
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No, I didn't answer my own question. Aett and others did that for me. |
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
I didn't you answer your own question there?
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Sarrate,
I always take Taunt on Tanks. This thread was more of a confirmation since my SG had a small discussion and this topic surfaced.
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It wasn't just the taunt aura, it was the taunt aura combined with the fact that I was doing a metric crapton of damage, and the tank was just punchvoking, with attacks that didn't appear to be slotted that well. But, as I mentioned, as soon as the tank used taunt he got the agro right back (the tank appeared to be built for team play and didn't have much damage output)
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Willpower should not have that good of a taunt aura, which likely means either the Tanker was not using his own taunt aura, or you were pulling aggro with other effects, like maybe debuffs or knockback. The greater damage is partially countered by the Tanker's greater Thread modifier. (But only partially. And we can't really say how that works anyway)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Gotcha.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Sarrate,
I always take Taunt on Tanks. This thread was more of a confirmation since my SG had a small discussion and this topic surfaced. |
I used to be much better about not jumping to conclusions. I need to work on that.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It wasn't just the taunt aura, it was the taunt aura combined with the fact that I was doing a metric crapton of damage, and the tank was just punchvoking, with attacks that didn't appear to be slotted that well. But, as I mentioned, as soon as the tank used taunt he got the agro right back (the tank appeared to be built for team play and didn't have much damage output)
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I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but the reason for this is you need to have twice as much threat as the current aggro holder to steal it. So the longer you go without holding aggro, the harder it is to reclaim it. On the flip side, the longer you hold aggro, the easier it is to keep it.
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Well, consider that Rise to the challenge has a 1.25 duration every 1 second. Let's say the Tanker was Fire and was using Blazing Aura, so a 13.5 duration every 2 seconds. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I was doing a metric crapton of damage, and the tank was just punchvoking, with attacks that didn't appear to be slotted that well.
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Here's Aett's formula:
Threat = Damage * AI Mod * AT Mod * Range Mod * Debuff Mod * (1000 * TauntDurationRemaining [in seconds])
For a Tanker, that would be (TDamage * 4 * (1000*13.5) * OtherFactors)
For your Scrapper, that would be (SDamage * 3 * (1000*1.25) * OtherFactors)
Assuming OtherFactors are the same in both cases, that means that you would have had to be doing:
SDamage * 3750 > TDamage * 54,000
SDamage > TDamage * 14.4
Or 14.4 times the damage the Tanker was doing.
That's pretty freaking badly slotted.
You do 1.56 times what the Tanker does normally, and three slotted you should do 3.047 times the Tanker's damage. The only way you could be doing around 15 times the damage of the Tanker is if he has only one attack, and you have a chain of 5 attacks that you use in the time it takes his one to recharge. I can only conclude that
1) The Tanker had no Taunt aura of his own. And even Gauntlet should have been giving him pretty close to 13.5 Taunt duration part of the time. And I'm not even considering stacking. (I'm going to assume no matter how many Taunts you have on a foe, the maximum duration is the only one counted)
or 2) There is more to the formula that we are not considering. For instance, you could have been in melee with the foes, while he was further away, bringing the Range Modifier into play.
(Also, I'm ignoring Sarrate's true statement that you need twice the aggro to steal it. However, the damage the Tanker was doing to foes OTHER than the one he was hitting likely was less than yours, so there is also that)
Now, if you were an Invulnerability Scrapper with Invincibility going, now that would be a totally different picture.
One more thing to keep in mind:
Threat does seem to 'stack' in some ways. Meaning that it seems to add up (which is why sometimes you need to apply several Taunt powers onto an enemy to get them back onto you).
As part of that, attacking faster generates more Threat. A scrapper not only does more damage per attack, on average, they also tend to have more attacks, and at a lower level, allowing them to have a better attack chain than many Tankers until very late levels.
A scrapper throwing out two 100 damage attacks for every one the Tanker can throw out generates twice the Threat. Fun!
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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OTOH, the Tanker throwing out a 200 damage attack half as often can "spike" his aggro to grab it. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
A scrapper throwing out two 100 damage attacks for every one the Tanker can throw out generates twice the Threat. Fun!
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I actually don't do this with Tankers as often, but it's a major factor in my grabbing aggro with my Bruiser redside. He may not attack that often, but his attacks are usually burst damage, grabbing the aggro from myself or other squishies. (Obviously he's not going to grab it from a Brute, but I'm talking about in the absense of Taunt)
I'm also assuming that although Taunt does no damage, it ends up being counted as if it does damage for a "hit" with it. It does seem as if, even though Gauntlet is AoE, if you are not doing AoE damage, Taunt is really needed to grab aggro on the whole group.
Or, you can just switch targets like I do.
I suspect "hey, my buddy was just hit" aggro counts too, although not to the same extent as direct damage.
I always thought Tank's attacks contained a Taunt component in similar threat level as the power Taunt (same with taunt auras vs. taunt), but a SG mate states otherwise. Since neither of us are 100% sure and are only using personal experience to state our facts...we could use some confirmation from the community.
When fighting an AV or multiple, does punchvoke and Taunt Auras (from tanks) "taunt" the AV or does the player have to use the power [Taunt] in order to keep the aggro of the AV?