Night Widow Smoke Grenade


Catwhoorg

 

Posted

I've been customizing and rebuilding my Night Widow for some time now, but i've been having trouble evaluating Smoke Grenade. There have been some changes to the manner in which the power functions, but i'd like to know what others have gathered through their testing.

It was my understanding that originally, Smoke Grenade required a ToHit Check to apply *both* its Perception and ToHit Debuffs. Patch notes indicated that the ToHit Check was removed from PvE for the -Perception, but the power still required a ToHit Check for both effects in PvP and for the ToHit Debuff in PvE. The problem here is that the in-game ToHit Check details specify something to the effect that upon using Smoke Grenade in PvE, one applies both the ToHit and Perception Debuffs automatically upon use.

Additionally, the in-game power information states that the -ToHit Debuff is unresistable. If the in-game description is accurate, there is no ToHit Check for either debuff in PvE and Smoke Grenade is a decently powerful unresistable debuffing tool. My main question is this: "What really happens when I use Smoke Grenade now?"

Is the ToHit Debuff really unresistable? Is it possible that it truly is autohit in PvE at least? And if so, are people *overwhelming* undervaluing the potential of a relatively fast-recharging, fast-activating, unresistable ToHit Debuff? Is Better Off Ted yet another comedic joy gone too soon from this world? Any thoughts out there?


Veridian Dynamics. Mistakes. We all make them. But sometimes mistakes lead to great discoveries. Mistakes are how we learn and grow... so we can do amazing things.
When you think about it, shouldn't you be thanking us for making mistakes? Veridian Dynamics. We're sorry. You're welcome.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind_Over_Matter View Post
Is the ToHit Debuff really unresistable? Is it possible that it truly is autohit in PvE at least? And if so, are people *overwhelming* undervaluing the potential of a relatively fast-recharging, fast-activating, unresistable ToHit Debuff?.
I don't know about Smoke Grenade being auto-hit.

"Auto-hit" = bypasses Def, always hits
"Unresistable" = the effect doesn't consider Resistance when applying its effect

-3.75% to-hit isn't bad, but it's not that good either. Brutes with Dark Melee do -5.63% with every attack, Corrs can smack -25% to-hit with Radiation Infection... Granted, those debuffs can be resisted, but they'll still probably have more effect than Smoke Grenade.


 

Posted

I meant to include the foundation for my inquiry. The unresistable information is from the in-game power details.

Patch Notes - 16 June 2009
________________________________________
Release Notes for 19.20090612.0
Night Widow Training / Smoke Grenade should no longer accept Accuracy enhancements.

Patch Notes - 12 June 2009
________________________________________
Release Notes for 19.20090610.1
Training/Smoke Grenade: This power no longer accepts accuracy enhancements as it no longer has a To-Hit check.

Patch Notes - 9 June 2009
________________________________________
Release Notes for 19.20090605. 2
Night Widow/Smoke Grenade:

This power will now auto-hit foes.
________


The in-game stats lists an *enhanceable* Base 3.75% ToHit *unresistable* Debuff. With all that said, i'm wondering if the power is working as the above information states. If so, i'm all for the power. It's just that it becomes a much more potent power than Fire Control/ Smoke or Devices/Smoke Grenade.

For PvE Comparison: (From City of Data)

Power: Dominator/Fire Control/Smoke
Cast: 1.17 sec
Recharge: 15 sec
Endurance: 7.8
Range: 80ft
Max Targets: 16

Perception -0.9 for 60s (auto-hit)
ToHit -3.75% for 60s (auto-hit)

Power: Devices/Smoke Grenade
Cast: 1.37 sec
Recharge: 15 sec
Endurance: 7.8
Range: 80ft
Max Targets: 10

Perception -0.9 for 60s (auto-hit)
ToHit -4.9% for 60s (Not Auto-hit )

Power: Night Widow Training/Smoke Grenade
Cast: 1.37 sec
Recharge: 15
Endurance: 7.8
Range: 110
Max Targets:16

Perception -0.9 for 60s
ToHit -3.75% for 60s (unresistable)

There are clearly some similarities between the powers, however i'm not certain if the Night Widow mirrors the Devices/Smoke grenade in only having the perception debuff autohit or if it follows the Fire Control/Smoke method of applying both Debuffs as auto-hit in PvE. Yep. There's a lot of searching and reposting involved to get to the bottom of this. Can any one help test the above information for accuracy?


Veridian Dynamics. Mistakes. We all make them. But sometimes mistakes lead to great discoveries. Mistakes are how we learn and grow... so we can do amazing things.
When you think about it, shouldn't you be thanking us for making mistakes? Veridian Dynamics. We're sorry. You're welcome.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind_Over_Matter View Post
Is the ToHit Debuff really unresistable? Is it possible that it truly is autohit in PvE at least? And if so, are people *overwhelming* undervaluing the potential of a relatively fast-recharging, fast-activating, unresistable ToHit Debuff? Is Better Off Ted yet another comedic joy gone too soon from this world? Any thoughts out there?
Yes, yes,yes!

It does auto-hit. At least, when you use it, the hit rolls channel doesn't display any rolls, but the combat channel says the effect went off.

Combined with Maneuvers and Mind Link, it's a worthwhile debuff.

I'm not positive that it's unresistable, but I don't have anything off hand to test that on. Is there any mobs that are renowned for resisting tohit debuffs?


@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilia View Post
Combined with Maneuvers and Mind Link, it's a worthwhile debuff.
This.

While Smoke Grenade is not exactly "must take," it's useful once you get other powers stacked up with it.

Solo, with Maneuvers, it's worth 8.75% of Def, base. Add the -Perception to that for easy mob control and it's great. Plus, Smoke Grenade does not break hide, so you can spam it from safety even on large teams, and still have your initial crit available.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind_Over_Matter View Post
Is Better Off Ted yet another comedic joy gone too soon from this world? Any thoughts out there?
Did they cancel it?!?

Say it ain't so!

That show has me in tears at times!




currently reading: A Mighty Fortress (David Weber)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilia View Post
I'm not positive that it's unresistable, but I don't have anything off hand to test that on. Is there any mobs that are renowned for resisting tohit debuffs?
Any AV



@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind_Over_Matter View Post
Is the ToHit Debuff really unresistable? Is it possible that it truly is autohit in PvE at least? And if so, are people *overwhelming* undervaluing the potential of a relatively fast-recharging, fast-activating, unresistable ToHit Debuff?
I don't know about undervaluing it, the debuff value is still small. It's not necessary in solo play for a night widow that can already hit the defense cap. It could be situationally useful in groups, but I'd consider it a low-priority power. If your build has room for it then go for it, but if your build is already tight on powers, that would be the first power I cut.