Enhancement Diversity and today
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-01-26 11:42 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Actually the gap between ED and issue 9 did not surprise me. Remember inventions were supposed to be originally a different kind of system . . . something related to a SKILLS system, with Universities playing an even larger part than what they do now. Also keep in mind that it was between ED and issue 9 that the dev team was cut down to the legendary 15.|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
It probably worked out for the best, but I'm still surprised at the gap between the two events. This may be my faulty memory, now, but I swear I remember someone mentioning "interesting new enhancement options" as an outcome of ED.
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Unless my old decrepit mind is finally failing me.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
EDIT: As to the main point of the OP: ED on it's own did NADA to diversify anything. COMBINED with IOs, then layered with procs, purples and now pvp ios, more and more I see less and less similar builds. The powers are often similar (cause face it there are still some powers that SUCK %$S in either pvp, pve or in some rare cases BOTH) but with VASTLY different set bonuses and base enhancements.
Hell if you ask randomly for a build now, you'll get folks chiming in with 5-6 different Mid's builds, frankenslot builds, purple builds, etc, etc, etc.
THAT^ to me shows the success of ED and IOs.
HOWEVER:
1. You could NOT have one without the other.
2. The way ED's communication was handled was godawful.
3: Related to 2. Jack Emmert is a d-bag many folks minds, even if folks understand 1.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Impossible.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You know, there are days when I wish I could flip a switch and wipe people's memories. Then maybe the ED deconstructions will finally stop, but even then it feels like the spectre of that thing is so strong it would punch through causality just for the sake of reminding people.
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Simply because we wouldn't have COH as it exists today without ED.
Could you imagine them trying to introduce something like purple enhancements based on the original way enhancements worked?
LOL just LOL.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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He doesn't want to remove ED he wants to remove the memory of before ED and the way it came out.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Impossible.
Simply because we wouldn't have COH as it exists today without ED. Could you imagine them trying to introduce something like purple enhancements based on the original way enhancements worked? LOL just LOL. |
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Are you saying purples would be overpowered if we didn't have ED? Because unless I'm missing something, you'd only have around 145% damage using a purple without ED. Why do that when you could use standard IOs and get 212% (in 5 slots)? Especially since you'd be able to permahasten again without effort and not need huge recharge bonuses and stuff either.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Impossible.
Simply because we wouldn't have COH as it exists today without ED. Could you imagine them trying to introduce something like purple enhancements based on the original way enhancements worked? LOL just LOL. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Read: see the "nut-kicking" metaphor earlier. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
HOWEVER:
1. You could NOT have one without the other. 2. The way ED's communication was handled was godawful. 3: Related to 2. Jack Emmert is a d-bag many folks minds, even if folks understand 1. |
And yes. I may have disagreed with what his VISION(tm) required, but it was his smarmy way of condescendingly down-talking to the playerbase most of the time that upset me. I was surprised and disappointed that he kept it up when he moved over to Champions, and still had time to poo on us. Wherever he's at now, I'm sure he'll make time to innocently rag on us again.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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That would first require removing Jack Emmert as the one who gave the message, and having the game start with IOs/ED in place.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
He doesn't want to remove ED he wants to remove the memory of before ED and the way it came out.
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But I get his point.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Step One: Discuss the problems you feel exist with the pre-ED system.
Step Two: Present IOs as the better alternative.
Step Three: Transition
Step Zero: Don't let Jack open his mouth.
Or,
Step One: Jack denies that they will change how powers work.
Step Two: Immediately start CoV beta with ED in place.
Step Three: Permaban people who break the NDA with dissent.
Step Four: No alternative.
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Step 2,532: Introduce rocking IOs, w00t!
Same ending, which I much prefer to the way things were. Less "butthurt" involved. (I am now ashamed to have used that word.) It could've been handled better, yes, but people need to get over that.
And yes, again re: the thread as a whole: ED didn't diversify, IOs did--regardless of their connection with ED, if any.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
As far as I was aware, they saw the game as broken (and it was), which had to be patched up before their next "expansionalone" rolled out the gate, so the time crunch forced ED into a game with nothing to replace lost effectiveness. Which was kind of half the point, since our effectiveness was too high, but no-one will admit to or accept these days. For what it's worth, I approved of the change then and approve of it now.
I do believe it diversified builds a great deal, because I have not stopped getting into arguments with people as to what the best slotting for pretty much every power is. Even today if you ask for the best SO slotting, (barring people bible-beating you with Inventions), it will vary between 2acc/3dam/rech, 1acc/1end/3dama/rech, 1acc/2end/3dam/rech or even the not as popular 1acc/2end/3rech that Brute players insist I use. Today, obviously, it's a lot more profound, but since I've been running into people with vastly different builds and, more specifically, vastly different to my own, I see no problem with it.
And, yes, I'd like to erase people's memories from before ED, and their memories that it was ever anything else. I don't care to do anything different in the process, just make people for entirely. Someone would ask "Man, I don't remember my build being like that in 2004" and someone else will say "Yeah, it's almost like we're forgetting something. Oh, well!" It won't happen, but I can dream.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I quit City of Heroes for TWO YEARS after ED dropped. I'd say ED was 70% of my reason for quitting, the other 30% being that the content was getting extremely dull and repetitive. So, giving me a boring grind, and now making it take longer with my gimped toons was simply insult to injury. It was like adding speed bumps to a boring Nebraska highway. (sorry Nebraska.)
The impression myself and many others got from the developers was that they felt players were leveling too fast, they were too powerful, and there needed to be more grind. Whether or not it was true, i have no idea. That was the general feeling, though, and the developers did little to dispel it, including locking out threads discussing the topic on the site.
The invention system did do a lot to alleviate and rechannel a lot of players' ambitions and energies. Had they introduced it along with ED, I'm sure the mood would have been considerably nicer.
Stay Gold, Paragon. Stay Gold.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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Set bonuses seem to need some tweaking. The biggest discrepancy I know of is between defense bonuses (which everyone covets) and resistance bonuses (which everyone ignores). If they tripled the strength of resistance bonuses across the board they'd still not be as valuable as defense, but there would be more to think about. |
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
There are a lot of pretty bad IO sets out there (notably, a lot of the older ones), but there's more to build diversity than just which sets are popular and which bonuses are good.
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Resistance would still be not as good, because defense also provides mezz and debuff avoidance; but if it were possible to go from 0 to 50% resistance on set bonuses alone, you might want to give that a try.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Ideally they'd want to double the power of RES bonuses to make them about equal to DEF ones. But the problem is it's exceptionally hard to even build RES bonuses. Even if you did double it, you'd have to go out of your way to slot really obscure things just to get like 5% RES to one damage type. Whereas with DEF you can take lots of fairly common and useful sets and get 30% or more to most incoming damage. So it's a mix of the values being too low, and nearly inaccessible through normal sets.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Set bonuses seem to need some tweaking. The biggest discrepancy I know of is between defense bonuses (which everyone covets) and resistance bonuses (which everyone ignores). If they tripled the strength of resistance bonuses across the board they'd still not be as valuable as defense, but there would be more to think about.
Resistance would still be not as good, because defense also provides mezz and debuff avoidance; but if it were possible to go from 0 to 50% resistance on set bonuses alone, you might want to give that a try. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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That was pretty much my experience, too. I noticed my powers weren't hitting/using too much endurance/took too long to recharge, so I slotted accordingly, rather than all damage, and it worked for me. So, by the time ED came around, that was something I was doing already, so there really wasn't any major adjustment to my playstyle.
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
None of my characters were affected by ED. I was still so new to the whole MMO thing, that I hadn't even really been on the boards, so I didn't know you were "supposed" to 6-slot Damage, etc. It made more sense to me to spread it out and try to improve various aspects of my powers, rather than be one dimensional.
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William Shakespeare was the Bob Haney of his day!
Shhhhh...
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Six Slotted Stamina...
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Damn it...Can robots cry?
I came in after ED. So, I missed the 'pain'.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This game is nearly six years old. You missed a 17 month window. Anyone who says that the 17 month window was actually the game, and not the four+ years of everything we've had since is deluding themselves.
ED complaining is just a way people deal with other issues with the game.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.