Something I don't get about Resistance Sets

The short and simple of it is the caps, already stated by Werner. Many folks focus exclusively on defense because the cap is not only substantial but the same for every AT (90%).

Resist caps not only very by AT but bonuses are comparably scarce. Scrappers cap a 75% but finding bonuses to cap resistance to every type is damned near impossible (if possible at all). Even Brutes whose caps are at 90% can't get anywhere near them since their base values are the same as scrappers.

45% defense is substantially superior to 75% resistance but these are not the final determining factors for a scrappers survivability. Anyone looking down on a resistance set doesn't understand mechanics that go into your survivability. Regeneration, defense, resistance, and self heals do combine (though not stack) to compose your final mitigation. That's before factoring in debuffs, KBs, and out righting killing your opponent before they can harm you.

EDIT: Ultimately it boils down to personal preference. I can't play SR despite numerous attempts. I've seen outstanding performances by SR players so I know what it can do. I find DA, FA, WP, and Inv far more enjoyable and natural to play. (I haven't played Elec yet.)

EB and I have played together for years and we've constantly teased each other over the SR vs DA performance.

SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!

Let's have a recap:

You said that resistance sets do not have a stat that resists -Res debuffs. Yes, they do, it's called resistance.

You said that defense sets don't have holes in their mitigation the way resistance sets do. They don't in the sense of being weak to one type of damage, but -Def, enemy +ToHit and autohit attacks effectively give them one.

You said that defense debuffs are small in number. They aren't, because every two-bit thug has them as a secondary effect of their attacks and individual powers that debuff for large amounts also exist.

You said that resistance sets don't get to solo pylons, "or in some other way be so rediculous that you actually have to set up your own events to have a challenge". I pointed out that resistance sets can and do solo pylons.

You said that resistance sets have less "potential" than defense ones. No, they don't. Your example doesn't prove anything; read Desmodos' post above to find out why.

You made some sarcastic comments, which aren't worth responding to.

At this point, you've shifted the goalposts so far that I'm no longer certain what your alleged problem with resistance sets is. As best as I can tell, it amounts to resistance sets not dominating the pylon results thread (which is a thread about offensive rather than defensive benchmarking). Feel free to explain how this equates to squishiness of resistance-based sets, because it doesn't.

It comes down to what you prefere to play.

While in the miniority for sure, I've seen some of the resist based sets (/DA, /FA, /ELA...I consider the Resist Based sets) do amazing things, and survive amazing things, that one normally wouldn't see happen...with the advent of IOs.

That however, usually means alot more care, and alot more influence is going into the build.

Sadly, it's hard to get good defense numbers plus the RCH you need for high DPS, to get the resist sets to beable to do the things you see high end Defense/Hybrid sets pull off.

/SR and /WP play the same in terms of survival imo. Click on toggles and go. But their means of surival are different (Defense/Scaling Resists vs Defense/Resist/Regen). That said, I enjoy playing my /WP over /SR.

/Shields is a fun set, usually considered the best top end set, and it's still not my favorite set. Numbers be damned.

Now, only if I can get the Devs to give Scrapper a second /WP set option, which replaces RTTC with Reconstruction. I'd relevel my DB/WP for it.

I acknowledge the above points.

Heck, I'll also add that in most situations, I'd rather have the same amount of damage mitgation from resistance as I would from defense. 90% mitigation from resistance means you're taking a slow trickle of damage. If you can regenerate or heal it back, you'll never die. 90% mitigation from defense means occasional large spikes of damage. Even if on average you can regenerate or heal it back, you can still easily be killed, particularly in a long fight.

But I can't get 90% mitigation from resistance. And I'll reiterate that defense debuffs are a non-issue for a Super Reflexes or a maxed out Shield Defense Scrapper. And I'll reiterate that tohit buffs and pet tohit are very uncommon outside of Architect Entertainment. So are autohit attacks. And I'll believe there are some out there, but I can't remember any unresistable defense debuffs that I've ever run into. Perhaps my memory is poor, or I just didn't notice it happening when it did. In any case, something I can't even remember doesn't seem like a big, commonly-encountered weakness.

We must be fighting different enemy groups or something. It's not like I'm confused about how defense debuffs and tohit work. I just don't see them being an issue for Super Reflexes or maxed out Shield Defense running most non-AE content.

Similarly, I'll say that the psi hole in Invulnerability tends to be overstated. I mean yeah, psi attacks suck, but they're not THAT common. Someone's analysis said 2% overall. That's a minor weakness, not a crippling "I can't play Invulnerability because it has a psi hole" weakness. Stock up on inspirations and use them liberally when playing against groups with psi.

Plus it has Dull Pain to cover the PSI hole.and now a days, alot of INV builds have some ranged defense in the build to protect from PSI a bit as well.

Yep yep yep. Dull Pain functions, in a sense, as extra resistance to all damage types. So in a sense, Invulnerability DOES have psi resistance included in the set. And you're going to take Weave, right? And probably Combat Jumping? And then a whole bunch of sets for typed resistances, which will give you a fair bit of positional defense as a side effect.

can you post your build for the dark/sonic defender?

Originally Posted by Nights_Dawn Hazy is right

Two things about this irk me. 1)defesne debuffs affect Res. sets as well. The more their lack of defense gets debuffed, the more they get hit, with more incoming attacks is more incoming damage. 2) While most "two-bit thugs" have a debuff secondary effect to there attack first the attack must hit, and second most only have a chance for -def, just because you get shot or stabbed doesn't mean you lose 7% defense.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.

Yeahbut.

Oversimplifying, someone at 45% defense is getting hit 5% of the time. Slap on a 45% debuff, and they're getting hit 50% of the time, or TEN TIMES more often. Someone at 0% defense is getting hit 50% of the time. Slap on the same 45% debuff, and they're getting hit 95% of the time, which is less than twice as often. A defense-based character suffers much more from defense debuffs than a resistance-based character.

Or at least they WOULD, if it weren't for defense debuff resistance. In practice, a top end Super Reflexes or Shield Defense will only suffer a 2.25% defense dubuff. They go from getting hit 5% of the time to 7.25% of the time, which is again less than twice as much, and actually better than the pure resistance character. And many people give themselves two or three percentage points of buffer. If you had 47.25% defense, that 45% defense debuff wouldn't even affect you yet. All it would do is remove your buffer.

Where defense debuffs REALLY hurt is on a defense-based non-SR non-SD character. For instance, on my soft-capped Katana/Dark Armor. A great deal of my survivability is tied up in being at the soft cap. I have no resistance to defense debuffs, so when they hit me, IT HURTS BAD. Mommy!!! Now, I still have decent hit points, 50% resistance and a 14 second recharge health reset button, but I'm not usually fighting groups where that's enough on its own. So if I get hit by any significant defense debuff, I have to run, and RIGHT NOW. Well, or pop a purple or two until those run out.

further adds to what I'm saying. Res. characters are just getting hit pure and simple and more so when defence is debuffed or against +tohit, defense based sets have some protection from their weakness.


Also to note, when Resistance sets are doing the "insane" things, its due to Defense from sets and pools (Werner, your Kat/Dark is a perfect example).

I've currently decided to work on a claw/ela and attempting to include as much +rech and s/l defense as possible.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.

That's certainly been my impression as well. I just don't see how you could get enough damage mitigation from pure resistance. You really need to add some defense too.

Sure...


I have most of this in the build sans the 1 PvP IO, and the Purple set (not lvl 50, and even then I only have 2 of the IOs for it so far), and missing a LotG, rest I have...but I had alot of this from my Dark/Ice Defender, who I got to 50 during Recipes at end of TFs, sooo...it's basically a cheap build for me. ^_^

Haven't been running out of END, and have been able to survive the second ITF mission, ambush spawns and take them out solo...sooo...loveing the build so far

This.

Please note, that even soloing AVs or TFs doesn't require the heights of power that people are often talking about on these boards. The Scrapper boards take min-maxing to the extreme sometimes. But I think everyone here recognizes that EVERY Scrapper is a powerhouse.

This.

As much as I love my /WP and /Regen and /INV toons, none of them compare to what I can do with my /SR toons.

lets recap:
defense gets defense debuff resistance and defense, and not all gun attacks lower defense like you say.

-def does little to builds that avoid 80% of it (10% i give for autohits) and resist 90% of what gets through.

**signifigant** defense debuffs are smaller in number. most defense debuffs come in the area of 1.5% which takes 3% mitigation away assuming you dont have DDR and dont dodge it, and only cimmys and warriors can stack it on fast enough to be meaningful without needing an x4 or bigger spawn. and +to hit hurts everyone when the game is balanced around the enemy missing half the time regardless of AT or powers.

I used a particular example to highlight a point, you found an exception to the rule deeper in a thread than I care to read (again, first mention of fire is on page two about dying) and are trying to stand on an exception as an answer to all issues plaguing all resist sets.

you claimed that resist + a lil defense is more survivable, I showed you this was a falicy with basic math, even ignoring that pool defense and set bonuses dont come with DDR.

you feel that I think resist sets should be "dominating pylon threads" and I havent stated anything like that, but more than 1 invul and a fire saying they got torn (in a thread about offensive rather than defensive benchmarking) would be nice to see before page 3.

You pointed me twords a post saying that 45% defense is substantially superior to 75% resistance and that a bunch of things both sets get access to (DPS, KD, Regen, Heals<regen and heals arent forms of mitigation btw>) make up the final picture.

so I ask you this; what's your end game here?

i dunno, invul gets a little DDR through tough hide, and part of its "defense" is -to hit, plus the psi hole can be filled well enough by impervium armor.

filling toxic holes on elec or fire on the other hand...

3% DEF and 3% Resistance to Psi from Impervium Armor is not really worth it IMO. My experience is it is much more survivable to not get hit at all vs. getting hit and resisting some of it. YMMV.

invincibility is +tohit, confusled with WP, tired.

its 1.88 def, and 3 res from one piece, with a 6 piece 3 res. 2 defense and 6 res, plus you are getting recovery and max end, those end additions are what make me real happy, I rarely go for the 6 piece, but with 4 you get 2 def to psi, 3 res to psi, 2.5 recovery and 2 max end. its nothing to sneeze at for covering the hole for sure.

it depends on the primary some, if you dont need a lot of picks there you can grab a ton of pool defense. stealth or cj with maneuvers and weave + invincibility along with the DDR in tough hide (id include the DEF but its canceled by unyielding) or telefoe tele CJ SS with 4 sets of BotZ, get l/s defense with kin com.

now youve got your typed cept psy covered, with a good chunk of ranged and AOE, use them imp armor and aegis peices in the resist powers, and youre golden.

Agreed. My Dark Melee/Super Reflexes has 1796 hit points, 18% smashing/lethal resistance, 9% fire/cold resistance, +362% regeneration, and Siphon Life slotted for +97% healing in a perma Hasten attack chain. The resistance stacks on top of the scaling resistance we get as Super Reflexes, which I think is more significant a factor than many people realize. I want to regenerate and heal constantly to be as close to my maximum hit points as possible with the highest possible resistance, because the gigantic hits WILL come, and WILL double or triple up, and otherwise they'll wipe me out. With base hit points and no resistance, you're just another squishy, because you WILL get hit, no matter how high your defense is.

And yeah, I used to run Invincible on him with my toggles off to make it more fun. In and of themselves, those hit points, that resistance, that regeneration, and Siphon Life are pretty huge. They're not AV soloing huge, but they're a major portion of the total package.

Yeah, my Inv tank's def build has capped or near capped FCEN & Ranged def, around 40% S/L def and capped S/L resists, all w/1 in range of Invinc (so really, easy to cap all typed def). Plus much +recharge (for DP), +HP & +regen. Now *that*'s layered mitigation. Sux about those non-positional psi attacks tho...

My DB/WP has capped S/L def, 53% S/L resists and 750% regen w/1 in range of RTTC. My Kat/Regen looks similar, though uses DA for more def (and many clicky mitigation through Regen). More layered mitigations.

My FA & DA scrappers (and tanks) have capped S/L def, med-to-good resists across the board (save psi for FA) and a fast heal. Oh, high regen & HPs too.

My SR has capped positionals (and a bit of buffer), pretty much maxed out def debuff resists, high regen & HPs and AS. SD looks similar, but w/low resistances scattered throughout. Not really scared of much, but is prone to unlucky streaks. This is what separates the def-based sets from the res sets--you're more prone to unlucky streaks (WP/Regen also suffer from this a bit).

Bottom line, I like all my scrappers (and tanks), but I tend to prefer the resist based sets which you can then max out the def on, esp since they come w/a pretty kicka** heal (well, FA & DA do anyway). But as I alluded to before, if you're looking for the highest DPS builds, you can't afford to slot for +def, so SR or SD will often be your best bets for max survivability while minimizing your pylon times or whatever.

Are you stating that 1.5% as the magnitude of the base debuff? Because I don't believe that's correct. Most debuffs from mobs, including those from bullets, are on the order of 8% to 10% from a single hit.

The AT mod for critter defense debuff looks like this:

• Minion: 0.8
• LT: 1.0
• Boss: 1.0

Most of the defense debuff powers that we encounter have a 1.0 scale debuff effect. Here's an example of a Family Minion's machine gun attack. Here's Tsoo Katana/Hack.

Edit: And naturally, those are the even-level values. For +1 to +5 enemies, this increase from 1.11x to 1.55x as strong.

While I don't have nearly enough expertise to argue def vs. res with you guys, this is something I'm seeing in this thread a bit. About a year or so ago, Castle made some major buffs to Invuln. End drain resist in REn, Slow resists in REl, and *def debuff resists* in RPD. Plus def debuff in Tough Hide. Also, he removed the -def from Unyeilding, and changed the way Invince works a small bit, so that when you have both Tough Hide and Invince combined, you actually end up with a tiny amount more defense than before the changes (but when approaching the softcap, even tiny amounts can make all the difference).

It's easier to approach the soft cap for s/l and to a lesser extent f/c/e/n now than it ever was before. And now that Invuln has 2 sources of def debuff resists, it's easier to maintain that high defense, as well.

~JP